Clinton Anderson Wahl tour show disappointing

[smaggi]

I saw Clinton about 3 years ago and was very impressed with his Wahl tour show. My OH and I went again last weekend. What a disappointment. He had a colt starting session and was working the colt from the ground and got the colt bucking a lot after he put the lead rope under her tail while he was lunging her. He decided not to ride the colt that day. The next day an assistant rode the colt with him on the ground. This was a calm colt.

He did ground work exercises with a spectator's horse and the schedule said he was supposed to ride it the first afternoon. He did not ride the horse until the next morning. This was also a calm, lazy, pushy horse. He only showed the first 2 exercises from his Ground work level 1 video in the entire 2 hours that he worked with the horse.

The schedule said that on day 2 he was supposed to show ground work from his level 2 video. He only did one exercise from it with the horse from yesterday.

The schedule also said that on day 2 he was supposed to show exercises from his Riding With Confidence Level 2 video with the horse. He only did two level one exercises because he did not ride it the day before.

He was supposed to desensitize a horse from spooky objects. All he did there was run up to the horse while it was tied with his Aussie Tie Ring and did a 1 hour sales pitch on the Tie Ring. There were all kinds of things by the round pen like a tarp, plastic bag, ... that were never used.

All he did for 2 days was talk about stories from his past instead of giving out information from his higher level videos. What a let down.

[smaggi]

He also did a lot of hitting the horses on the jaw and nose. In his videos he usually hits them on the neck if he is moving the shoulder away, but most of it was in the face at the show. These were all calm lazy horses and I think he could have gotten the same results by using the neck instead of the face.

[LodgeRopes]

To all the US forum members..... sorry for Paul Hogan, Steve Irwin, Russel Crowe......and Clinton Anderson :0)

BTW, the Aussue Tie Ring is Ted Blockers invention, Blocker Ranch, Oregon USA, nothing at all Aussie about it. Buy them from ted, they are a lot cheaper. Just another marketing exercise by the Anderson organization. An associate in the US once asked me do I know how they pronounce Clinton Andersons name in the USA?
NO ?,
he replied "Ka- Ching"
:0)
http://www.blockerranch.com/index.php

[ShariN]

That is sad...have seen him in the past and liked him.
Could of been he got hurt or something and did not want to let people know.
Hence the flop at that clinic.

[smaggi]

To all the US forum members..... sorry for Paul Hogan, Steve Irwin, Russel Crowe......and Clinton Anderson :0)

Apology accepted, except for Russel Crowe. There's no excuse for that one.:D


That is sad...have seen him in the past and liked him.

I liked seeing him before too. This time it was too many stories about how he was the best Polocross player in Austrailia ... Blah Blah Blah. How does that help me train my horse? :p

I still like the way his videos are put together. I'll just never go to see him again.

[jUmPingIsLifE]

Hmm...i saw him less then a year ago about 5 or 6 differant clinics and LOVED every single one of them and got so much out of them. sounds nothing like what you saw, maybe something did happen to him?

[KateWooten]

I went to see him last year, and was very impressed. I watched all his videos and am very impressed, I love his book. They have really a lot of good in them for me.

A friend went to see him last week in Ohio. He said he was much, much quicker to raise the pressure on a pushy horse than he ever was before. He seems to be thinking the majority of horse behaviour problems here, is silly women not being assertive enough with their pushy spoilt horses. That may be true, but it's not the only problem by a long shot. Personally, I think he's running a big risk of doing a lot of harm for horses here with this constant emphasis on upping the pressure enough. He needs to spend some time in the gaited show world, and talking to my neighbour Cowboy Bob in the cutting horse world so he can regain a bit of perspective. Lots of people are far too soft on their horses, but, at least here in TN, far, far more of them still teach softness and respect with a 2x4, mercury poisoned hooves, broken bones and peeled ginger.

