I'm reading about contact

[laura jeanne]

I'm reading Right From the Start and there is an interesting discussion about contact and how the rider's arms should be positioned. There are some pictures and exercises that show how when your arm is in the right position, that is your upper arm hanging straight down, your elbow is actually behind your body a little so the middle of your forearm is really the part that is touching your sides.

It says that if your arms are like this, you can actually relax your shoulders, arms, elbows and hands and so it is easier to follow the horse's movements. Also (never thought of this) if your arms are anything forward of this, not only does it cause tension, but the weight of your arms is added to the contact.

I do like this book as far as I've read!

[wanabe]

That makes sense to me, but my RI insists on me shortening the reins so much that I can't do that. When I discuss this with her she says my arms must be held forward so that I can pull back on the reins when necessary.

[Bay Mare]

Maybe I'm getting the image wrong but you shouldn't have your elbows behind your body, that is not only unnatural but you cannot comfortably do that without causing tension. This will also block you if you try to keep your arms in this position so your contact won't be elastic.

Pulling back on the reins is equally wrong, the movement is in the 'sponging' of the fingers ... think that you're squeezing a sponge.

[Tangle]

Hmm - I think trying to get your elbows behind your body and keep them there would lead to tension, which wouldn't be good. My interpretation would be that, if you have an absolutely perfect upper body then if your shoulders are completely relaxed, a photo from the side would show your elbows to be slightly behind your body.

I wonder if it's a paragraph written after dealing with a lot of riders that have been taught to "keep their elbows by their sides", and have interpreted that as "elbows locked to ribs"? I do find that, in halt, my forearm (rather than my elbow) touches my hip.

I think the important thing to take away is that your shoulder should be relaxed with your upper arm dropping straight down without tension - exactly where that puts your arm in relation to your upper body depends on your conformation and position at the time :)

wanabe - that sounds a bit worrying, to be honest! Has she explained why you need to be permanently prepared to pull back on the reins? What are you meant to be achieving when you pull back? Seems a bit strange :confused:

[laura jeanne]

Maybe I'm getting the image wrong but you shouldn't have your elbows behind your body, that is not only unnatural but you cannot comfortably do that without causing tension. This will also block you if you try to keep your arms in this position so your contact won't be elastic.

.

What I mean is that in the relaxed state, with your arms bent, your elbows will stick out a little behind you from a side view. As Tangle says, your forearm would be touching your sides. There is no tension at all.

Wanabe, same here with my former instructor. I thought it had something to do with a hunter/jumper position but since then, someone has told me that's not true.

[wanabe]

Hmm, sitting here in my chair (and I think it would be the same in the saddle), with my shoulders and arms relaxed, my elbows are at my sides and my forearms are in front of that (obviously). My hands are also too far apart and I have 2 choices to get them closer to each other: 1) Just bring them closer together by pointing my forearms in or 2) Bringing my elbows forward/inward. I suspect that 2) is correct and this would bring the elbows forward of the body.

Tangle, I never asked my RI, but I assume she wants me to be able to do half or full halts. Surely to do those there's a definite pullback/release and not just a closing/opening of the fingers. (?)

[Peace]

I never asked my RI, but I assume she wants me to be able to do half or full halts. Surely to do those there's a definite pullback/release and not just a closing/opening of the fingers. (?)

I was taught to ask for halt by closing my legs on the horse and not "giving" her the reins - the RI would say "sit down, close your legs,close your hands." But she meant to "sponge" as said above, not execute a death grip:o as I had an unfortunate tendency to do at first.;)

But pulling backwards was a cardinal sin.:eek:

[Stella2]

Ideally, asking for halt should be done by closing the fingers more on the outside rein, stilling your seat and closing the legs to push the horse on into the contact. That said if you are riding school horses they may have become desensitised with so many different riders of different ability, so unfortunately you may find that you can't halt like that.

Also there is a place for pulling back, though it is rare ;) Pulling back is only for if a horse ignores the correct aids and runs off with you. In that situation having control is the most important thing. In those circumstances, you would have problems if your elbows were already behind your body. Therefore, your instructor is correct given that she is teaching inexperienced riders, although it would be good if she had explained that in more detail. That is not the whole story though, because if you take a solid pull with a horse that is running off, it may not stop them, but just encourage them to pull against you :eek: So even then you need to give and take (pull, give, pull, give) on the rein.

For anything other than being run off with though, pulling back should never be done.

[laura jeanne]

Wanabe, are you sitting up straight?? If you are, raise your forearms to be parallel to the ground and take a couple of deep breaths and let them out to relax your shoulders. Now keep one arm still and put the other behind your back and see if you can feel your elbow sticking out just a bit behind you.

I stop my horse (from a walk) in 3 strides: stop moving my seat, sit up tall, LIFT the reins a couple of inches. It takes a little practice but I can do it. My RI can ride the horse I've been riding in my lesson without any reins at all.!!!

