Biting when tacking up

[qwerty]

What do you do when you try and tack up a horse who tries to bite you.
Bounty tried to bite be 3 times last Wednesday which is an improvement! Normally my mum comes in with me to hold her head so I can sort out her tack but it was just me last week and I had to rug her too. The moment I went into the stable I saw her ears were pinned back so I gave her a polo. That cheered her up but then she saw the birdle and took a swipe at me. I had my dressage whip with me so I flicked the end on her rug to make a noise. She was then OK for about a minute when she started again! I managed to tack her up in the end but then I took her through to the school and went to tighten the girth and she walked into me and tried to take another swipe! I made her walk back to where she was stood.
Nina said I had done well with her but I don't think I could have done after all of that!
She says to flick her on the end of her nose but I don't know how hard to do it and she would probably bite my finger when I went to to it!

PLEASE HELP! Any advice welcome!

[Outrider]

This is actually a fairly common occurence. My horse does it now and then. I don't advocate hitting a horse anywhere on the head for any reason, even flicking the nose. You're right. Start that and you could end up losing a finger or two!

It appears as if she dislikes an invasion of her space in the stall where you tack her up. The first thing I would do, is halter and lead her outside to a stout fence and tie her there, fairly short. Then bring out the tack and get it sorted out. Put the saddle on first. As you cinch up, pull the cinch OUT and then up. Most just pull up and this sometimes pinches the belly and causes the horse to nip.Once the saddle is cinched, undo the halter and reattach it around her neck and then put the bridle on. If she still tries to bite, I would carry a small crop and pop her on the chest with a loud NO. Hope this helps. Happy trails!

[ilovebacara]

before u hit the horse in any way check that there is no problem with the fitting of the tak! no lumps in your saddle or no sharp edges on the bit. Check for anything at all that may cause the horse any pain or discomfort. it may be that the saddle needs re flocking.
if there is no probs with that then try and growl at the horse as it usually takes more notice of that rather that a smak on the nose!
that works for me!!

[qwerty]

I'm not sure if I would be allowed at the stables but I will ask!
What does cinch meen?

Nothing seems to be wrong with the tack...checked that!

When my mum had a horse she bit her once (and never again) because my mum bit her back!!! I wouldn't do that on a school horse though!

[floppy]

horses that are aggressive when you groom them or tack them up are a struggle.

I use to ride a stallion that had the most awful stable manners, instead of tieing him up, you just had to drop the lead rope through the ring in the wall and hold onto the end the whole time you tacked up and groomed. If he went to bite you pulled the rope so he couldnt swing around and eat you and once he was relaxed you relax the line again.

I also know a lady who has a terribly aggressive horse and he will bite anyone and everything if you are too close when he is being tacked up.

ther eis also a mare at another riding school that pins her ears back when you do anything with her putting rugs on and off etc.

there must be a way to cure them but i think one just has to learn how to deal with them kindly.

[Outrider]

The foot action you describe is not an attempt to kick you at all. Just telling you that she really doesn't want you to pick up the feet when she lightly swings them out a few inches as you pick them up. You are doing the right thing in reprimanding her when she does that. She is then telling you, "Ok, if you insist." Just wanted you to know that she is not trying to kick at all. Happy Trails and congratulations on doing so well with your first horse!

[Sapphire]

Hi,

First of all don't smack her anywhere near her face, you will make her head shy and she'll lose any trust she has of you. I'm sure you wouldn't punch someone in the face, so why do it with the horse? Also this can make the biting worse, if you have a fear, or the situation is uncomfortable and someone smacks you, you'll look at the events even more fearfully won't you?
I suggest you make sure all of her tack fits perfectly, and she has no back pain, sores, muscle spasm, sore mouth etc. Check her girth area too, if in doubt get your vet to check.
If she has the all clear, she might have had a bad scare some time back, make sure it's not fear. Are your riding lessons positive, and do you ride well? If no to any of these, she could be getting nervous because she knows she's going to be ridden. Pulling faces can be a sign of pain. Does she hold her mouth closed when you try to bridle her, does she throw her head up? Move to the back of the stable?
A method I used on my 4 year old, I put her normal stable halter on then I would hold it with one hand, while using the other hand to groom etc. If she goes to bite, push her head sharply away, I then reward with by bringing her head back and stroking her and speak nice and softly, it really works.
Hope this helps. Luv to all.