It's really important to see the great teachers, at the time that they are great. In 1975, we should have gone to see Ray Hunt. In 1990, we should have gone to see John Lyons perhaps. In 2005, Clinton Anderson might well have been the man. Probably each has had his best times. I'm hoping to see more of Chris Cox over the next few years. He has a level of sophisticationin his riding that I think is well worth observing.

[julia gulia]

I've seen Chris Cox quite a few times.
There are so many trainers out there...I think It's nice to find one you can stick with.
I have seen John Lyons many, many times and find him to be very consistent, methodical and quiet around the horses he has worked with.
Just wanted to comment that when one is working with horses...you can't stick to a precise timetable...same with children I suppose....I wouldn't want to see a trainer move onto a new lesson with a horse unless the horse was ready for it, regardless of what the schedule said. Maybe he did see something no one else did? Who knows:p

[smaggi]

I went to see him last year, and was very impressed. I watched all his videos and am very impressed, I love his book. They have really a lot of good in them for me.

I totally agree. We have a lot of his videos and they are filled with some great information. I liked him a lot the first time I went to see him 2 years ago.

A friend went to see him last week in Ohio. He said he was much, much quicker to raise the pressure on a pushy horse than he ever was before. He seems to be thinking the majority of horse behaviour problems here, is silly women not being assertive enough with their pushy spoilt horses. That may be true, but it's not the only problem by a long shot.

I saw the Ohio show too. It seemed like he was sick and tired of working with spoiled pushy horses and didn't want to be bothered training or riding them anymore, so he went for the quick fix, aggression to cause fear instead of getting respect.

It's really important to see the great teachers, at the time that they are great.

I never really thought about that before, but it makes a lot of sense. I saw John Lyons years ago and was a lot more impressed than when I saw him last year. I agree that Chris Cox has a lot to offer. I also saw a cowboy named Pat Hooks at Equine Affaire last spring. He is not as well known, but he really is gentle with horses when he works with them, but he still gets a lot of respect. We bought one of his books and a video and really like them a lot.

http://www.patrickhooks.com/

Here's an archive of some articles that he wrote for the AQHA.
http://www.aqha.com/magazines/americashorse/fixitup/Fix%20It%20Up%20Archive.html

[smaggi]

I've seen Chris Cox quite a few times.
There are so many trainers out there...I think It's nice to find one you can stick with.

I like to take bits and pieces from a lot of them. I think they all have some very good ideas.

I wouldn't want to see a trainer move onto a new lesson with a horse unless the horse was ready for it, regardless of what the schedule said. Maybe he did see something no one else did? Who knows:p

Although the horse did not do the exercise perfectly, it had a very good understanding of it. He could have easily moved onto the next one or at least talked about what he would do next.

[julia gulia]

I've never heard of Pat Hooks Smaggi....I'll have to check him out:)
Have you seen Pony Boy? What did you think of him?

[KateWooten]

I saw Pony Boy at Equine Affair last year. I walked away. I have a DVD of his too - it's dreadful ! Well, ok, not dreadful ... it's all the same stuff as anyone else, not very well produced, very little footage of the actual training - very very superficial... and as always, hinges a lot on his fantasy of the ancient Native American tradition of horse gentling handed down through many generations LOL!

[julia gulia]

Would have to agree but he was quite funny when I saw him and seemed to have a good sense of humour :D

[smaggi]

I've never seen Pony Boy. My OH bought his book Horse Follow Closely a few years ago. He said that he enjoyed it a lot. I have to admit that I never read it.

[julia gulia]

I have that book:D ...Not much in it but nice pictures:p

[smaggi]

I love the pictures too. I didn't read it, but I looked at the pictures.:p

I started picking up feathers when I trail ride and I braid them into Cisco's hair because of that book

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c361/smaggi1/turkeyFeathersClose.jpg

[julia gulia]

O.M.G ...Beautiful picture:) Cisco is gorgeous.
Maybe I'll do that to Bernard:D

[smaggi]

He's my Indian war pony. Just call me GaWaNi Pony Girl.:D

[julia gulia]

:D :D :D I'm quite sure that if I put feathers in Barney's mane I will look like GaWaNi silly girl:p :p :p

[smaggi]

Only if you buy a pink feather duster and use those.:D

[julia gulia]

Yes, and it would depend on where I put them too!!!!:p

[levi1739]

I attended 'most' of the Anderson show in Ohio. I had a lot going on but did manage to watch at least some of the show. It never fails to amaze me how quickly a good handler can change a disrespectful horse.

