Using my legs!

[jenren!!]

Ok, well i trotted Aramis a little more today, tryed to get her to work with her back end so the muscles will build up to support her bone spavin.

I dunno, but since a certain RI i ride too much with my hands. Its partly due to the fact i used to be scared to use my legs, because i didnt want her any faster, if you get me. So now my riding is in pieces because i fiddle so much with my reins.

Im trying to use my legs more, and first, but im having problems. Today i put her into trot and fiddled alot with my outside rein, and pushed with my legs to get her into an outline. It worked, but she argued and i didnt feel alot of power from behind. Then my friend stopped riding and watched me for a bit. She said to keep a firm contact with my outside rein, a lighter contact with my inside rein and to push with my inside leg. Fine, but Aramis just had her head stuck to the outside because of the stronger contact on my outside rein, so i kept finding myself grabbing the insde rein to pull her head back staright. My friend said i needed to get her to bend round my inside leg but it didnt work. Eventually it did, but it took time. Aramis leans on my outside rein because my contact is too strong - i keep tweaking it all the time to ask for an outline, when i shouldnt.

I need to stop fiddling - riding with no contact at all helps, but how do i keep her balanced without moving faster doing this? I have alot to learn...im not a bad rider, honest :o :p

[NoviceNic]

You wont get a brilliant outline straight away. You have to ask for it and the minute she gives it to you praise her. Lunge work with side reins may help. Dont do the side reins up too short. Keep them long and then bring them in a little week by week. I am not sure if lunge work is a good idea at the moment though as you are bringing her back to work carefully because of her bone spavins. But if she is good listening to voice commands and you can keep her to walk and trot then maybe worth a go.

[jenren!!]

To be honest its not really her i need to work on, its me. I need to improve my riding so it improves her. I know it will take a little time until she works properly but i want to be doing it right so that she will do it properly eventually. I want to be encouraging the right muscles. I dont want to end up building all the muscles up under her neck from fighting the contact.

[Guest]

This is basically the principle my new RI is using with me and Bry at the mo.

As long as you have your outside rein there to 'contain' any speed generated by using your inside leg then she shouldn't go any faster but create impulsion.

Don't try and do it all at once, it will take time.

[cvb]

Im trying to use my legs more, and first, but im having problems. Today i put her into trot and fiddled alot with my outside rein, and pushed with my legs to get her into an outline.

Jen - if you "fiddle a lot" with the outside rein - what are you actually asking the horse to do ? Often the horse responds not by accepting the contact, but by evading it - just in a different way.So it feels different to the rider but is not a true acceptance.

"It worked, but she argued and i didnt feel alot of power from behind."

Now if you don't have the acceptance of the bit/rein/hand, then putting the leg on is a bit like turning the tap on to fill the sink, but with the plug out :eek: i.e. the "Power" you are putting all that effort into creating is just flowing away the wrong way :(

"She said to keep a firm contact with my outside rein, a lighter contact with my inside rein and to push with my inside leg. "
diagonal aids - leg into hand.

"Fine, but Aramis just had her head stuck to the outside because of the stronger contact on my outside rein, so i kept finding myself grabbing the insde rein to pull her head back staright. "

Can you see that this is the same thing, just manifesting a different way ? She is still not wanting to accept the rein...

"My friend said i needed to get her to bend round my inside leg but it didnt work. Eventually it did, but it took time. Aramis leans on my outside rein because my contact is too strong - i keep tweaking it all the time to ask for an outline, when i shouldnt."

OK, so you did get some acceptance starting to come, by using leg into hand - but you are getting too much weight in the outside rein still - so there is a resistance/brace there...

I need to stop fiddling - riding with no contact at all helps, but how do i keep her balanced without moving faster doing this? I have alot to learn...im not a bad rider, honest :o

Its all about her accepting the aids - if not its the water running out of the sink ;) If you ride with no contact it simply avoids the problem - which won't help the joint and won't help you improve. But you may find that a warm up in a longer outline is of use sometimes....

Now - I know this problem as my mare has hock problems (recently diagnosed as spavin/DJD) and therefore needs to work properly in order to help the joint and prevent her being unsound. PLUS being between hand and leg reduces her likelihood of spooking - which is a good thing !

You are right that you are the key - the softness needs to start with you. But you also need to be quite strict/assertive to not allow the horse to get away with the various evasions. i.e. if they lean, ask them not to - if they rush, ask them not to. Ask first, then insist. For their own soundess they need to do it *your* way. (which is hard if you are worried about your own riding !)

My normal reference for working on softness is Mark Rashid - there are some notes from previous conferences on the forum if you do a search. This post is getting a bit long so I may have to break ( and get some sleep !) before I add any more detail...

[NoviceNic]

My RI though has been having me holding onto the reins really tight and to keep squeezing. If I lean back more as well it makes Captain bring his head down and work in a decent outline for a cob. But i am not too happy with pulling on the reins like I am. It is hurting my fingers so it must be hurthing his mouth. :confused: I am looking to find a new RI when I move yards. ;) so will continue to work on his outline.

