Need some input

[LMS]

Hey folks!
I need you guys to brainstorm with me. I'm not looking to be told if I'm doing things right or wrong because things are coming along quite nicely.

What I'm looking for is in a similar situation, what approach did you take that did and didn't work for you.

Here's a bit of background:

"P" is a 5yr old recently gelded registered Paint. My client bought him at a ranch that is known as being questionable. Client is green but at least is sensible enough to have become a volunteer at our stable in order to learn more about horses. So good for her, she is a very sensible person and is doing quite well in my lessons.

I was approached to help train the horse as it started to have issues one week after coming home. Knowing where this horse came from, I'm very confident that the horse was drugged & ridden until exhausted prior to the viewing. Common practice at this establishment. (Anything for a sale)

All right now. This horse is very intelligent! I'll give him that! In the right hands, he will become a wonderful mount, but in the wrong hands, he is already displaying unwanted behaviour.

When I first met P, he tried his best to intimidate & push around. Threatened to bite & kick whenever anything was asked of him.

In one session (1hr), I was able to pick up all 4 feet, lead him around & tack him up. It took the full hour for him to realize that he wasn't going to win.

The tack seem to fit well, it sits nicely, lots of clearance, no shifting & even sweat marks on both sides. I asked for them to fix the bridle (too big), which they did.

I asked for the vet to look at his movement, flexibility, his back & hooves. For the farrier to come asap as his feet were in a horrible state. There was slight thrush in the right hind and a hole near the coronet band on the left hind. As well he had trauma to the front teeth. (Blunt hit that broke one)

Vet saw no evidence of stiffness but showed suppling exercises to client & pulled wolf teeth. Farrier on the other hand, not impressed with him. Will need to find a different one.

This horse behaves like a cocky teen that is trying to find his place in hiarchy. I know that he is young, impressionable, confused but a quick learner and already displays wonderful qualities as a bombproof horse (nothing phases him).

Like I said, when he is asked something, he kicks out with his right hind. The bitting has stopped after my second session with him and as long as you clean his hooves on a regular basis, he now complies.

He's now learning not to crowd the handler. Which is coming along slowly but at least progressing. He responds very well to praise and seeks it!

I'm teaching him to lunge, and tonight he finally was able to stay 3' away from me for 1/2 a circle. We even managed a few steps of trot. Which he's been refusing to do since she bought him.

On his back, asking him to walk on: he kicks out. Trying to lead him: he opens his mouth. So I got on him. I gave him one very light squeeze & voice command, he kicked. I asked once more and told him to think about it. Yes I actually said: "Aye, think about it" in a slow but firm voice. And he thought (ears back) but walked on. If given time, he walks on, if asked for immediate action, he kicks.

Asking him to keep walking is the same reaction.

So, I will try a different saddle (my wintec and my western), I will try a different bit (loose ring snaffle & hopefully a french link. Have to get it first;) ), he now has a thick eggbutt. I will try a gel pad (gotta get one too) or a thicker pad.

Even though tonight he was in a mood, we did accomplish quite a bit. We did have an argument in the begining & "P" got put back in his place. Like I said if he doesn't want to do something, he'll kick. And getting my head kicked at because he doesn't want to keep his foot up for cleaning, is not going to be tolerated.

At the end, we had a happier & participating horse & ended on a good note.

So, what's your experience?

[Bay Mare]

It sounds to me like you're going in the right direction. Things are getting better so you're doing something right :)

If it were me I would carry on with the groundwork and as you know, consistency is the key. As dominant as Saff is she is a pleasure to handle now though she will still try and push the boundaries if she can. It's not naughtiness, it's just her nature, it also tells me that she's 'behaving' because she wants to not because I've forced her into it! Character I think that it's called :)

I would probably go down the barefoot route too, not only because it's easier to deal with thrush etc when they're barefoot but from a safety angle. I'd rather be hit with an unshod foot than one with a shoe on! I've been double barrelled by a horse with shoes on and it HURT.

I've also found that clicker training has been good for Saff. She responds well to it and it gives her something to think about (usually ways to get the treat!). It focuses them and is a positive form of feedback which has to be pleasurable. I like to give her things to make her brain work, she picks things up (that she wants to pick up!) very easily so it gives me the opportunity to teach her something new without having an actual 'training' session.

I do groundwork too which she responds well to but can get bored of easily. I have to make sure that I know when to stop!

I would bring the owner in on the sessions so that she is aware how to behave with a dominant horse. I know that if I let Saff have an inch she'll try to take the mile! I don't have a problem with her having an opinion, I want her to have an opinion but I don't want her trying to bulldoze me. She has to know the boundaries and I have to be careful to be scrupulously consistent with her. I know when I've been slack because she becomes more forceful!

Anyway ... it sounds to me like you're doing a good job :) Keep on doing what you're doing and we do expect a progress report AND piccies!

[Cheeky]

Wow .. sounds like you're doing all the correct moves :)

I do have a question though ..

When you're on the ground doing some ground work, and he kicks out - do you give any punishment for this reaction? If so, what?

Good luck!!

[LMS]

Yes, the correct moves (looks about to find hard wood to knock on). Yes, so far so good with "P". He is a sweet boy but already knows how to get his way with intimidation.