[qwerty]

She is a school horse and does it to everyone. She is fine when riding and leading her and had no problem with you taking it off!
She does turn around so her bum is in my face sometimes.
Am I doing the right thing in giving her polos to get her to turn around of it that rewarding her ror being naughty. I just can't get her any other way.

Outrider - is it me missing something orhave you posted on the wrong thread? Can't see anything on "kicking" and no-one has mensioned a 1st horse!

[Fifteenbobber]

I was going to ask what you meant by "swing" - swing her head - swing her bottom?
Personally I do not believe in feeding tip bits at all. When you walk into the stable does she always get a polo?
If so this could be part of the problem, they come to expect it - then DEMAND IT! As Outrider says put on a head collar, even if you are not allowed to tack up on the yard you could tie and tack her in the stable.
Sometimes with school horse if they get novices tacking them up frequently - this can either make them waspy or threatening because the novice either backs off and gets worried they are doing it wrong.
Horses like routine so always do everything in the same order - i.e
1. Open door with head collar in hand
2. walk in close door - put on head collar - tie up
3. brush
4. put on bridle - do up 'straps' - start with throat lash and work down - put on head collar and tie up
5. put on saddle and do girth
Do the girth up one hole at a time - start with the girth one hole tighter than touching - do something else for a few seconds - come back do the girth another hole and then put your fingers either side of the girth and ease away from the skin, run you fingers down the inside of the girth until you can go no further without pinching - then do up one more hole. Make sure you check the girth again before you get on:eek:

Then your horse will know exactly what you are doing and what is coming next:) :)

[Fifteenbobber]

Ran out of room - there's the last bit.

It may take a while but you should find he will improve as she becomes acustomed to the rotine.
If you are still having problems ask someone of the yard that is experienced to tack her for you to what happens.

Flicking him on the nose will only make the situation worse as he will become defensive and thus more agressive:eek:

If you can find the underlying cause correct it.

This rotine has work for me for years and years of tacking up school horse and cured some that have come in with this type of problem - time and patience work wonders.

Always be positive and confident with what you do and your horse should respond:D
Hope this helps and sorry it is so long:)

[White-Blazes]

Hi Qwerty

I had this problem with Bryony the irish cob this summer. Whenever I tightened her girth, she would always look back round at me as if in some discomfort. Had her saddle checked but that was fine. I posted a similar thread on the IH forums after she actually bit my 10 year old daughter whilst I was doing the girth.
Basically, as she is quite podgy, they thought I was pinching her underneath,
the options were helpful; tighten up one side at a time, but a bit time consuming, or buy a humane girth.
I bought a humane girth for 14.50, and this has solved my problems. Obviously if it is a school horse, it isn't up to you to buy her a new girth, but you could suggest it to the owners.
Heather:D

[lleeaannee]

I would reiterate all the advice given.

NEVER hit a horse around the head - especially with a whip (i don't know if this is whae you meant when you said "flick"). It the recipe for a headshy horse.

I would suggest tying the horse up while tacking up. A horse i ride (ginny) has terrible stable manners so i tie a piece of baling twine to her net ring and then tie her to the twine (never tie the horse to the actual ring!!! Safety first)

I would knock the treat giving on the head too. Only give a treat ofr good behaviour not bad. You are in effect conditioning her to act this way. I would suggest having a word with the riding school about the treats. They could put a sign on the stable door or something to prevent it (my stables did). After all, they are liable if anything goes wrong (I assume they know how this horse behaves - if so why are they letting inexperience people, who don't know how to deal with the behaviour, tack it up?)

One thing I do with Ginny if she turns her back end on me it to approach her back end. One you have your hand on her rump you can then "feel" your way to her head. I WOULD NOT reccommend this with riding school horses though. I only do this as I have learned with experience that she will not kick me; it is just evasion. As you get to know a horse you will know if this would be possile.

Another thing I do when doing the girth up is stick the elbow nearest the horse towards the face. Now to elbow her with but to give her something to bite that doesn't hurt me so much. It hurts less to be bit on the elbow (try piching the skin there). There is also less skin to get purchase on. If I catch her about to bite me I move my elbow towards her (I must stress I do not elbow her - just use the fast movement to change her ideas).