He seems to be thinking the majority of horse behaviour problems here, is silly women not being assertive enough with their pushy spoilt horses. That may be true, but it's not the only problem by a long shot. Personally, I think he's running a big risk of doing a lot of harm for horses here with this constant emphasis on upping the pressure enough. He needs to spend some time in the gaited show world, and talking to my neighbour Cowboy Bob in the cutting horse world so he can regain a bit of perspective. Lots of people are far too soft on their horses, but, at least here in TN, far, far more of them still teach softness and respect with a 2x4, mercury poisoned hooves, broken bones and peeled ginger.

I think Clinton realizes that most (all?) horse handling/riding problems are caused by the horses having a lack of respect. Pushing, bucking, rearing, kicking, etc. are each caused because the horse chooses not to respect the riders cues. Clinton knows how to gain a horses respect, and he knows how to do it quickly. He talks and talks, telling stories which confirm his methods, doing demo's with rude scared horses, and hoping that people listen and learn from his experiences. Sadly, most people don't learn.

It seemed like he was sick and tired of working with spoiled pushy horses and didn't want to be bothered training or riding them anymore, so he went for the quick fix, aggression to cause fear instead of getting respect.

I don't think he's tired of working with spoiled pushy horses. I suspect that he's sick and tired of hearing the same stories from the public, giving the same answers and knowing that "most of them will take this info home, try it once, and then pitch it in the closet. He realizes that a lot of the crowd will continue on with the same problems, disrespectful horses. He's trying hard to show us how to gain the respect were looking for, and often we don't listen.

I watched Clinton work with three different horses. He changed them all within the first 30 minutes he had them in the arena. He accomplished this by using only one method, he moved their feet, when he wanted and where he wanted. He 'whacked em' when they didn't move, and left them alone when they did. I watched the horses change, I watched the horses sigh with relief when they realized that "this human" was different. He understood how to speak honestly with a horse and he could be trusted. It was a wonderful thing to watch and I share Clinton's fear that these three horses will be taken home and allowed to return to their old disrespectful ways.

Clinton Anderson (nor Kate's friend) need a 2x4 to gain a horses respect. I suspect both would use one if they felt it necessary, but I can't imagine it happening. Nope, just some pressure (much as needed) and good timing with the release. Clinton's one of the best at teaching it, he just needs more humans to listen.

Now, for those of you that have seen Clinton Anderson work with a horse, I ask:

When he 'backs a horse up', how far and in what direction does he go?

Have you ever tried it with your horse?

Smaggi, I agree, he's upping the pressure quicker, but I think there is a good reason he's doing so. "People have to see this", is something I heard him say recently. It's true, folks don't understand that when he does his "Precious" routine, he's probably talking about them. Most folks aren't willing to push a horse past it's limits. It's scary and they quit, exactly when they needed to up the pressure.

I like Clinton Anderson, and recommend that all new horse owners purchase his respect dvd's.

Have fun, be safe

Jack

http://www.horsesplay.us/phpBB2/index.php

[levi1739]

oops, double posted, sorry :o

[smaggi]

Levi1739, I have always been a Clinton fan and have always recommended his videos in my other NR posts. We have the Gaining Respect and Control on the Ground 1 and Riding With Confidence 1 videos at home. I have used all the exercises on my own horse and they have worked well and made a huge difference. We also have several of his other videos.

I will still recommend his videos to people. We even bought his video on canter leads and lead changes at the show. The videos are very well done. He usually uses a hot horse and a lazy horse on the exercises so that you can see how to handle both personalities. He also usually has a section on Handler mistakes and troubleshooting for each exercise.

