Rareys method???

[Sexy Sietske]

Rareys method as seen in the film 'The Horse Whisper' where a forleg is tied up. has anybody tried or seen this method in action (part from on tv!!) and what are you opinions. I have a very bold ignorant and now visious mare and I don't know why :confused: when we had her she was realy sweet and loving and now she is just bolshy head strong and nasty (nearly bit my ear off!! got away with swelling and a big ouch) She seems to think she is invincable and this method is meant to put a horse 'in its place' quickly and kindly. Any opinions will be apreiciated :)

Here is the link to which is full book is online and explains how things are done : http://www.rarey.com/sites/jsrarey/jsrbook.html

[shelby]

Dr Bob Miller also uses this method as shown in one of this videos. I think it needs to be done very carefully by someone who knows what they are doing and WHY they are doing it. The potential for a wreck is huge.

[Yann]

Not something I would ever consider, strikes me as barbaric and inhumane. No disrespect but if your horse used to be sweet and loving and now tramples you then you need to look at what you are doing yourself and if anything else may have changed physically or in her environment. Get help from a professional trainer if you need it and have a look at some NH training programmes.

[Kate F.]

The Horse Whisperer is a romantic drama, not a film about horse training. The laying down scene was hugely dramatised for the cameras to make it look spectacular. (There's a good description of how this was done in Buck Brannaman's "The Faraway Horses".) Buck was the technical director of the film - and when he showed Robert Redford how he lays a horse down, Redford said is was all too calm and relaxed to create the effect the film required and plenty of special effects were therefore added. So please don't take what you see on the screen as an example of horse-friendly laying down!!

Holding the front foot up is a part of it in most approaches - when a horse lies down itself, it fold up at the front first, and raising the foot stimulates this idea. However, there is A LOT of preparation that goes in first, and it's not something that should be done to "put a horse in its place" but rather the end product when the horse is ready to demonstrate that it has put its trust in you completely. Throwing a horse down to force it into submission can be done, but it is cruel and violent, and I am sure would not be condoned by anyone here. (To throw a horse, they usually use a HIND foot, as the horse then loses its balance. With the front foot, it just creates and idea - and if they don't get the idea at once, it's amazing how long they can just hop around with a front foot raised and be totally unbothered by it - providing, of course, they've been properly prepared!)

I have used, and do use, the front foot method - but the preparation is extensive, and takes a lot of reading of the horse.

I agree with Yann that a good NH programme is the way to start. Your mare is simply showing that she feels she needs to take over the leadership. If she was sweet before, for some reason she's lost confidence in your leadership that needs to be repaired before you do anything else.

I should also warn you there are no quick fixes - kind or otherwise. Changing the horse's attitude to you will mean you learning to change your attitude and presentation to the horse - and that takes time. If you work with a good trainer, you will see some changes very quickly, but consolidating that will take time. However, it's a fascinating and very rewarding time - so enjoy it!

[india]

Not something I would ever consider, strikes me as barbaric and inhumane. No disrespect but if your horse used to be sweet and loving and now tramples you then you need to look at what you are doing yourself
Echo Yann......

The first thing I'd suggest you do is try to analyse why your horse is behaving the way she is.

Next time you have a problem with her, instead of blaming or hitting her - take a step back and ask yourself 'what did I do to make her do that'. Nine times out of ten you'll find the answer staring you in the face. :)

Good luck.

[horseaholic]

Could she possibly be in season? I know many mares have mood changes when in season, and a supplement could probably help if that is the case.

Also, check she is not in pain anywhere. Have you had her back, teeth etc checked?

[jenren!!]

Aramis used to be pretty horrible, used to rear up whilst being led, bite, pull faces, refused to be brushed. But now she is an absoloute gem due to time for her to get used to me and time spent together, as well as lots of groundwork and body language. Perhaps you need to look at yourself and see what messages you're giving out to your horse. Some people use such dominating body language the horse gets frightened and acts out of fear. The owner then thinks they are being soft and is even more 'squared up' with body language.

Think what you might be doing. It could be such a simple thing.