I really would suggest you have a word with the school about stopping the treats as this DOES work and their priority should be the safety of their students!

[White-Blazes]

Qwerty

Just been looking at my thread that was on another site and am trying to copy the replies here, so here goes;

Hello everyone
When we bought my daughters irish cob mare this July, she'd just come over from Ireland.
She is very heavy, and a bit on the chubby side. She has bred a foal in the past too (she's 8).
After a few weeks of hacking, I was surprised in that she hadn't lost any weight, and noticed how she always turned to look at me when tightening the girth. I was beginning to have my doubts as to whether she was pregnant.
A month ago, the vet was called as she was lying down in the field. Now me, having never seen a horse with colic, thought 'oh my God, she's in labour'.
Vet came, it was colic, and she's not in foal.
This Saturday, when tightening the girth, my daughter was holding her head when she bit her arm.
Why does she do this? She needs the girth where I put it, else it slips as she is so round!
In every other way, she is a little angel and not at all nasty.
What can I do? I can't bite her back else I'd get a mouthful of hair - lol !! Once she's out hacking, she's fine.
please help.
Heather E

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Date: 31-Oct-01

This could be down to having been pinched by the girth but is more likely to be due to the saddle. When you tighten the girth the saddle can press down if it is too narrow and cause bruising that gets worse with time so maybe a check from a good saddle fitter would be a good first step, coupled with a back check in case there is some damage that needs dealing with. Sometime horses that have bruised need time off to heal before riding again as they can still bite for a while as it still hurts until the bruising goes. Hope this helps.
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Date: 01-Nov-01

You don't say how you tighten the girth. Is it an all in one tightening, or in stages? I do mine up in three stages. Have the attached (left) side 3 holes lower than the final fit. Tighten the other side to one hole less than the final fit. Tighten the left side to one hole less than final. I then tighten the right hand side to its final hole before moving onto the bridle, either doing the last left hand hole immediately before mounting or when I'm on, having mounted from a wall. Er, that's probably a few more than 3 stages actually, but hey, you get the idea! I do it as my pony used to detest the girth being done up. He takes it all in his stride now!
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Date: 01-Nov-01

I used to over tighten my girth in an attempt to stop Tillys saddle slipping and she started to become saddle shy. Once I worked out what the problem was I swapped to using a hunting breastplate and crupper to keep the saddle from slipping and I always get on from a mounting block. This solved the saddle slipping problem and TIlly is now a much happier bunny.
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Date: 01-Nov-01

It could also be due dirty girth, sore ribs, ticklishness, horse is telling you that it has a problem by nipping maybe, try girthing up slowly and make sure no pinching occurs, do you lift each foreleg after girthing to make sure skin is smooth. Imagine youself wearing a tight ill fitting bra, its the horse equivalent.
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Date: 01-Nov-01

Defintely all the above. I spend five minutes doing my girth up - hole by hole I guage how well I'm doing it by my horses' expression. I aim to get not even a ear twitch out of him as it gets pulled up so gently.
One thing I really would recommend is getting a thick wool girth sleeve as girths can quite easily pull the hairs as she moves and a sleeve eliminates that problem. (Thoroughly brush it each time you tack up).
Also, what sort of numnah do you use? When you get the saddle checked make sure that they take into account the thickness of the numnah otherwise that would be making a too tight saddle even tighter. I swear by a semi padded cloth with the prolite gel inserts where the pressure points are !
Hope this helps.
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Date: 01-Nov-01

I would agree with all the above, but you may after all the checks and always doing the girth up a whole at a time etc, find she is just "being a mare"! Mine has had all the checks etc and still always makes faces or knashes her teeth at me when I girth up (not when I put the saddle on).
Strange things is, I was tacking her up at my instructors yard the other week and hey presto, no faces! Too much else going on.
Girths go where mares in particular are very sensitive, so some hate it no matter what. My mare is absolutely fine once I am on board and works fine, so it is not her back or saddle, just a bit of a girth phobia.
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Date: 01-Nov-01