I still have to say that I was very disappointed with the clinic in Columbus. It was not nearly as good as the first one that I went to and I doubt if I will ever go see one of his clinics again.

[Kate F.]

For my sixpennyworth...

1) I don't think there is any excuse for Anderson (or anyone charging for people to watch a demo!) to not fulfil what they promise on the programme without an explanation. If he was ill/injured or whatever, he should say so, and explain what he's going to do instead and why. Not delivering and not explaining why is just rude and arrogant.

2) I think there is an element of the "stars" going stale on their work and getting rougher and trying to take short cuts to get quick results - but there's also a more discerning public out there that pick up on these things. When you start out, you're impressed by just about everything. Then as you get to understand more and more about how the horse works, you also get more discerning as you watch others doing it and realize when they are being rougher than necessary. for example.

3) I think the time is coming (or has already come!!) to drop the "gurus" and get down to the basics. There's far too much star-struck adulation of these characters (not just Anderson - others too) and they are playing up to it. At the end of the day, that may fill their bank accounts, but it's not helping people get better with their own horses. I've been changing my own teaching format gradually to get everything less and less confrontational. The vast majority of riders are women, and many aren't very assertive. It doesn't matter if I can trailer load their horse, walk it over the stream/bridge or whatever, THEY have to be able to do it - so I have to find a way that it can work for them. A few horses need a bit more pressure to get things going, but a lot don't. Working with less pressure and more accuracy may take a little longer (though not always!!), but they can do it themselves and it will work.

They pay me to teach them, not to show off what I can do.... and I think a lot of the gurus, although they say they want people to learn, all they really want is to get paid for showing how great they are. Unfortunately, they measure how great they are in how quickly they get results, not how long they last or whether the owner can then do it.

[Cochise]

To all the US forum members..... sorry for Paul Hogan, Steve Irwin, Russel Crowe......and Clinton Anderson :0)


Only the US members? What about us Kiwis? ;)

Hehehehe.

I've read Clinton Anderson's book. Hmmm. I just sort of lost interest, and just enjoyed looking at the pictures of the pretty horse. And he has a really big shiny white smile.

[smaggi]

To all the US forum members..... sorry for Paul Hogan, Steve Irwin, Russel Crowe......and Clinton Anderson.

To all non US forum members ...... we apologize for Tom Cruise and Britney Spears. :p

[Cochise]

Oh, and so the Aussies are finally taking responsibility for Russell Crowe? He's been a kiwi to the Aussies and an Aussie to the kiwis for years now! :D
OK I'll stop now. :p

[LodgeRopes]

Cochise, as i wander thru life there always seems to be a kiwi lurking around somewhere just waiting to remind me that the most successful Australians came from ENZED....lol :0)

Kate, I read your post, now tell us what you really think?

It is no secret that we have no time for Mr Anderson,
Can he ride?
Sure can and sticks to that saddle, but then again he has to after turning a scared horse into an emotional wreck by 'flooding' it with stimuli till it shuts down, blows up or fights back.
Can he entertain?
You bet, his stories and yarns are entertaining, especially the ones about illegally killing fully protected native wildlife.
Do his techniques work?
They sure do get the horse moving, but then again if someone was dragging, hitting and choking me, I'd move too.

Personal experience with Mr Anderson left us with definate opinions, he is a showman, salesman and good rider, but would we let him anywhere near any of our horses?...............not while we still drew breath.

That is the good thing about working with horses, they still like to hang out with you even when you make mistakes.

Sorry to hear that the events were light on substance, Clinto does have a lot of knowledge and experience, but the search for short cuts doesnt always pay off. To paraphrase... sometimes it takes as long as it takes.

[Tootsie4U]

Most folks aren't willing to push a horse past it's limits. It's scary and they quit, exactly when they needed to up the pressure.

Where does the pressure stop?

Its not a matter of 'prescious' IMO, its a matter of people who want a different type of relationship with their horse. Respect through intimidation isnt respect - its a four letter word beginning with "F".

