New Worming Programme- urgent help appreciated

[SJ]

As some of you know my two ponies have been kept at livery for 3 years and were wormed by the yard owner, who is old school but also very experienced and also bred one of my ponies. When I brought them home I was told they had been wormed every 6 weeks alternating between Panacur and Equivalen powder and this is what I should continue to do. When I went to buy wormer I was told that this wouldn't do the job and there were modern systems which were better. (Actually both ponies are in great shape, glossy and well and always have been.)

Anyway I am about to let a couple of boxes to DIY liveries and need to set up our own yard worming programme. Please could someone, PONYVET perhaps? give me an idea of a suitable modern worming programme with names of products, dates through the year when they should be given first for my 12.2hh ponies and then for say 14hh and 16hh horses. Also what should I insist newcomers to the yard are wormed with on arrival?

Your help would be really appreciated.

Many thanks
Sara Jane

[Speedy]

I won't be as much help as ponyvet, but I can tell you what I do. I like the newish product Equest - it lasts 13weeks, dissolves easily in their mouth and is supposed to have an effect on encysted redworm. I worm early Jan, then double dose with Strongid P in April - 6 weeks later worm again with Equest. Double dose again with Strongid P end of August, Equest again early Oct and then equest Jan etc etc.

Personally I would ask any new liveries to worm on arrival and keep the horse in for 24hrs. Remove droppings from the field if poss. I would also start your own horses now - they can all go on the same programme, just vary quantities depending on weight. Also, insist that all liveries worm at the same time as you.

Hope this is ok to be going on with - ponyvet is sure to add some more for you.

[heland]

All the horses at our yard are wormed with strongid p and equest.
They all get wormed together.

I agree with speedy......if a new horse comes to the yard it is wormed straight away and kept away from the others for 24 hours. Also your field management is vital.

[Lgd]

I have used Equest (moxidectin) but after some reports of neurological problems in the USA I have stopped using it until things are a bit clearer about the problem.

My routine is Double dose strongid-P in september follwed by Panacur 5-day guard six weeks later. I then worm with Furexel or Eqvalan or Eraquel (ivermectin) at the recommended interval the rest of the year. You do get worm resistance with bendazole wormers but it does not seem to be a problem with ivermectin. Many people recommend rotating wormers on an annual basis. I have never done this and when I had a paranoid moment about it and checked worm counts they were zero, so I've stuck to what I'm doing.

[Piaffe]

The many vets who visit our yard are quite against Equest. We have had a worming programme worked out for us by one of the vets, which all of us stick to. The yard owner buys the correct wormer at the correct time for all of us, so she knows we've all wormed our horses.

Speak to your vet - he/she will be able to draw up a worming programme for you - you can then post a copy up somewhere everyone can see it and also post reminders nearer the worming times. This is what we've done for some time and it works very well. It also ensures we have the right wormer at the right time of year to destroy the right worms!!

[Penelope]

One hting about any newcomers to the yard, is to get them to staick to your worming routine, all the horses should really be wormed at the same time and with the same program of wormers and rotation. I beleive this reduces the worm burden as newly wormed horses won't be exposed to worms from horses that were wormed three weeks before etc.

[ponyvet]

I don't mind equest, and I understand the neuro problems reported are not quite so simple as being due to the wormer. I don't know many details so can't really comment, but what I do know is it's not as simple as that! Anyway:

Double dose with Pyrantel (e.g. strongid-P, pyratape-P) in early November, to treat Tapeworms (anaplocephala perfoliata - to give them their correct name!)

Then mid December use Panacur guard (5 day course) which is fenbendazole, to treat encysted redworms (cyathostomes).

Then about 6 weeks later, or early February, double dose with Pyrantel again.

That's the important bit, and in between times use whatever you like, or can get hold of. I don't mind using avermectin wormers:

Moxidectin - Equest (every 13weeks)
Ivermectin - Eqvalan, Eraquell or Furexel (every 6-8 weeks)

Or you can use benzimidazole wormers:

Fenbendazole - Multiwurma-F granules, Panacur, Zerofen
Mebendazole - Telmin,

These are every 6-8 weeks.

To treat bots, you should use an avermectin wormer in late autumn, ideally after the first frost they say, so use that in november or december, depending on how cold it is. As you should at that time be using Pyrantel or Panacur Guard, it doesn't matter to use an avermectin at the same sort of time.

I think it's a good idea to take control of the worming program for any horses that come onto your yard, as it's your pasture they could be contaminating, and your horses health that's at risk as well as any other. They should all be wormed together and with the same product, so you know it's done properly. Maybe you could arrange it so they pay you a lottle extra each week as part of their rent and you supply the wormer at the right time. That way you know it's done, and you may be able to get good deals on the wormer you choose if you're buying a few.

[Gill]

Lots of good advice for you here. Nobody has mentioned getting your worm counts done though, which many people think an essential part of modern worming.
New horses -I have the odd livery at my farm. Mostly when they arrive I will be told about how well wormed they are. Mostly when I check the worm count (before they are allowed onto the pasture), I find a high worm count. So I would say it is essential to worm before letting them graze on your land. The count will show if there is any real problem which needs attention.
Two interesting sites for you www.westgatelabs.com
www.diagnosteq.com (Liverpool University vets info)
Also, have you heard about the new all in one wormer which doses for tapeworm as well as strongyles? It will be interesting to see how that performs as it does away with the need for double dosing (different chemical to the usual pyrantel).
If you have worm counts done with us we will supply a worming programme if you ask.
Good luck with your new venture.