Just to say that I agree with all of the excellent advice.
I also have an irish cob (aren't they great!) and she is overweight 90% of the year despite my efforts to get her to lose weight. My advice would be to cut her hard feed down to the very bare minimum and give her lots of hay over winter. Polly only has a handful of nuts or chaff plus Firm Foot and garlic powder. At the end of last winter she was looking slim (hardly recognised her!) and beautiful.
I have 3 girths of various length to cope with her weight fluctuations! My favourite is a very soft leather girth that my dad bought her for christmas last year from Olympia.
Hope you can work through this problem. Let us know how you get on.
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Date: 01-Nov-01

Hi my young mare always tried to nip her previous owner when the girth was tightened. I swapped onto a girth with elasticated ends when she arrived with me and have never had the problem since. It might be worth a try if the saddle and her back prove to be ok.
Hope you solve the problem,
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Heather E
Date: 01-Nov-01

WOW!! So many helpful replies, thank you so much. I knew I'd get some help since joining this site a month ago.
Firstly, when she first arrived, there was no problem during the first month, then they gradually got worse.
I have to tack up two horses or three at most, and usually do Bryony first. Her girth finally goes to the 4th hole, but initially I put it on 1. I tack up the other one or two, then go back and put it up to 3. Then I give my daughter a leg up, and when she is finally onboard, it goes up to 4, so yes, I do it gradually.
She hasn't put any weight on since arriving, though her coat is obviously hairier now, so maybe thicker!
Her saddle I will get checked this weekend, and I think I will invest in an elasticated girth, as someone suggested. Her numnah is a furry one so quite thick.
She lives out all the time, and whilst she doesn't need hard food, gets a tiny bit of alpha A, sugar beet, garlic powder, and tiny bit of coarse mix. I have to feed the other two, so this way she doesn't feel left out. Plus they get hay at night.
Having spoken to a friend on the phone today, she knows of three other horses that do this, all mares. Is it a mare thing??

Heather E
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Date: 01-Nov-01

heather word of warning about elasticated girths my IDX mare pulled faces having her girth tightened had saddle fitted etc and my instructor thought elastic could be pinching her so now use humane girth by cottage craft and shes happy in that i also rug and leave out with access to stable plenty of hay minimal feed (all high fibre and a vit supplement)
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From; Heather E

thank you for that advise. I think I will have to get a longer girth and tighten each side one at a time till I get to the finished holes!!
Not sure which one though.
I suppose with her being chunky and fat, she has excess fat under her girth so maybe I am pinching her. Maybe a sheepskin sleeve over the new girth - any ideas?

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Date: 04-Nov-01

What a good thread. I have learned a lot from these comments. I have to admit to rushing the operation of tightening the girth and anoying a horse or too. I will re-examine myself from now on.
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From: Heather E
Date: 04-Nov-01

Yes thank you everyone, I too have learnt a lot from your comments.
I hadn't thought for one minute that maybe Bryony had been pinched, either by me or prior to us buying her, and maybe she is expecting it every time.
Think I'll invest in a humane girth. (Would it be possible to put a sleeve over it still? I don't see why not)
thanks again everyone.

Heather E

Hope it's not too long for you Qwerty!!!!

[qwerty]

The girth can't be too tight because I only do it up loosly in the box.
I flicked her on the rug part covering her hinds.
If I do put a head collar on first, she will probably bite me when I do that and also, how do you put a double bridle on while she is wearing a headcollar?

[qwerty]

Another thing, If I stop with the polos, how do I get her to turn around when she puts her head in the corner and faces her bum at me. I'm always thinking...is she gonna buck at me? I I try and go round to her head she moves round in a circle and again tries to bite me.

[Mazpup]

There is a horse at our stabls that bites when you tack her up or try to do up her girth. Basically I think she's sick of being a riding school pony. The last time I went in her stable to untack her I managed to get her tack of her fine, but then she kept biting me when i tried to get of the stable. To avoid this I don't deal with the horse anymore. She generally is very moody, and I don't want to risk my safety trying to tack her up!

[qwerty]

I feel happier when someone else is with me cos I can just do what I have to do. The only thing is I am doing some exams soon and don't want to look woosy.
Do you have any tips for another horse who lifts his head up really high and hard when I try to put the bridle on?