Smaggi, I too had a similar experience with Monty Roberts. Its a good reminder that these guys aren't larger than life and they're no better than the rest of us as long as our intentions are true.

I saw Chris Cox and was completely over taken by his demo. It was on the influence of your seat to control your horse. He started off having the demo ridden by its owner. The pair were all over the place - screaming and bordering on out of control. He got on and the difference was immediate and amazing. By the end of the demo, he had that horse doing reining stops and spins without ANY tack!

[smaggi]

He got on and the difference was immediate and amazing. By the end of the demo, he had that horse doing reining stops and spins without ANY tack!

I saw my OH do that to a friend's grey mare. She is a gentle brood mare that has very little training.

We were singing:
The old grey mare is better than she ought to be.
Spinning like a reining horse.
Trotting like a pleasure horse. :p

I must admit that Clinton can ride. At the end of his show he was on his horse Mindy and it was really great.

I agree LodgeRopes. His techniques work for me and my horse although I'm sure that i don't apply nearly the amount of pressure that he would with my horse. And no, I would not want him to train my horse. He tends to be on the lazy side, so I'm sure he would get a few good whacks.

[FRED]

Can we add the famous Kiwi ....Dame Edna to the sorry list, Makes my skin creep,sorry about that Kiwi folk,you have adopted her/him ..havent you?;)


Interesting reading smaggi,I wouldn't let this guy C.A near Dakota or his ideas, I wouldn't let a number of the big names near him to be honest.
With some its just a case of do as I say,not as I do, but its not acceptable to teach that way I think.
Its remarkable how you can get the horse to respect our boundries{ pushy or even barging horses} without resorting to thumping a horse,perhaps its to subtle for a demo although Im sure Mike Peace talks about this at his demos.

Does C.A. do the backing a horse in 20 minutes stunt? with the bucking horse, sweating heavily{ you too can have a horse this dangerous}This stuff really is a let down for NH.Its so unnecessary.

Its interesting reading about good riders and the way they can influence/ride even difficult sharp horses.

[Cochise]

We seem to have a few ex-UK celebrities settling here. M. Barrymore anyone?

Speaking of demonstrations and so on, I guess I don't move in NH circles, but we don't seem to have many come to NZ. Clinton Anderson certainly doesn't seem to have come here. Unless someone can inform me?

[Kate F.]

Its remarkable how you can get the horse to respect our boundries{ pushy or even barging horses} without resorting to thumping a horse,perhaps its to subtle for a demo although Im sure Mike Peace talks about this at his demos.


Absolutely Fred!! Was thinking the same myself. In a way, there's no such thing as a "well timed whack" is there? If it was well timed, it didn't need a whack! - but as you say, a pretty boring demo for people who can't read the horse already - as nothing much appears to happen! :D :D

Of course, the Kiwis have Mark Todd to be proud off. A country that can produce him can't be all bad! :cool:

[Cochise]

NZ has nothing to be ashamed of. :D And yes, Mark Todd is a nice bonus. :) Along with the heroic road cone slayer, Mr CM Appaloosa.

[FRED]

oh dear, NZ has Mr Barrymore's attentions now {sorry}, we have to many celebs, its a growing industry in the UK !:eek:
We would have a very warm welcome for Mr CM Appaloosa, there are no shortage of traffic cones to be slayed !


I guess it might make demos boring Kate, maybe subtle is old hat stuff these days, its all there written in books and people miss simple problem solving solutions, even when its there in Black and White .

If it was well timed, it didn't need a whack!:) agree 100%

[shelby]

Dame Edna....Kiwi??....OMG NO!!!

Preferable to Sir Les Patterson though!

LOL!!

Re Clinton not doing what was scheduled, sometimes with the best will in the world, a horse just isn't ready to progress to the next level. A good clinician will recognise this and rather than do what the crowd want, will go more slowly to keep pace with what the horse needs. Perhaps this is what happened?

