Navicular.. and the hell of it.

[Styric]

Well it's happened again.. Chevy went lame last week and got better. Then yesterday I went out to see him and he was so lame he hobbled in anything past a trot, and then wobbled a bit in the walk after. My mother didn't want to call the vet.. I ignored her and called the vet myself.

The vet trotted him then poked him with hoof testers then announced the prognosis: Navicular. He's showing the classic signs of it. He's on bute for a week with icing 3-4 times a week until next Tuesday when they're going to adjust his shoeing. If that doesn't do it, they want to inject him with cortisone again.

I personally would prefer getting a therapeutic farrier out for a second opinion and xrays but I've been vetoed again. Same with pulling his shoes or doing anything else.

Really down now.. I've seen horses put down because of this..

[Shadowlark]

OHHHHHH big hugs your way!!!

[Sammii]

Try not to worry as for the moment, there is nothing you can physically do about it :)

My horse has got navicular, he's had it for about 3-4 years now, the vet said that it was a strong case, and that he would never be sound for more than a day, Julie had x-rays done (£3000 worth) and they found out exactly what it was, because they knew of all people that a vet's description of navicular could be any lower leg pain.

He was treated by his usual farrier that had shod him successfully a year before he got diagnosed with the disease. He was put on raised heel shoes, he was slowly introduced back to work, and he is now currently ridden every day, walk, trot & canter, jumped on the odd occasion, and is back to wearing his normal shoes 365 days a year.

He is very happy, and loving the work....so it's not all bad news. :)

[Bay Mare]

My friend just had her horse PTS because of a vaguely diagnosed 'navicular syndrome'. I don't think that they ever knew what was causing the intermittent lameness and she didn't have enough experience or knowledge of barefoot to give it a go. A real shame as there are a lot of good stories out there about barefoot and navicular.

I hope that you can find a way to get a second opinion and maybe go barefoot. All the best to you x

[MelanieD]

Hoof testers aren't really the proper way to diagnose navicular, they can only show an area where there is pain and pain in that area of the foot can be many things. To correctly diagnose navicular a vet needs sets of X-rays over time showing changes or MRI. A good farrier who can figure out what exactly is going on rather than just declare it navicular would be a very good plan.

[galadriel]

"Navicular" problems generally mean "something in the heel hurts." It can be one of many things, and for the great majority of them something can be done to relieve the discomfort.

Here's a great simplification of the issue:

There are two bones actually in the hoof itself, the coffin bone (middle of the hoof, approximately hoof shaped) and the navicular bone, which sits behind the coffin bone. The deep flexor tendon goes down the back of the leg, goes over the navicular bone, and attaches below it to the coffin bone.

Lots of things can cause that apparatus to feel soreness. The one that people usually think of is degeneration (arthritis) of the navicular bone itself. The surface of the navicular bone gets rough, and so it irritates the deep flexor tendon; that makes it sore. The joint itself may or may not feel pain from the arthritis.

However, there are a number of things that can cause soreness in that area that don't necessarily involve the navicular bone. For example, if the horse's legs have been stressed and the deep flexor tendon itself is sore, it may feel most sore at the navicular bone, because it has such an abrupt bend and so much pressure there. If the coffin bone has some arthritis between the coffin and the navicular bone, then it may feel sore at that joint but it really has very little to do with the navicular bone itself.

Even a trin which would work for other horses but just happens to put the wrong stress on this horse's legs could make him sore in the heels. Sometimes fixing "navicular" pain is as simple as changing the shaping of the hoof during trimming.

It's VERY important to figure out just what you're dealing with, which could involve X-rays or ultrasound. (X-rays will show the bones, ultrasound will show the soft tissues like the tendons.) Don't despair yet; navicular is grossly overdiagnosed and you need to know what the REAL problem is before you can fix it.

[Styric]

Xrays from the last time showed no changes and were normal...

I'll ask about ultrasound but I can't even talk anyone into getting a second opinion as usual. 'The vet and farrier know best and would bring someone else in if it was necessary!'.

Barefoot isn't an option, there's no licensed or trained EPs around here. The nearest is a 7-8 hour drive over the American border. I checked last August when he went lame with the same problem. It always happens in the middle of August for some reason and clears up when the snows hit.

I figure I'll see what they say next week and if I dont like it, I'll pay to have a remedial farrier who specializes in hoof problems look at him. Going to be a neat trick on my tiny paycheck but probably the only way it'll happen.

[parsharainbow]

As far as I know they can't diagnose navicular without x-rays, navicular disease is a degeneration of the the navicular bone and will show up in an x-ray, my horse has navicular and was given tildren as a result which gave us remarkable results, he's now sound (except for 2 days after he's shod) and is working really well, I only ride him on a surface now as he has pedal osteitis too but with correct shoeing, management and feed he's sound and on no painkillers :)

I would make sure you get x-rays as navicular is too often misdiagnosed because people can't make a correct diagnosis :)

[Jessey]

Seems odd that it clears when the snow hits, Have you mentioned that to your vet? and that X-rays were clear, which would say it is not a boney problem.
Perhaps it is more soft tissue based (when it snows it cools the leg regularly which would reduce any swelling etc) perhaps the DF tendon/sheath is a little swolen/irritated? perhaps the hard ground in summer jarrs it or the fact that he is working harder/out more is why it happens when it does?