Like I've mention frequently, I'm going on 30yrs here of being involved with horses and I guess have developed a reputation of working with horses that need help & understanding. Or in other words: retraining.

You asked how I handle his kicking on the ground. I handle it differently depending on what brought it on.

Like last session: he was in a cranky mood to start with and handn't been handled (the feet anyways) for a few days.

When his owner asked & cleaned the front hooves, he kept wanting to paw. His whole body & face showed annoyance. But she didn't reprimand him.

I was holding on with the lead rope, and strongly said stop it with a sharp tug. Not good enough. He did it again so I verbally said in a stronger voice stop it and smacked him on the shoulder of the pawing leg, siultaneously. He stopped right away, I praised him right away. So that was the end of pawing.

I went to pick up the hind (his owner is very intimidated by this), and he insisted that he didn't feel like it. Of course you just go with the flow & cradle the hoof & follow movement as well as saying ho hooo (kind of like singing). Then the kicks came in (he is barefoot BTW). Right away I smacked him with my hand on the thigh & strongly barked "NO".

Not good enough. Then it dawned on me that it was quite a while since I'd swichted the order of picking up hooves. Clever boy, didn't like the change. So I went on the other side, he tried to kick; smack/bark & good boy because he stopped his silliness.

Now back to the right hind. Good boy, he picked it up, I'm almost done cleaning then "smack" the leg kicks out. I guess I'd run out of my aloted time with this little prince:D This time he meant business as he aimed fo my head (I was expecting something like that), right away I growled a strong loud "Stop it!" and smacked him with my hand on the belly.

He finally got the hint, but now was going in circles so I started stroking him & talking softly to him. Once he saw that our little argument was over, he settled, lowered his head & I rubbed him all over telling him he was a good boy.

Went back to finish cleaning the hoof: no problems.

So as you can see, if he says: no I don't really want to. I reply equally with: yes I really think you should. If he yells: No I don't feel like it! I yell back: it's in your best interest to smarten up! Action:reaction.

If that had been my mare Heidi when I first had her, that approach would've been all wrong because she was scared. If you came near her front, she bit, if you came near her back end, she kicked. All in defence because of fear.

With her, I just talked soothingly, and each time she'd lash out, I'd just move out of the way, and continue reassuring her until there was a minute progression. Which I would then fuss over her verbally & retreat. Lot's of patience with her.

[LMS]

Sorry about the dissertation guys:o Hello? Did you all fall asleep? Uh Oh!

Bay Mare: Yes, everything with him is done consistently. I repeat the same order each session, so he knows what we will be doing. From there I ask a little more, if it happens, great, if not, no biggy & we move off to the next step, then get back to the previous to see if he got it. If he truly does not understand, I back off. If he's being an ignorant pig about it: I insist!

Fortunatly he isn't shod!

P is very insecure in a way (well he is still immature at 5) as he likes to stay close. Yesterday was a big step for him as I said, he managed to stay 3' away from me on the lunge. (I had to face the same way he was going though, the minute I'd place my body in the regular lunging position, he'd come in.) So everytime he would come back into my space, I'd just push him away with my hand on his neck & say "away". (I usually say "out")

With him it's not totally a lack of respect as he's always looking for a reward (ear rubbing from me. Go figure) the moment he knows he did something that I've asked for.

Funny you should mention that Saff likes to pick up things; so does P. I've never tried clicker training. I just might look into that. I will suggest to the owner to go get him a horse ball that he can play with. I think he'd enjoy that.

I usually have the session in three sections: 1: ground work/teaching to lunge. 2: short review of ground work in the saddle. 3: miscellaneous: such as massage, bathing, questions or concerns the owner may have etc.

My client & a lot of the time, her family as well, are present each session in order to learn and practice. Everything is done at the horse's & owner's pace. I told them that it can take time, horses are not on a schedule like we are. He's young & hopefully will be with them for a good 20yrs. Every question they ask; I give an honest answer & explain it until they are satisfied & understand the why's.

Saff seems to have similarities with P. I'm glad you posted, thanks.

As for pictures, I'm not sure, it's not my horse so confidentiality comes into play. I will ask permission as P is a very beautiful horse! (inside & outside).

He's mostly white but the big brown splashes are a bright blood bay.

[Mehitabel]

sounds like you're doing the right thing. he has obviously learned to fight, his first reaction is 'make me then' when you ask. the ridden issues are just the same - he is expecting to fight so he is starting one so he has the upper hand in it, it's on his terms. same as you're doing onthe ground, just firm butfar and black and white about what is good boy and what isn't.

[Bay Mare]

With regards to the feet/legs issue our EP used clicker training for issues like this very successfully.

I was very sceptical about clicker, didn't like it, couldn't see the point because I'd seen it being done incorrectly. Once I saw it in action I was 'wow' and have played with it ever since. I have to admit that I don't do it 'correctly' by the book but have tailored it to the Saffster. I actually find that she responds better to the clicker on the lunge than she does to the lunge whip (which she completely disregards even if you get the body language right!). I'm HOPING to try it out under saddle as it's something that she's hooked into and responds to :)

Mehitabel - that's a real lightbulb moment (hate that phrase) and has shed some light on our occasional ridden issues!

[BeachRiding]

It must be a five year old thing, I am going through similar issues!