Re NH clinicians in NZ, in the last year we have had Ray Hunt, Steve Brady, Andrew McLean, Frank Bell and in the next few months will have Jock Ruddock (Equine Touch) and Dave Stuart (Equine Ethology) and Dr Robert Miller (Imprint training et al).

Thats not bad for such a small country :)

[Kate F.]

I guess it might make demos boring Kate, maybe subtle is old hat stuff these days, its all there written in books and people miss simple problem solving solutions, even when its there in Black and White .


It think it's more that subtle doesn't sell as well as spectacular! :D Parelli is a good example - a show with lots of whizzes and bangs, and lots of fast talk and hype - but when you watch what he's actually DOING - it's very fine and subtle indeed - he just never mentions that bit!

You're right about the books - and they're not all new, are they? But whether they're 2 years old or 2 thousand years old - the messages are the same for those who want to want to hear them. Sadly, there are still plenty of people around who would prefer to "whack it 'til it works" (under any name!) rather than engage their brains and use a subtle approach!;)

The good news is, Fred, I suspect a lot of what we consider the greats will be at our party under the ocean - so we can enjoy some really fine artistry with horses while we're down there! :D :D

[picaro]

I went to Clinton Anderson's clinic in NY last year. I was very impressed, bought the book and several DVD's. It worked wonders for me.

There are lots of alternatives, Parelli, Lyons etc. I don't worship the ground Clinton walks on but I like his program.

I have taken my spooky, fast, headstrong TB to the point that he does sliding stops on completely slack reins, backs neatly in figure 8's, understands leads, does a nice little canter (he could only run before) etc. I don't consider him finished, by any means but he's come a long way.

It's all true. Clinton Anderson is raking it in. Most of the other guys are too. Thing is, he at least trys hard to impart solid information. Many of the others just put out teasers to get you to buy more stuff.

Anyone out there care to compare notes and start a more detailed training discussion?

[Greentchr]

BTW, the Aussue Tie Ring is Ted Blockers invention, Blocker Ranch, Oregon USA, nothing at all Aussie about it. Buy them from ted, they are a lot cheaper. http://www.blockerranch.com/index.php

Their prices must have just gone up... same price as C. A. advertising :( They even have the same "buy 5 get ____ free" gimmick.

Dang. I'd like to try one of those, but I can't bring myself to pay $20 for a $5 piece of metal!

[KateWooten]

3 inch ring $0.89, double-ended-clip $1.28, piece of baling twine - priceless !

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f135/joePony/tieRing.jpg

(ok, I know, I need to take a pic of the version with the baling twine - that's the 'fixed' version in stalls etc. )

[KarinUS]

I considered checking out his videos until I saw he endorsed the electro shock color for cribbing horses. That's a no go in my book. I don't mind him making a living endorsing things but you got to draw the line somewhere.

[Greentchr]

So Kate- do you use these tie rings? What has been your experience with them? I went to one of Clinton Anderson's Wahl clinics last year also, and didn't really pay any attention to his sales pitch on these things, but then we got a horse that pulls- she flipped head over heels a few months ago, over and down a 3 ft. bank and missed the propane tank by inches. I got some good advice on how to deal with her, but we don't have the facilities yet to follow that advice.

This little ring-thing looks like a good alternative for the time being, because it is a regular pain-in-the-you-know-where to not be able to tie her. We were told she drop-ties. Not.Also that she won't go anywhere. Not.

I like your home-made version! I watched all those little videos on the Blocker site, and I can see that your version, though it is not as pretty;) should be about the same. I would like to know your opinion on them, however- and see the twine version!

[KateWooten]

yep, it works really well, and now I don't tie to anything else.

Before we got our trailer, a friend used to take joe and me out for rides. Hers was a two horse straight load, and joe would obligingly back out on his own when we arrived at the destination. The first time I took him out in our stock trailer, I tied him in there, and when I opened up the back, he obligingly started to unload himself. I shouted stop - but of course, I hadn't trained him for this. He backed out and nearly hung himself. Never again.

Better training on my part would have prevented that, but I'm not perfect, I'll always make mistakes. I just feel happier knowing that they can pull back or pull free in an emergency.