[ros]

Ponyvet:

Equest is advertised as effective against encysted small redworm (both developing and inhibited stages) yet you still recommend dosing with Panacur Guard. Why is that?

[ponyvet]

You could use either if you want, but as people seem to dislike Equest, I'd rather suggest they used Panacur Guard and make their own minds up about using Equest or not.

I think they are both about the same in terms of efficacy against encysted larvae (they bothe quote around 80% I think) so I don't really care either way. If someone is using equest throughout the year they can also use it instead of panacur guard in the winter too, but If a person is not using equest they should make sure they do use Panacur Guard.

[Maria]

I thought that you were also supposed to change your standard/regular wormer every 12 months. Or is that not the case now? The livery yard have used Equest for two years now, should I be worried?

Maria

[Tina J]

As I understand it, there are very few documented cases of resistance to wormers (that is parasites that have evolved to be unafected by a particular wormer). But the fact that resistance has occured, however rarely, means that it is a good idea to rotate wormers every year or two.

You can lessen the chances of worming resistance by using a weigh tape and making sure that you are giving your horse sufficient wormer according to the manufacturers instructions. Weigh tapes are only accurate to within about 10%, so add 10% to the weight you get, then worm your horse for that amount. Livery yards worming with paste wormers often use only part of a tube of paste for each horse (lessens the cost) so if your horse is wormed by someone else, check with them how they are calculating the amount they dose.

But yes, after two years of the same wormer, I would want to see a change for a year.

[ponyvet]

There's no evidence of resistance to avermectin based wormers (yet) but there is widespread resistance amongst small redworms to some of the benzimidazole wormers, so it is a good idea to use different ones.

[Gill]

We have tested a lot of horses with benzimidazole worm resistance (this is the Panacur type drug). We have even tested some who were resistant to the 5 day course, but this is unusual.
Old style worming programmes changed the main drug every year, and you still see these promoted in some places. The problem came on the benzimidazole year as some folk were worming with this as their main wormer and then discovering their horse had developed a heavy burden of resistant worms. Unless you do your worm counts you would not always know this.
People who worm with Equest should not need to do a 5day guard as the encysted worms have already been zapped.

[ros]

We've used Equest for just over two years now, and I think I'd be happy to carry on using it as long as it's effective and the worm counts are OK; however, if the time came to change, what would we go back to? I gather moxidectin, although a different drug, is chemically related to ivermectin, so does that mean we would have to switch to Pyrantel, the only alternative being the white wormers.

Also, is it still likely that we'd encounter resistance problems in future with the Panacur group, given that we haven't used them for a long period, or does the resistance problem disappear after a spell on a different drug?

[LesleyR]

What's the deal with Equest then? Why are people ("vets") saying they don't like it? I've used it for the past 12 months without problems -it's easy to administer and you don't need to use it as often - so what's the beef??

[ponyvet]

To be honest I don't know. It's been reported in horsey magazines that there've been some terrible reactions to it in the US, but as far as I know, it's not been confirmed at all.

It's been used in farm animals and small animals for years. In fact it's the mainstay of heartworm treatment in dogs in the USA.

I suppose the only thing I can say for why some vets don't like it is that injectable avermectins are not very safe in horses, so perhaps older vets don't like the idea of giving a horse moxidectin by mouth. However it's a newer type of avermectin, and I do know of vets who use injectable moxidectin for riding school clients and have been for years, with no adverse effects.

Personally I think it's fine, and use it myself.

[Speedy]

My livery yard is good in every other way, except with worming. They used to keep cattle (before fmd) and used to worm twice a year! There are now no cattle and I'm still struggling to get them to worm. They won't poo-pick either. I worm mine same as I always did - I know this is kinda pointless as they aren't doing theirs, but I think that doing this is better than doing nothing. I want to do a worm count on my mare, but what can I do if it proves to be very high? I've already discussed worming with the livery owners and they are anti-worming, so by throwing bad results at them, I'm going to alienate myself and upset them - and there isn't anywhere else to take my horse! Any advice on how to persuade them to worm without upsetting the barrel-cart?

[SJ]

Wow! What a response, thank you for all your replies. There's quite a lot for me to get my head round and quickly as two people came to see the yard at the weekend. My ponies have obviously not been wormed properly either despite their condition.

I think a worm count for both of them is in order as a starting point.

Sara Jane

[Gill]

Hi Speedy, why don't you do the worm count before you panic? You might find that its OK after all and if not, well surely the yard owner has enough intelligence to realise that something needs to be done? Are any of the horses their own I wonder? A very wormy horse is in danger of death so ignorance is definitely not bliss in this case!

[SJ]

Gill, just to let you know I've just left a message on the Westgate Lab answerphone. Thanks for your advice.

Sara Jane

[Speedy]

Gill - thanks - I will email westgatelabs and get a kit sent out. About 3 of the horses belong to the livery owner, but she's an old-school farmer type and just doesn't seem to get the point of worming!!