[Greentchr]

If i remember correctly from one of your other posts, isn't she just a 15 month old? And have you only had her for a month? I seem to remember that the problems began about the same time as antibiotics? I may have signals crossed here...

But if that is so, it is a bit premature in her training to think of something so drastic as throwing.

I echo previous posts in advising learning to work with Natural Horsemanship principals of ground work. Use any of the clinicians methods- they all work.

On the Rarey method- according to Robert Miller/Rick Lamb in the book The Revolution in Horsemanship , I quote: " John Rarey's methods, effective though they were for him, are far too difficult and dangerous for most modern horsemen to use. Rarey was a superb athelete, fearless, persistant, and patient. He also had the benefit of experience, having applied his methods to hundreds of difficult horses over the years....Throwing a horse was generally reserved for the toughest equine customers and could therefore be considered the most drastic of the immobilization techniques."

He also points out that the horses he worked with reverted back if the handler was not trained appropriately, and says " training the horse does little good if you don't devote equal attention to training the handler and generalizing learned behavior".

[Crystal Fire]

I would like to know a lot more about your mare before suggesting anything other than getting an experienced and kind handler to come and give you some input. To go from sweet and loving to "bold ignorant and now visious" there has to be a reason. The reasons are normally man-made, so either handling, environment or maybe even physical as Greentchr seems to suspect.
I don't think you should consider Rarey's method at all.

[Sexy Sietske]

HI everyone, thanks for the replies it has realy put rareys method in clear vision.

Her behaviour first started in the middle of last week when my mum was just stroking her like she usually does and she kicked out and after that she is just been realy grumpy and pushy. She was only in season the week before last so I don't think she is in season but yesterday i took her out the field and tied her up to the fence in the same place as I always do and she was a complete angel!!! When I asked her to move back and move over she went without having to use any pressure at all. When I was grooming her she stood with her head low falling asleep and enjoying it, even letting me pick her front feet out for the first time without moving an inch. Where as before she would be tied up with her head high pacing and pawing the floor and threatening to bite and kick me but nothing has changed at all :confused: :confused: Maybe she has serious mood swing issue like with most teenagers:D But I am realy pleased with her behaviour and shocked how she just changes.
I have also found all my parelli stuff out and I think I am goin to introduce her to that, we may even have to the farrier next month to straighten her feet out if there is no more mood swings that will set us back.

[Crystal Fire]

Introducing Calcium Magnesium into feed can have a really great effect on horses that get a bit moody, or spooky. I don't know quantities because I haven't used it yet myself, I am lucky, my two ponies I have at the moment are like little cuddly bears. I'm sure if you post a question on the General forum someone will be able to give you more info.

[Sexy Sietske]

Ahhh you see thats another problem we have. She is being attacted by flies and they are driving her mad so we gave her some molichop speedybeet and garlica nd she turned her nose up at it, so we tried it without garlic and she turned her nose up at that so we tried speedybeet and molichop on there own and she turned her nose up 2 both of them. We can actuall get her to take a nouthful of grated carrot and a small bit of molichop with polos in but she wont always have some, she will just fish the polosout and eat those.But when she is eating feed and if she is still having mood swings I will try that :p

[Sooty]

Can I suggest you don't feed her polos OR carrots? The reason being they are both full of sugar and could possibly be contributing to her mood swings. Is she out at grass? If so she may well not need any extra feed at all. Speedibeet is a great idea and no doubt she will start to eat it once there's not so much grass available. If you do want to try to introduce supplements (and magnesium can be a very effective calmer - either as CalMag or magnesium oxide) you know that she likes mint, so perhaps try mixing a small amount of feed with some fresh/dried mint? You can buy it in feed shops or grow it in your garden :)

Good luck with your young mare. I'm sure she'll be fine, but I agree with the other posters above that you would both benefit from having a trainer out to work with you.