[jenren!!]

if they lean, ask them not to - if they rush, ask them not to. Ask first, then insist.
Thanks :). Although can i just ask how you do this? How do you ask her not to lean and rush?

[cvb]

My RI though has been having me holding onto the reins really tight and to keep squeezing. If I lean back more as well it makes Captain bring his head down and work in a decent outline for a cob. But i am not too happy with pulling on the reins like I am. It is hurting my fingers so it must be hurthing his mouth. :confused: I am looking to find a new RI when I move yards. ;) so will continue to work on his outline.

Shucks - should really get some sleep - but what the 'eck...

NN - try this with a friend - get a pair of reins and each hold one (pair) end as if riding. Now one of you take a firm contact - what does it make the other do ? (I'll bet they match the contact).

Now - try and find ways to maintain the length of rein you started with, but get them to lighten up at their end. (Hint - try a half halt !).

Statement of the obvious warning: You can have a shorter rein without it being a *heavy* rein.

BUT - the horse needs to lighten as well for this to happen i.e. they need to soften and accept the bit. NN I *think* your RI is getting you to take more of a contact and then the squeeze is to ask the horse to lighten - but it sounds like you are not yet getting the lighter feel ?

NN - what do you think changes when you "lean back" ? Could it be that you are normally slightly forward and the "lean back" puts you into balance ? (as I'd be surprised otherwise as this will out you behind the movement :confused: so it would have to be changing something in your shoulder and elbow that helps you and him soften ?)

[Guest]

Nic I agree you shouldn't be hanging onto his mouth...theres a difference between having a firm yet soft contact and yanking on his mouth. The leaning back might be to correct your position though if it's a bit off.

Jen....I'm not sure about the leaning but with Bry I have a softer but directing contact on the inside rein with my shoulder back, with the outside rein I control the speed so if she rushes I use the outside rein to half halt and bring her speed back down but still use the inside leg to ask for 'impulsion' in effect I catch the energy in my outside rein as it comes up...does that make sense.
If her neck or mouth feel like she is leaning I take her on a circle and ask her forwards untill she softens which eventually she always does.
Not sure if any of this is right but others will advise you better.

[jenren!!]

Excellent - that does make sense thanks. I will try her on a circle as i have tried this before and it does seem to work. She will find it hard at the moment as she doesnt have an awful lot of muscle so i will do it in short spells. Maybe bring her back to walk when she rounds so she knows its right? Then try again?

[cvb]

Thanks :). Although can i just ask how you do this? How do you ask her not to lean and rush?

Jen

Well - often when we first train horses we do allow *any* leg aid to mean "more energy forwards"

But then we need to refine it into "more energy, sideways" or "more energy, collected" and so on. So quite often they will respond to the aid with "more energy faster" and we have to say "no, not this time - THIS is what I want"

I should add one quick comment - you can use too much leg. There is a tendency to teach "leg into hand" without looking at how much is right.

I was looking at something for Skib in a book" Workbooks for the Spanish School". There is a note about lightness where he draws a series of pictures showing the "weight" in ounces of hand,leg and seat as you get the horse lighter. It goes something like this (without the pictures) - getting lighter left to right


Hand 5oz 4 oz 3oz 2oz 1oz
Seat nil 2 oz 4oz 8oz 16oz
Leg 5.5oz 4.5oz 3.5oz 2.5oz 1.5oz

Notice how there is slightly more leg than hand in each case, but only just !

So - imagine you ask the horse to soften by half-halting. Before the half-halt you have "5oz" weight in your rein. You half-halt but offer an "after" weight of 4 oz... i.e. you offer lightness to the horse. See what happens. If they still rush or lean, half halt again. You will probably find that if they do rush or lean, the rein weight has gone up to 5 or more - so you half halt and offer a lighter weight after... repeat... many many times ;)

You also need to do a self-check on a regular basis - check that YOU are in self-carriage, are centered and balanced, are breathing, are "owning" your hands, elbows, arms...

[cvb]

Excellent - that does make sense thanks. I will try her on a circle as i have tried this before and it does seem to work. She will find it hard at the moment as she doesnt have an awful lot of muscle so i will do it in short spells. Maybe bring her back to walk when she rounds so she knows its right? Then try again?

if they brace the muscle in their neck, asking for lateral bend (e.g. a circle) helps unbrace it.

If you are worried about what number of circuits or how tight a circle she can cope with, then work just to the limit i.e. use a bigger circle - or just an arc - at higher speeds and spiral it in to what she can cope with at lower speeds.

You can use half-circles - half-circle away from the track and then incline back - gives a change of rein - then repeat - so its like a bow tie...

If she starts to manage circles, you can use serpentines. (The repeated change of rein can unsettle them to start with...)

[jenren!!]

Sorry for all the questions, but is it ok for her to be doing work like this? She has only been in work a few days after the diagnosis. She has only had short spells of trot so far and the vet said to trot her after about 4 days of just walking. Is it better just to do it in short spells for the moment? I dont want to make her leg worse by overworking it thats all.

[cvb]

Sorry for all the questions, but is it ok for her to be doing work like this? She has only been in work a few days after the diagnosis. She has only had short spells of trot so far and the vet said to trot her after about 4 days of just walking. Is it better just to do it in short spells for the moment? I dont want to make her leg worse by overworking it thats all.