Lots of questions, but might be worth asking your vet, if you can't get a second opinion perhaps you can, very politely, get him to consider his a little harder :D

Best of luck

J x

[rusk]

That is what I feel like saying every time I hear the word 'Navicular' spoken!!:eek: It really makes me angry as I am sure that is the usual answer a vet gives when he doesn't know what the heck it is!
My farrier tells me that most horses will have some signs of Navicular but it isn't necessarily going to make them lame. Lameness can be a 101 things so they have to come up with something I suppose. Try not to worry too much, it might not be too serious after all. I will keep my fingers crossed for you.
My horse was diagnosed with Navucular about 7 years ago and he is absolutely fine.

[SupaTania]

Taz was diagnosed with navicular by a vet after 1 set of xrays. Farrier has looked at it and stated that the xrays weren't clear or good enough to tell much of anything.

Even so, he is shod only upfront, barefoot in the back. Has been sound for several months, and is now back in full work including weekly jumping lessons with me. (granted only crossrails, and the occasional 2'6 but even still!)

Get a GOOD farrier, and a second opinion before making any rash decisions.

[Shadowlark]

AHHH Tania, NOW you have hit oh Styric's issue. What you are suggesting is perfectly reasonable.

Mum however controls the purse strings.. and sees things her own way and to heck with Styric's opinion. All the decisions are made for Styric, despite her knowledge and interest in what's BEST for Chev - her mother takes the narrow view and sticks with the same vet/farrier etc. Not to mention the RI.

It's a very sad and frustrating situation that she is in right now as she wants poor Chev to be sound and happy and is being ignored on all counts.

Hence yet again I itterate.. *HUGGS to you Styric hunny*

[ImaLittleBoston]

Ahww :( I know how bad that can be on a horse. My aunt has a AQHA mare, who was diagnosed with it. Shes not lame yet, But vet bills, farrier bills, You wouldnt beleive it! And this mare came from champion reining bloodlines. So money is and was really tight for her, But she shows, so she went out and bought another AQHA. This time a $7000 7 year old Gelding. Whos been fine so far.

[parsharainbow]

That is what I feel like saying every time I hear the word 'Navicular' spoken!!:eek: It really makes me angry .


Thats exactly how I feel too, my horse has navicular diagnosed with nerve blocks and xrays and it makes me so ****ed off when all these horses get diagnosed with it without x-rays its just a fob off - as is the pedal osteitis fob off - its just a widely used term for we don't actually know whats wrong - it makes me mad - mine does have both of these and they are both correctly diagnosed and it took 4 months to collect all the xrays and evidence

[Styric]

AHHH Tania, NOW you have hit oh Styric's issue. What you are suggesting is perfectly reasonable.

Mum however controls the purse strings.. and sees things her own way and to heck with Styric's opinion. All the decisions are made for Styric, despite her knowledge and interest in what's BEST for Chev - her mother takes the narrow view and sticks with the same vet/farrier etc. Not to mention the RI.

It's a very sad and frustrating situation that she is in right now as she wants poor Chev to be sound and happy and is being ignored on all counts.

Hence yet again I itterate.. *HUGGS to you Styric hunny*


Thank you :) The hugs are more than appreciated.

Doesn't help I've taken the summer off from riding to regain my confidence in myself.

I agree with you all that this is a hasty diagnosis, and there should be far more investigation then has occured. It's like having a doctor saying 'oh there's something wrong in your foot.. I'm not sure if it's soft tissue or bone.. but take an advil! It should fix it!'.

I've decided I'm gonna let him sit with the bute and shoeing change as they're looking to adjust breakover and toe length rather than a heel wedge, which I agree with as a good idea. If they decide to do a cortisone shot either without me, or ignore my request to discuss the matter with a leg/hoof specialist and get x-rays and such done (which I'll pay for), I am signing his ownership papers over. I'm willing to look into the cortisone more AFTER discussing the diagnosis more with another vet or two and another farrier or two as well, it's just everyone thinks because I'm looking for a second opinion I'm slandering the vet and farrier I have :/ But I cannot put up with being treated like a whiny child when I'm concerned with his welfare and future soundness... and I will not. I don't know how I'll forgive myself for not being there and looking out for him, but at that point he'd be in the same spot with or without me.

[parsharainbow]

Thank you :) The hugs are more than appreciated.

they're looking to adjust breakover and toe length rather than a heel wedge, which I agree with as a good idea.

I've had both and I think youre making the right decision - Red did need heel wedges originally as both front heels were collapsed and too low and he went like a bag of poo to be honest in them, as soon as we replaced them (about 6 months later) with a graduated bar shoe to hold his foot together and to reduce movement of the foot, with a rolled toes to reduce the breakover he went amazingly well :)


If you ever want to PM me please do :)

[Yann]

Got a friend with an ex racer who faced exactly the same situation, but was able to get x rays which confirmed poor foot balance (long toe, low heels) as the cause rather than any navicular degeneration. The horse was started on a course of vet supervised remedial farriery but ended up without enough foot to hold a shoe. He's been turned away in a field for the last 12 months or more unshod and is now completely sound.