[Crystal Fire]

If she's being bothered by flies then get some good fly repellent, everyone has a favourite but I find Coopers quite efficient. And a fly mask or fringe. Garlic isn't the best thing for them anyway.
Agree 120% stop feeding her sugars, and if you ever feed her treats by hand then stop them too :)
I have this feeling that I want to visit your horse to know more about her age, how long you have had her, how she was kept before you had her and what the setup is now. Is she stabled at all and for how long. What's her turnout like? Does she go out alone or with others? What your training routine is.
I say this because I feel there may be something that is being overlooked here. A horse that doesn't enjoy a bit of a feed? Doesn't matter how much grass there is, mine always enjoy a small feed :rolleyes:. If she's a youngster then normally just grass won't be enough to grow her healthy limbs, so you need to have a think about this. Sometimes a horse suddenly going extremely calm and biddable isn't the best of signs. Have you brought on a youngster before? When I had my first young horse I had a good trainer come in every now and then just to get an outside view of how it was going. Maybe that would help you.

[FRED]

Re farriers/feet problems,its worth searching/asking around for sure, Dakota was lacking in confidence so maybe not the same issue.It may even be a total lack of good ground work in earlier years for causing difficulty with working with her feet,its quiet a revelation when you find out how many basics get missed out in early years of training.D hated lifting a foot,it was all about trust and going about things,quiet/calm/reward ,ground work, {reward, that's normally a rub in a favourite itchy place.}I don't have to tie him or hold him to check a foot,anytime anyplace within reason and can stretch his leg too,anyone without fuss.
Nothing remarkable some will say,but they didn't know him.



I hope I don't get in the dog house for this,if it works,a video clip from Monty Roberts web site about ropes and horses and some peoples idea about working with horses,its vile! be warned.Monty talks a lot in the clip,but you can turn the sound down if you wish I guess.
http://interface.audiovideoweb.com/lnk/ca25win25018/MontyRoberts/JoinUpvsTradition300K.wmv/play.asx

lots of good stuff to consider in the above posts.:)The video clip makes me despair! but does go on to people mending their ways,Im hoping anway.

[india]

I hope I don't get in the dog house for this,if it works,a video clip from Monty Roberts web site about ropes and horses and some peoples idea about working with horses,its vile! be warned.Monty talks a lot in the clip,but you can turn the sound down if you wish I guess.
http://interface.audiovideoweb.com/lnk/ca25win25018/MontyRoberts/JoinUpvsTradition300K.wmv/play.asx

OMG:eek: those poor horses, how anyone could even suggest that method of training is acceptable in this day and age is beyond belief!!! At least the young man in the video has now seen the error of his ways.

I believe a similar device to a running w is still used on some harness horses/mules to train them to stop bombing off. (I think it's called a w harness). :(

Thank you FRED for posting the link.

[Kate F.]

I hope I don't get in the dog house for this,if it works,a video clip from Monty Roberts web site about ropes and horses and some peoples idea about working with horses,its vile! be warned.Monty talks a lot in the clip,but you can turn the sound down if you wish I guess.
http://interface.audiovideoweb.com/lnk/ca25win25018/MontyRoberts/JoinUpvsTradition300K.wmv/play.asx
lots of good stuff to consider in the above posts.:)The video clip makes me despair! but does go on to people mending their ways,Im hoping anway.

Oh Fred! OK the horse bit is ghastly - but Monty gave me the best laugh I've had for ages!!! Who's coaching him?? ... a mix of Michael Jackson and Billy Graham???:p :p (Perhaps THAT's what Michael Jackson is up to these days!!.. go Monty, "Heal the world"!!)