Jen - I do know what you mean. After Fi had her x-rays I was on egg-shells (it was only a few weeks ago).

But she proceeded to leap about like a wild thing - I think the key is to let them tell you.

The reason we ended up at the vets anyway was because a certain level of work, and my heavier western saddle, tipped her over into being sore again when she had been getting better and better.

Without the x-rays it would be hard to believe that there is real and ongoing damage to the hock :rolleyes:

What I have been doing since is slowly trying to establish what level of work she *can* cope with without triggering the soreness again.

So we've only been doing maybe 30-40 mins each day of the weekend (in a sand school) and ground work a couple of times in the week to check out for stiffness and lameness. (She was only in light work before because of the previous lameness).

It is important that they work the right way when they are working - but this doesn't have to be *hard* work just *quality*

I was going to post anyway - that you can work on softness and on hind leg activity from the walk - just make it an active walk ;) That way you have the time to work and adjust as a rider.

I am probably overly careful with Fi as previous experience has shown that she is not good at telling you when she is sore - she just keeps going and tried to cope. :rolleyes: But in this case you also want to stop before they are sore, so caution is a good thing.

(I've also been avoiding asking for any cross-over e.g. in lateral work as I figured that might be more stress than she can cope with right now).

One key tell-tale for me is the canter strike-off in right lead - which I can check on the lunge before I ride :) If she has trouble, I know she's a bit stiff and can do more warm up or maybe choose not to canter.

(she loves to canter and actually gets quite fretful when we don't - and starts hopping in trot to try and sneak into canter :rolleyes: I have to be quite strict and stop her !)

[cvb]

Excellent - that does make sense thanks. I will try her on a circle as i have tried this before and it does seem to work. She will find it hard at the moment as she doesnt have an awful lot of muscle so i will do it in short spells. Maybe bring her back to walk when she rounds so she knows its right? Then try again?

some stuff from mark rashid may be useful here. When he gets riders to ask for softness he starts them in walk, and gets them to ask for 3 strides of softness and then release. You release for as long as it took you to get the 3 consecutive soft strides. When you start to get 3 strides consistently, ask for 5 before you release.. and so on until you may be getting 7 or 9 strides of softness each time you ask.

Then you start over in trot, asking for 3 strides... you've already established the principle in walk so they get the idea - but you do still need to start from 3 and build up.

Given what you've just said about taking it easy - you may not want to stay in trot for too long. Are you already getting consistent softness in walk ? if not, do more from the walk...

I also meant to come back to my own comment about "too much leg"... sometimes the horse can't handle the energy in whatever pace they are in - and instead of being able to stay balanced and consistent, they will change tempo, rush, get unbalanced, lean etc. Especially if they are stiff they are going to need more help with this as they are already compensating for the joint problems.

But you don't have to be going fast to get the joints working, and you don't necessarily need a tonne of leg to get them active either. See how *little* leg you can use to get an effect. As with the hand, you want to use less and less. i.e. if they respond with say leg pressure of 7 (out of a possible 10), try a 6 next time and see what happens... if they still respond, try less again.

If they don't respond, take a look at why rather than going up to a leg pressure of 8, or 9, or....

Before the latest lameness, the lesson I had showed me that I needed a small leg position adjustment to get a response, rather than using the leg harder or more frequently. Just because my feet were not quite in the right place in the stirrup :rolleyes:

[jenren!!]

some stuff from mark rashid may be useful here. When he gets riders to ask for softness he starts them in walk, and gets them to ask for 3 strides of softness and then release. You release for as long as it took you to get the 3 consecutive soft strides. When you start to get 3 strides consistently, ask for 5 before you release.. and so on until you may be getting 7 or 9 strides of softness each time you ask.

Then you start over in trot, asking for 3 strides... you've already established the principle in walk so they get the idea - but you do still need to start from 3 and build up.

Given what you've just said about taking it easy - you may not want to stay in trot for too long. Are you already getting consistent softness in walk ? if not, do more from the walk...

Thats really helpful thanks, i will try the 3 strides thing today and tell you how i get on.

As for the softness in walk, she's always been difficult to soften in walk and easier in trot. She argues alot in walk, i ask with my inside leg and ride from my inside leg to outside hand. When i push with my inside leg, what do you do with your outside hand? Keep it still but in a firm contact? She leans when i do this thats all. Will have to have a read of one of your above posts i think you've already covered it. I agree its alot better to achieve the softness in walk first, but i have always found it difficult with her.

Oh and also she is quite a tolerant mare, not too extreme with her behaviour if she doesnt like something, although i could tell she was getting tired yesterday because she all of a sudden dropped to a walk or threw her head in the air.

[jenren!!]

Because she is sound at the moment, i guess caution is all it can be. She isnt showing any discomfort at the moment. In trot, i ask her to round, which works, but i only trot for a circuit and then stop. Im mainly working on the walk.

She rounded a little yesterday. It took me a while and alot of grinding teeth but eventually she started to really stretch her neck in walk, although i was only working in circles.