[ilovebacara]

i would stick by what every body says about not hittin a horse on the face as it makes them uncomfortable and can often lead to a horse being head shy. My horse used to try and bite me when i first had her and when i had the saddler out she seemed to think that it was because one of her previous owners had girthed her up too tightly and too quickly. Although she meant no harm she would try and turn around and bite me every time i put her saddle on. I found that just sayin NO very firmly and letting her know who was boss helped as well as doing her girth up a little at a time. I think that it is hard for anyone to say what you should be doing as nobody really knows what the horse is like. It may just be a behavior problem from being around so many different people. Horses love to have one to one attention as often as they can but usually with the same person. Think of what it may be like for the horse having maybe less confident riders tacking her up all the time. I think that it may worry the horse a little because they can sense very easily when a person is tense or worried. I think that all you can do is just TRY and stay really calm and try and teach her the gentle way that it is not nice to try and bite. When the horse does something good then praise it nicley and talk to it gently and pat it. Just maybe try and build up confidence with you and the horse. Sorry for babbling on but i am really into this 'getting to know what your horse thinks' kinda thing.
Jess :)

[Elfin]

There is a horse at the stables called Tanya. She is 26 and was very badly mistreated. But she bites when you put her saddle on, and really does try to go for you. She bit my instructor the other weekend, so she gave her a slap on her tummy, and she stopped immediatley. But if she tries to bite, I just try and ignore her, and if she does try to go for me, and move back sometimes, or I tell her sharply NO. She doesn't listen, but heyho..........

[schimmer]

What makes a "humane girth" more humane than a regular one? Anybody know?

[heland]

There used to be a horse like that on our yard for a short time.

I used to talk to her so she came to the door and then put on her head collar and lead her outside as she was very possesive about her stable.

I always tacked her up outside and if she didn't swipe with her teeth I would praise and stoke her. If she did I would push her nose away and ignore her.

Actually before she left the yard there was only me and another person who could tack her up. Everyone else would get bitten or she'd turn her bum on them.

Lots of time and patience will do the trick, however you will probably never get her to stop.

I would never give treats though. What I used to do was put a few carrots on her stable floor just before she was due to be stabled again.

Good Luck:)

[qwerty]

She gets her carrots after the lesson!

[floppy]

for a hrose that lifts its head up high make sur eyou leave the headcollar on roudn the neck whilst bridling. that way if she lifts her head up you have something to use to encourage her to bring her head back down..i had this problme once and someone showed me a neat trick in getting the horse to lower its head back down but i have compeltely forgotten because that was about 3 yrs ago

[heland]

Yeah thats right floppy:)

You put on the head collar and tie up.
Then put the reins over the head.
Then you losen the slip knot but still have the rope through the binding, take of the head collar and put it round the neck.
Then if the horse pulls you have the rope to pull on.
Then on goes the bridle:D

Have fun:)

[Bootyfulcobs]

Ok, i hope i'm not repeating what other people are saying, but here goes-

My old fave horse used to be just like the one you describe, and to begin with, it was because she knew i was new at the yard, and boy would ahe take advantage of that!! i used to hesitate, and she'd turn her back on me (there's me thinking boy is she gonna kick), so i'd hesitate some more and sort of get myelf ready for it just incase she did. So think of it from the horses point of view - your body language is saying ok, you look threatening, i'll carry on cautiously- they know you're a bit worried, so they've got you trained that as long as they look threatening, they'll have you where they want you ie not tacking them up:rolleyes: She was a sneaky one for getting her own way.

Soo, the way to start changing this with me was, that i had someone come in with me, or i'd watch them do it - and if she went to bite them, they would have her heacollar lead draping over her withers from the offside, so that when she went to bite, she couldn't reach them to bite, cos they had a hold of the rope.

Polos, apples, carrots, or anything else the horse likes or is used as a treat can ONLY be used to reward good behaviuor- so you go into the stable and as soon as she turns her head away, you offer her a polo- and this says to the horse, ok, you turned away - heres a polo for doing that - they're associating turning away with getting a polo. So quit with the treats. Rewards for good behaviour should be given straight after a desired behaviuor has been shown. the only point at which you could even consider giving her a polo is when she has stood there and not advanced towards you trying to bite, because THEN you're saying, you stood still for me and did what i wanted - here's the treat for doing it:)

When i used to go to put her SADDLE on, she would stamp up and down, swing her hindquarters sometimes, go to bite and swish her tail, and i thougfht about WHY. And it occured to me when i looked at the other girls methods for tacking up: they would swing the saddle over the horses back, and thump it on - and she expected the same from me too - so when i went to put the saddle on, i held the saddle over her back (and thats quite difficult for short old me and a 15hh+ horse with heavy saddle) anwithout it touching her, and the annoyance seased - the thud of the saddle she'd expected wasn't there and the associated feeling she got from it either. After she stood still , i would slide it gently into place, and she would allow me to gently slide the girth up, but i pulled the strap out and up, as i tightened it not straight up.