However, having gagged on the syrup and tripe (horses have not been trained that way for thousands of years - horses were extinct on the American continent until a few hundred years ago when they were re-introduced by the Spanish - whose methods were the root and basis of today's NH!! There have been good and bad training techniques since Xenophon and undoubtedly before.) I must say all this non-violent, anti-pain stuff is a bit rich from the man who advocates the "buck-stopper"!! Monty's Buck-stopper is basically the same gadget as the people he is deploring here use (only they usually call it a gum-line) to stop the horse putting its head down to buck. It runs above the teeth and cuts / bruises the gums if the horse puts its head down. Very gentle and natural.... not. :mad:

I can't help feeling that the 5 odd minutes he spends telling us how saintly he is would be better spent telling us how he trains a horse to stop, for example, and explain how it works and why it's better. Sorry - pragmatic is my middle name - can't help it! :D :D

(Bet I end up in the dog house now!! :D )

[Crystal Fire]

You made me laugh Kate - tea all over the screen! :eek:
When Monty introduced the young man I was expecting to then see some video of him working with a horse using his new-found Monty training. It was a bit of a disappointment to just have Monty rattling on, but there you go.
This illustrates clearly how I feel about Monty, he does spread a good message for the horse that can only benefit them, but the man himself drives me mad. I also think that Monty himself is pretty hard on horses when I've seen him at demos, he shanks them with the Dually and can get quite impatient. BUT many of his followers and trainees are much more gentle than him, and so... it's doing a lot of good for horses.
I will be straight and say that I don't believe what Monty says about how his Dad abused horses and treated them like this video. There are many more people who were there when his Dad trained horses who say this isn't true. Again, this dramatic narrative in Monty's books strengthens his message and helps to bring about change for horses...
To quote from the book written by Monty's family - who of course also watched Marvin train horses -
"Readers of Monty’s book were appalled to see a photo of Marvin with a horse bound in ropes and lying on its side. They were convinced that Marvin tied his horses up to gain supremacy.
The photograph was actually taken to explain the method and show the procedure of laying a horse down if you intended to neuter a stallion or to doctor a wound. In the 1950s, most experienced horse handlers possessed a lot of veterinary knowledge. Marvin was no exception. A veterinarian might not be immediately available and knowing how to lay a horse down to administer emergency medical treatment might mean the difference between life and death for an horse with a severe injury."
None of this weakens the message in this video clip, but I sometimes wish Monty would just comment on what is before him, instead of constantly harking back to how nasty his dad was to horses and what a terrible childhood he had. It really isn't necessary in order to make his point.

[india]

Great posts Kate F and Crystal Fire, I only managed to listen to MR waffle on for about 20 seconds before I reached for the mute button!!!

I agree with you Kate F, the buckstopper is an appaling gadget and shouldn't belong in any trainers toolbox. This is just one of his devices/training methods that I disagree with and why I no longer put 'natural' before 'horse trainer' when refering to Monty Roberts. :(

[FRED]

:D Hi Kate ,really no need for a lecture;) but I can post you the full web site if you like.{some one posted me your web site{again} last week and said Fred you will like this, when we talked on the telephone I told them lots about your work,funny old world,I even mentioned your love of erm{cough not}you know who}
Its really interesting how people perceive people they don't know in real life,ie me,to be honest I nearly fell asleep reading your lecture, honest lots of us are a lot wiser than you give credit,please respect that;) I still love you anyway:p x .

Well any way, I should have had bets who would have the sound turned up:eek:,as I said Monty talks lots,I knew you would be the 1st to reply, Kate:D but my point is exactly that,working horses with ropes.
I have to admit its tacking a big liberty when Monty says,this is traditional horse training.But he has changed a lot too.

ps,I have recently read Marvins book.....the gallows loom for me now:eek:

To the original thread poster,sorry this has all gone a bit hay wall:)

[Crystal Fire]

Did you read Marvin's book or Whispers and Lies Fred? Either way you will probably be wearing concrete wellies at the bottom of the ocean before long :D
I think SS may have decided against Rarey's Method judging by earlier discussion.
I tried turning the sound off on the clip btw, but it didn't go completely off...

[FRED]

hi Crystal Fire, I read Marvins book.Im aware of the other and think it only fair to read it soon.You can download Marvins book from MR's own web site.
Oddly I find the need to read the book again,its different and really is of a dare I say a 'cow boy' era when horses were in so much demand,working horses that is in the USA.Some of it isn't nice at all,but some is interesting like the old remides although please folks don't go trying them!