I have 2 of them set up in the rough lower paddock which is the only flat spot around here. I had my poor mare tied to a tree there, while I worked with the older mare, when Rosie started performing. She was being stung to death by wasps. Fortunately she had the tie ring, and could pull back a good long way. Oddly enough, she stopped pulling and didn't get free - so I had to go in and rescue her. That was a heart-stopper, I can tell you, I wish she'd have pulled free.

I've seen a couple of really good shows on using the tie ring to help horses that pull back - well worth seeing. I guess the advertising videos demonstrate the training method, do they ?

The portable baling twine version is really simple. You just use a plain ring, without the bit that attaches to the wall, and tie it wherever you want. The double-ended snap is the same.

[elise]

Here's my problem with Demonstration spectators. Horses are unpredictable. Horse trainers/demonstrators are under a great demand from the spectators to complete what was written on the schedule. I can't remember who it was that was being interviewed but he said, if the horse doesn't appear to be moving in the direction that the demo is supposed to go, he won't get on and finish the demo at the expense of his health or the horses. And I don't think spectators should expect that. And maybe some of the demonstrators are working towards the schedule and thusly working a little more vigorously with the horse than maybe you want to see. But what do you want? Do you want to see the horse do what the scheduel said? Or do you want to see the demonstrator stand out there and pet the horse and be "nice" to him? I'm guessing in a lot of cases both can't really be done. I get quite frustrated when they bring out a fairly easy to handle horse to complete the task because well then how am I going to see how to work with my not so easy horse. Well yeah but then what are the chances that the demonstrator can finish in time? Probably a lot lower. It is all entertainment .

Ok yeah that's my beef. :>

[smaggi]

But what do you want? Do you want to see the horse do what the scheduel said? Or do you want to see the demonstrator stand out there and pet the horse and be "nice" to him?

He was about 1 hour from his training facility. After he worked with the horse ont he first day he already knew he wasn't going to discuss any of the stuff scheduled for the second day. I don't believe that there was no other horse at his facility that he could have used to demonstrate some of the more advanced techniques. He brought a huge trailer. I'm sure he could have fit one more horse.

At the very least he could have discussed some of the techiques instead of completely ignoring the topics on the schedule.

Greentchr, we have 5 of the tie rings and they are wonderful. I definitely recommend them.

[Kate F.]

I can't remember who it was that was being interviewed but he said, if the horse doesn't appear to be moving in the direction that the demo is supposed to go, he won't get on and finish the demo at the expense of his health or the horses. And I don't think spectators should expect that. :>

That's fair enough... and right... but whoever is giving the demo should explain why they are changing the adverstised plan, and give some insight as to what a better path would be for this particular horse. No one could or should complain about that - but to just change or ignore an adverstised plan without explanation is not on, in my book.

[sunnybunny]

Clinton has lost it. I watched him smack horses in the face repeatedly and jerk them til their faces were raw at the wahl tour a few weeks back. We could not believe it. One horse made him mad and he ran it into the wall and said he'd just taught it respect for the wall. Then he downplayed the blood running out of its mouth to the crowd but we were unconvinced. The horse never came back the second day and later i found out the horse was so traumatized and run down it collapsed and almost died. he contradicted everything he'd ever lectured on before. I am telling you firsthand I saw him lose it and go off when the horse wasn't giving to his techniques. He seriously lost it and took it out on the horse. The whole "clinic" was BS anyway- he just tried to push crappy product on you and it was like being in an infommercial. I learned nothing except that I will never put a horse into a clinic like that myself.

[teabiscuit]

OMG he sounds like he shouldn't be allowed near a horse!

Now i know why i get so riled by certain NH advocates and their mantras!

i feel sick now :mad:

[Crystal Fire]

Yes, but what I hate is how one or two bad apples can sour things for the good teachers and trainers.
Surely this was real cruelty and abuse sunnybunnny? Was he reported to welfare agencies? Was anyone videoing for evidence? There must have been plenty of witnesses?