And from then on, she got better and better - and with this comes the change in you, because she is behaving and so you will become more confident around her. It does get easier, but you have to earn their respect and trust, which if you imagine they may take a while to acheive with all the different people that they come into contact with everyday of their lives.

Next time you come to tack her up, breeze in like you've been doing this for years - beam confidence, - pat her and tell her when she's good - communicate to her, when she's doing the right thing, because like my fave old horse, she would stand still for me eventually, yet wuld still act up for others so they will come to tell you apart from other people , and know that you're different... ok, well good luck qwerty, - you'll get there sooon enough!!!:D

[jillaroo]

I had similar problems with the school horse I ride who apparently can't be tied up while tacking up and so is tacked up in his stall. He would pin his ears the minute you walked into his box with the saddle pad and I still run my fingers over the bl**dy great divot he took out of the wall when he kicked as I placed the saddle on his back. After this effort I spat it completely and decided that there was no way I was going to put up with this. So I put his head collar on with a lead rope, took him out and rather than tying him up I just draped the lead rope over the rail so that if he panicked he could pull away and not feel the resistance which is what spooks him. It made all the difference. Now the worst I get is pinned ears when I do up the girth.

[Lgd]

My 13.2hh pony snacks at you when you tighten her girth or go underneath her belly to pick up the cross straps of her rug, in fairness to her she has only actually bitten twice in 5½ years. She is not ticklish and will happily let me clip the underside of her belly with no reaction. She already did this 'trick' when we bought her and we have discovered over the years that she has probably been badly treated in the past. She is terrified of men, can be head shy and has probably been rapped over jumps - it took us 6 months to get her confidence over trotting poles and you still cannot touch a jump when she is approaching, if you do she stops very quickly.
The best solution with her has been to put her bridle on in the stable and put her saddle on outside the stable, she snacks a lot less this way. Because of her background we have been very wary of punishing her with smacks so it has been primarily a sharp verbal NO! if she gets too close. She will now accept a smack but the rule we have is that it is only the flat of the hand on her belly and it is only one slap. Having dealt with this pony I would second other people in saying don't punish her around the head area. Our little mare trusts me now to the point she will actually put her head into the bridle when it is offered to her but it took four years to get to this point.

[qwerty]

I'm OK once the bridle is on because I have controll over her.
It's getting her to turn round so I can put on the bridle more than anything else.
I've tried the whole confidence thing but it never seems to work! She can probably tell that I fake it!
Do you think calmly talking to her would help?
If I can't get her to turn round I really do think she will kick so I sometimes (not always!) get Nina in. Nina seems to just have a way to get her to be good (well better...she still tries to bite her, only the once though!!!). Nina does slap her which stops her biting but I don't want to resort to that, I'd rather stop the biting in the forst place!

[Cathy Reynolds]

Although he is utterly trustworthy we have always tied Benny up in the stable with a small haynet so he is relaxed while Hannah does the grooming and the basic tacking up. It really helps for a small inexperienced rider. That way she isn't shut in with him and unable to open the stable door - we can leave it ajar.

He has a towelling sleeve over his girth. We do the girthing up slowly starting a hole at a time both sides. We swing his haynet away when we put the bridle on. By that time he is sort of psyched up to being ridden - but as always tries to snatch a mouthful of hay on his way out of the stable! Then we always stretch his front legs out to ensure no creases.

[qwerty]

I Always pull the legs.
Jappy has sensitive skin so he has a girth cover.
I was on Jappy today. He was so much better than Bounty. I haven't ridden him for yonks! Pulls some funny faces when you do up his girth! Knows he shouldn't bite so he generally gnaws the bit or the stable door!