You would be very supprised at how much support I have had about something else;) but Im not after concrete boots or to cause problems,I think a injustice was being done to a lot of dedicated people and had my say. Im sure Kate wouldn't want me dropped to the bottom of the ocean...gulp!.
I hope to see two NH demos soon,im hopless with names,one is Tom Witcombe SP? and the other Mark Rashid.

Mention ropes around Jo who works with me and D and belive me she can get worked up about there missuse.
The horses in that clip India ,just what can we say about their treatment,I felt for them.The volume switch worked ok for me ok ;)
I need a new identity I think...

[Kate F.]

:D
Its really interesting how people perceive people they don't know in real life,ie me,to be honest I nearly fell asleep reading your lecture, honest lots of us are a lot wiser than you give credit,please respect that;) I still love you anyway:p x .



Oops - sorry - didn't mean to lecture... or bore you! :o I just had a gut reaction to that awful evangelical tone Monty seems to have adopted - no reflection on the poster ie you - who I actually hold in the hightest esteem and respect!

No - certainly don't want to see you at the bottom of the ocean!:eek: - though with the number of us that might end up there - it could be quite a party! :D

[Crystal Fire]

:D Just as long as I get to see Ray Hunt this weekend before I'm sent to be food for the fishes!
I'd like to see Marvin's book one day Fred, obviously things have moved on but it's good to look at some of the history. I've already downloaded the other one, and it has a simple honesty to it I think, with much evidence quoted.
Tom Widdicombe, yes, he's someone I want to go and see as well, he's a very nice man, I've spoken to him on the phone quite a lot. He's offered to help me with finding a publisher for a book when I'm ready. I've seen Mark Rashid a few times as well, and always take away some really interesting stuff. Problem is, everything seems to be happening at once. I'm organising two clinics for Steve Halfpenny in September (Hereford and Surrey) and probably can't sneak enough time off work to do everything I want!
Ropes have a bad press don't they? My ropes are an everyday part of my life, but I don't tie any legs up or throw horses down with them.

[Sexy Sietske]

Hey thats fine with me only the link doesn't work :( well i can't get it to work anyway :confused: hate computers sometimes:o

[FRED]

:)
You need Windows Media Player for the link to work, the volume switch is on the bottom left/hand side.

I posted the link because it shows the total misuses of rope in horse training{understatement for sure! even using the wording training is misleading}.

There was a real chance we might have difficulty with D learning to lift and hold his feet for us safely because of his nature,I had talked about a method where you can use a rope to encourage and teach a horse to lift a foot using rope, this method offers a good deal of safety to the handler with a difficult horse.
The thing is, it does not involve force!,heavy handiness or stressing a horses out,your not tying them up as in the vile handling in the vile video clip.

Crystal Fire:
I suspect people can be anti rope{know people can be because they think of cow boys as in the video clip}other than for lunge,leading and long rein work, when indeed it can be used 'nicely' to work with difficult horse for your safety as in the training of lifting a foot, no force or tying,its offering the handler added safety.
There is also the fact that there is rope and there is good rope for working with horses too.
I'm going on a bit,sorry,but what Im trying to say is that if you have a horse that is difficult with feet,you can use rope as a safety measure without all of the horrors of tying a horse up.
For us basic ground work proved to be the right approach and its not proven to be an issue learning D to lift his feet and stand still.
I have noticed over the past few years that if a horse is very un cooperative/becomes difficult lifting a particular foot,its often a hip issue that's not obvious/stands out to us and is worth having checked.

Anyway,the ocean party sounds my kind of place too!

Kate,I will probably arrive there very early, if some folk had there way.:D

[Sexy Sietske]

still can't get the link to work :( it opens windows media player but then it says it has an error...stupid machine grrrr is there a website that i can click to get on it may work then :rolleyes:

[india]

still can't get the link to work :( it opens windows media player but then it says it has an error...stupid machine grrrr is there a website that i can click to get on it may work then :rolleyes:
Perhaps you need to download the latest version before you can view it? Have a look on the website, there may be a free download on it. :)

Edited to add: Is this any help?
http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowsmedia/download/AllDownloads.aspx?displang=en&qstechnology=