[wanabe]

Okay LJ, yes I can feel it projecting slightly behind my side -- so you're correct.

Not only does my RI want my hands forward so that I can pull back (yes, always pull and quickly release) but she told me to do this every 5th pace in canter to keep my lesson horse from speeding up uncontrollably. Since this has worked and kept me out of the hospital, I'm sold on doing it!!!

[Tangle]

My hands are also too far apart and I have 2 choices to get them closer to each other: 1) Just bring them closer together by pointing my forearms in or 2) Bringing my elbows forward/inward. I suspect that 2) is correct and this would bring the elbows forward of the body.
Your upper body and upper arms need to be relaxed and without tension - if that means your elbows are wider than your hands need to be, you need to go with option (1) - I always figured the "straight line from bit to elbow" applied from the side but also from the top (although I could be wrong on that...).

Bear in mind that what you're being taught may be relevant to just this one horse (although I agree, staying out of hospital is always good :p). Are there any other options for horses that might be more sensitive? I was taught as Stella has described - your "standard issue" brakes are your seat and weight - pulling on the reins is very much an emergency measure.

Teaching beginners must be so tough - to some degree you NEED a desensitized horse so that the rider's lack of control doesn't get them bucked off. But keep them on that horse too long and they only learn to ride "beginner" horses.

[wanabe]

(Sorry, LJ, about hijacking your thread. :o )

Tangle, no, I think this horse is my only reasonable option at this school. I've spent the last year (yeah, I just noticed it's been this long!) learning to canter him without him getting dangerously fast) but think I've got that sorted out now. The last 2 lessons I've had time left over to do some jumps so I'm in a positive mood now. :)

But, I do feel that I would be able to sit up straight better if I could hold my arms back some. My RI doesn't brook much objection to her methods, though, and she wants a very short rein. Unless I were to leave this RS (which isn't even close to happening) I guess I'll have to stay with what she says.

[SailleCinza]

Wanabe, a correctly executed half-halt is stronger than pulling back on the reins can ever be. And a correctly executed half-halt involves NO PULLING. Pulling back is just pulling on the horse's face, even if the horse has been trained to slow down in response.

Although there are variations on the half-halt, here's your run-of-the-mill one that I use: Your hands do not even move - assuming you ride on contact, you just tighten up your stomach and create a momentary tension in your elbows while letting your seat move freely and closing your legs. (If you don't normally ride on contact you'll need to pick up a moderate contact for a little less than a second while half-halting.) Depending on the intensity of the tension in your stomach and elbows and how hard you squeeze with your legs, you can make a little hesitation in your horse's gait or cause your horse to "hit the wall" of your aids and rock backwards as if a monster jumped out in front of him. (Useful for stopping a runaway)

Your biceps aren't as strong as your core muscles, and when aiding are both cruder and more unstable. Plus a half-halt influences a horse's hindquarters - where all motion begins and ends, whereas pulling back on the horse's face only slows him down if he is conditioned to do so because he knows that if he doesn't slow you'll pull harder, causing him pain and throws him off balance. This isn't cruel at all - it's just not as effective or useful as a half-halt, which can actually change the balance of your horse for the better and allows him change gait/direction without losing his balance.

As for pulling back being the only way to slow the schoolhorse you ride, I challenge you to execute a strong half-halt instead of pulling back. I'll think you'll find it works even better. I've tried pulling back on the horse that I ride, and she just pulls her head back and keeps going fast. (It works if I put my back into it, but this is rudimentary half-halt and I get the same results using my back without pulling back, so why pull back and get all the negative effects?)

[galadriel]

The method of tightening the reins until your arms are out in front of you is based on the idea that your elbows should be at your sides or in front. When you realize that your arms should swing where you need them to go--which includes behind the vertical as well as in front--it gives you much more relaxation to your arms and elbows, and allows you to follow the horse's head much better.

Indeed, pulling back on the reins is unnecessary in most normal riding. However, as the horse moves, his head swings left, right, forward, and back. To keep a contant "touch" on his mouth, your arm needs to be able to swing in rhythm with his head. This means moving your arms forward and backward. If your neutral position is hanging "straight" down at your sides, then your arm will sometimes swing out in front of you, and sometimes behind you.

If your arms are locked by too-short reins, you'll be unable to follow the motion of the horse's head accurately. You won't be able to maintain that consistent contact. This makes it very difficult to use subtle signals like squeezes on the rein--the horse can't really tell what's a squeeze and what's just your hand being still while his head moves around. So when your reins are too short, you do often have to pull in order to use the reins, instead of simply squeezing/"sponging" for good effect.

A relaxed, soft arm is much more gentle and easy on the rider, but also MUCH more effective on the reins as well. You'reable to use much more quiet signals, the horse can feel them better, and he's more able to respond to them in a relaxed and balanced manner (as you're signaling him instead of yanking him around).