contact... (again)...don't shoot me

[elenapopov]

I am really confused
I've been searching the internet for articles about contact and what you are supposed to do with your hands while riding. I've found tons of contradictory information.
1. Some people say that your hands have to follow the horse's head, as a pair: kind of forward-backward movement while walking and cantering (because the horse's head moves forth and back in these gaits), and stay in place while trotting because in trot the head does not move back and forth
2. Some people say that the hands have to receive the energy of horse's hind legs on each side: when the right hind hits the ground, you have to squeeze the right rein, when the left hind hits the ground, you have to squeeze the left rein in order to "receive what the horse puts in your hand" and then quickly release in order to "give back to the horse what he has just put in your hand"
3. Some people argue against method 1 and say that the hands should stay in one place, because otherwise, if you allow the back-forth movement in the head, the horse will use his head and neck to counterbalance your weight and he will be carring you with the force of his neck and not with the force on his hind legs
4. Some people say that the elbows have to be connected to the hips/seat, and the bit has to be the most forward point of the seat. So the elbows, and hands consequently, will move each with its own seat bone/hip, independently.
5. Some people say that the elbows, and hands, have to be absolutely indepentent of the seat and hips
6. Then there is the "circle of the aids", which sais that everything has to be connected
7. Then there is the "no contact" theory
8. Then there is the "10 lbs in each hand" theory
And then there is Cleo, who has a mind of her own, and I have to learn how to control her, but I really am against yanking and pulling, especially on both reins in the same time
And then there is the guy who told me: "if the horse really wants to go somewhere, and I mean not just testing you to see what happens, he will go, because he is stronger than you; and he has an almost 350° vision, and he can move forwards even with his head at your boot" (very encouraging...)

I really don't know what to think, but I would like to know what exactly is the right thing to do with your hands and elbows, how to follow the horse's head, and how to make the horse go where you want even if he wants to go somewhere else

[Mehitabel]

ok...
1 - this is pretty much what i do. my hands follow the horse's head with a light contact - horse knows i am there, but i am not actiuvely pulling, think of it as the difference between holding someone's hand and crushing their fingers.

2 - i had one instructor who taught this way. it never really clicked for me mentally, but the horse i used to ride with her seemed to respond well to it. it is a very subtle thing - a thought of squeezing rather than an active movement.

3 - the horse *needs* to be able to move its head and neck for its own balance. it shouldn't lean on you, but there is no reason that following its head movement will make it lean on you. i don;lt really understand what is being said here about carryign with the horse of its neck. can you clarify what thes people are saying?

4 - i think this ties in with 2.

5 - i want my hands to follow the horse, not my body. if i am doing rising trot, for instance, i don;t want my hands to rise as my seat does - i want them to follow the head and stay still.

6 - yes =- you creat energy with your legs and control and channel it with seat and hands - this doesn't contradict having independent hands.

7 - i dont; like this, i think of the contact as a line of communication. i don;t wantto suddenly surprise the horse by asking something, i prefer to alweasy have the contact there. again the hand-holding analogy, you can hld a hand and subtly squeeze it, or you can not hold the hand and then tap or grab it, which can be surprising.

8 - not terribly comfy for the horse.

the horse *can* do what it wants - a bit doesn't stop the legs moving, only the brain can do that. so when we communicate with the bit, we ned to remember we are talking, giving signals - not actually influencing the horse's body. the horse must understand and decide to obey.

[elenapopov]

Mehitabel, thank you for your reply. Helped me get a more clear image of what is going on. I've been thinking about it again and again, and it seems that it also depends on the way the horse has been trained (and now you have confirmed it).
Maybe its also a matter of attitude. My RI (who also trained his horses whom I ride now) says that you have to relax and enjoy yourself and then the horse will feel safe and secure with you, and will not want to leave you. (Easy to say...)

[elenapopov]

3 - the horse *needs* to be able to move its head and neck for its own balance. it shouldn't lean on you, but there is no reason that following its head movement will make it lean on you. i don;lt really understand what is being said here about carryign with the horse of its neck. can you clarify what thes people are saying?


here's the link:
http://www.classicaldressage.co.uk/contact.html
(copy/paste it in the "adress" zone of your browser if it doesn't work)

I think it's the 5th paragraph (the one about steady contact)

[Afellpony]

When we're just walking I hold his reins lightly with slightly open hands, so as they are just resting there. If I want to change paces or change the speed or activity in walk, then I squeeze on the reins to let him know that I'll be asking him to do something different. The way I hold the reins when I work him is different to when we're just going round the farm for an 'informal spin'. He knows the difference. When we're working I have a light contact on the reins and I try to push him up into that contact. He's beginning to take the contact and is working nicely now - but, of course he cant hold the position for too long as he's still young. I dont like rushing horses - we have all the time in the world.

[Afellpony]

When people say 'youre carrying the horse' it means that the horse is on its forehand and is leaning on your hands, thereby holding itself up. That is why when you ride a horse that's on the forehand, it is so heavy in your hands and makes your arms ache. You need to keep the contact but drive the horse forwards with your legs (may be a tap with the whip). You need to bring the head up off the ground (not stuck up in the air) and drive him forwards. The horse should use his 'rear engine' to propel himself along, not the front one!!! Lots of twists and turns whilst schooling should also help with this but make sure you push your horses quarters up into a slightly resisting hand (to control the energy) and so it doesn't all go out the 'front door'!!!!!!!! Hope this helps.

[Mehitabel]

Steady means still relative to the horse not the ground. Once a horse is past the early backing and customisation phase on No Account should the hands row back and forth with the horse’s neck movement. A horse who “bobs” his head up and down is using his neck as a lever to drag himself along on his forehand. This excess movement ceases and “ripples” can be seen in the horse’s neck muscles when he thrusts and carries from behind into an elastic contact.

i don't agree with the bit i've put in italics. the horse's head always moves at walk, regardless of level of training. i've never heard it suggested anywhere else or by any instructor that it should stop moving at walk as the horse gets more expereinced.

i#ll ask my instructor though, if she's ever heard of this and what she trhinks.

[elenapopov]

Thank you, Afellpony, what you say makes sense to me. My main problem now is that I have never been taught anything about hands and contact, other then pull on the left rein if you want to go left, and pull on both reins if you want to stop, and if the horse is desobeying, take stronger contact :eek: (which makes me very tense). This kind if pulling doesn't work with the horses I am currently riding (btw, you can see my other thread I posted several days ago about what is happening, it's called "mixed feelings"). I've been working on my seat and legs lately, and people say I have made some progress (thanks to NR forum :) ), so now I have to sort out my hands before I can move on to more serious and refined work.

[elenapopov]

Yes, Mehitabel, that bit also didn't sound good to me. Would be interesting to know what other people think...