treats while schooling

[elenapopov]

Can a horse pick a bad habit because of feeding treats while schooling?

If a horse finally does what you wanted him to do, and you know it is not a peace of cake for him, and you want to reward him, is it wrong to give him a carrot and walk him on loose rein to let him relax?
I do not mean bribing the horse, I mean really rewarding him for a well done job while still in the arena, immediatly after the job, and not only after the lesson.

[KateWooten]

You should always reward the horse for trying, and getting it right. The first, simplest reward is the release of pressure. Next up, you could reward by release of pressure, and a rub and some verbal praise. Then next stage, release of pressure, pet, god boy, and rest for 30 seconds. Then, all the same and a 3 minute break. Biggest reward I use is getting off and going home. Sometimes this means a long walk for me :D ( I can use the exercise ) .. like the other day, joe did a perfect creek crossing, on his own, with the older horse behind him. He did is slowly and carefully and as he reached the other bank, I leapt off him loosened his girth, petted him, let him eat (grass) and then led him home.

It's not 'wrong' to give them food rewards when working together ... it's much better than ignoring his try that's for sure ! But it's probably better for you to focus on being so very aware of when you are putting pressure on him ( a touch of rein, a squeeze with your leg ) and when he is responding, so that you get your pressure-release timing really good - that's what the horse learns from best - the release.

There are unfortunate side-effects from the treats thing - with a smart pony, they know for sure when they've put in a great effort. iIt is embarrasing to have your horse enter the dressage ring perfectly for the first time ever, execute a perfect halt, and as you salute, he insists on biting your boot for his carrot.

[Trewsers]

a perfect halt, and as you salute, he insists on biting your boot for his carrot.


lol:D the school horse I used to have lessons on used to love to try and get your boot in his mouth - wonder if the poor lad was just looking for his treat????!:p :D

[joey_olop]

I always give my horse a treat whilst schooling if he does something right-he is very food orientated lol!!! He knows it as well and makes him do things for me more :)

[BeachRiding]

ditto kate! Some horses work really well with treats, other become naughty,even dangerous.

[elenapopov]

Thank you for your replies
The reason I asked...
This is what I tried with Cleo:
After having an "evrika" moment a week ago, when she finally relaxed, I decided to move a tiny-little step further on Saturday. I decided to try the warm-up with a slack in the reins and lots of driving forward. I have never tried this before with her because of her napping and speeding up, and my RI telling me to shorten the reins. Ofcoarse at that moment I did not give myself any chance of having any success, but still decided to give it a try. And it worked. After a while she began to relax and listen. It was not perfect, but I think it was the best she could offer at that moment. After approx 15 minutes I was soooo pleased with her and I just wanted to reward her somehow for that relaxation, I halted, I rubbed her neck, I talked to her, and then I gave her a carrot, well, actually, I made her take the carrot by bringing her nose to my boot. (Worth mentioning, she is not very flexible, she finds it very hard to do circles or tight turns, but apparently she didn't mind some flexion in order to get something).
She is a very smart girl, she got the idea quickly, so the rest of the lesson she was much more controllable and we both were much more relaxed. I gave her carrots on other 3 occasions in the same lesson, particularly when it was time to leave the arena (according to her...) and she was about to begin her napping routine, I got her to the far end of the arena and worked on some halt-walk-halt transitions there, and she was rewarded for being obedient and focused on me. (I wonder, was this wrong?)
On Sunday I repeated all that. This time she entered the arena quitely and relaxed almost immediately (which had never happened before). Ofcoarse, the lesson did not look like training of the next year GP champion, but the important thing to me was that I could control her much better and she was more focused on me than on other horses.
Also, I do not give her carrots in the same spot, but usually I choose places far from the gate. Nor do I give her carrots at every halt. And she gets a carrot only after being rubbed and praised verbally.
Then someone told me that I should stop all this feeding in the arena immediatly, because she will start halting instead of going forward, and that only if you are schooling the horse to perform some really difficult dressage movements, you are entitled to give him a treat. And I went home feeling like I have done something terribly wrong, although these two lessons were the best in my life up till now.
Still, I would like to stick to the carrots, and will be very careful that she understands precisely what she is rewarded for, and that she does not get them "for free".

[PromiseMe]

I have to admit that I also give treats to my mare when schooling her.
And sometimes, she will turn aruond to ask for a treat. Which definitely isn't good, as mentioned:
execute a perfect halt, and as you salute, he insists on biting your boot for his carrot.

However, I do find that the mare understands the whole treat concept. There was one jump taht she refused 20 times... and she finaly got over it, I did feel the *need* to reward her greatly for it :)
And next time, she popped over it perfectly.

[KateWooten]

Then it sounds like you're doing everything right. You know your horse - you know when she's making a special effort for you ... and you know what the obvious dangers are ... then you just avoid them and you can't go wrong. 'Really difficult dressage movements' Pah - what she's doing for you IS really difficult dressage movements for her ! So she's entitled to whatever reward you see fit.

It is also perfectly acceptable to reward the good behaviour at one end of the school, even if the exercise was prompted by the napping at the other end. You're rewarding the right response. Same as when you're approaching a scary creek crossing. The horse might back up 15 paces, but you still rub and reward him for his one step forward. You don't wait til he's back where he started AND one step forward before telling him 'yes that's right'.

I think some people get a little too fixed in their thinking of what is and isn't 'the right way'. Obviously, it's good to ask about if you're going to do something unorthodox, in case there's a hidden problem you haven't thought about ... but in general, if it works for you, and your horse, and it helps you communicate to her, then it's along the right lines.

[capalldubh]

I'd recommend you have a look at clicker training - I've been using it with the mare I ride, and she knows she doesn't get a treat until she hears the click, so she doesn't stop what she's doing in anticipation of a treat. Also, some people use rewards other than carrots (I do use carrots when riding myself), such as a good scratch or even "good girl", but if you're using with a click, you need to spend some time in advance letting the horse learn that the click means "yes, thank you, you did what I wanted" and that the reward will follow it.

It's the best way to avoid grabby horses on the ground, and has been working well for me ridden. I've not tried using it for schooling yet (mainly for not napping and going forward when she used to stop), but I suspect there is a way.

You could have a look at the Alexandra Kurland book "Riding with the Clicker" if you're interested.

(p.s. what you're doing already is what's called Operant Conditioning, and is the basis of clicker training - but the click is the part that helps prevent your horse asking for treats at inappropriate times).

[elenapopov]

Thank you a lot for your replies
Made me feel much better! :)
capalldubh, will do readings re clicker training
Will try to find some spots where she likes to be scratched, I have tried the whithers, but apparently she does not pay any attention to that, will try harder :) .
She does like when I talk to her, and I don't think that many people have ever done that, so she becomes very interested in me when I start talking to her, and she seems to know when I am talking to her or to somebody else. I think she is willing to offer me her attention as long as I offer her mine. She hates when I look somewhere else, actually I have spoiled quite a few lessons by being distracted by "the view".
Besides, she understands the intonation of my voice, and knows the difference between a firm "no", a "good girl", and a "whoa". I do use verbal rewards now, and they work, but I wanted to reward her with something "extra" for the relaxation and attention, so that she knows that it is what I really want. Besides, as I have read, horses are curious by their nature and it is kind of hard for them to concentrate on the same thing for long periods of time, and it was particularly true in this case.

Thanx for listening and aswering
Really helpful