[elise]

It all seems fishy. I've heard another friend with a similar story. She went to school for equine science (or whatever) and for one of their classes they had Clinton Anderson do a demo on trailer loading. According to her, the horse decided that day that he would load without an issue, so the clinician hit him with a stick until he was afraid of the trailer so he could use the horse in the demo. :(

[Crystal Fire]

The problem I have with anecdotes like this is - why doesn't anybody do anything about the abuse?

[LodgeRopes]

The description of Clintons techniques at the clinic sunnybunny attended are horrific and yep, definately considered abuse rather than training.

But in my view Clinton never has been a NH trainer. Yes he throws in a bit of NH, yes he talks about a better method but from the little I have seen ( and sorry but thats all I choose to see of CA) he is a traditional type of "breaker" that puts in a few NH moves to sell his style to the modern day horse person.

as we have repeatedly stated in previous threads, CA is more your old style horse breaker that NH practitioners want to evolve away from.

Just because he may claim the title of "natural" doesnt make it so unfortunately.

Fear and pain is the worst type of motivator for anyone or anything!

[Francis Burton]

The problem I have with anecdotes like this is - why doesn't anybody do anything about the abuse?
Do you mean that the fact no one spoke out publically to criticize what they perceived as abuse at a demo throws doubt on the suggestion that abuse took place? Or is it simply the fact that no one speaks out that is the problem? Assuming no one spoke out at the time, it is still possible that one or more people tried to do something about it but got nowhere with their complaint (otherwise it would be in the news!).

Suppose that 5% of people in a crowd are unhappy enough to want to express their misgivings or outrage. What is stopping them from doing so? Surely it is the fact that they are surrounded by people who probably don't see things in the same way, and who would not react kindly at all to having their favourite trainer ragged. The person who sees the abuse may believe they are the only one who cares, even though there may be others like them. It takes a very brave person indeed (and a rude one) to interrupt proceedings to express an opinion. It is more likely they would walk out, or bite their tongue and wait till the show was finished, and then go and tell... Well, who would they tell? The event organizers? Welfare agencies? They would need witnesses or video evidence, and even then would they be taken seriously? After all, horses are potentially violent and dangerous animals, so if they run into a wall that's hardly the trainer's fault - it must have been a bad horse. And smacking horses isn't abuse, because that's what jockeys do routinely in races (and other horsemen in their sports). And jerking? Doesn't everyone do that?! In the end, it's the word of the little guy, the nobody against the that of the big bucks expert trainer, the one who was cheered to the rafters by 95% of the audience.

[elise]

I can't say for sure why or what my friend did in respect to the horse they had in the demo. I *think* they actually removed the horse from his demo, but I can't say for sure.

I think if I were to see what I thought was abuse, I probably wouldn't do anything, like a previous poster stated, how do you go against a whole stadium of people that believe what he's doing is fine.

On the topic of running a horse into the wall, we employ that tactic for our therapy horses. They don't actually hit the wall, but if a horse won't listen to it's leader the safest way to get the horse to stop is to aim him directly for a wall.

[Francis Burton]

On the topic of running a horse into the wall, we employ that tactic for our therapy horses. They don't actually hit the wall, but if a horse won't listen to it's leader the safest way to get the horse to stop is to aim him directly for a wall.
Curious to know what got the horse started in the first place! What caused the horse to be running such that he doesn't want to stop? When you say you "aim him" is he attached to a line, or is this loose schooling?

[elise]

Curious to know what got the horse started in the first place! What caused the horse to be running such that he doesn't want to stop? When you say you "aim him" is he attached to a line, or is this free-schooling?

I'm referring to our therapeutic riding classes. If a horse spooks or takes off, or just decides he's not going to walk after trotting, we aim towards the wall. This is with a leader, horse in a halter and lead rope, rider, and sidewalkers also with the horse.

Generally if you were just leading a horse without a rider, my reaction to slow a horse would be a circle, but a circle can really throw a rider off balance so we've discovered that heading for a wall is safer for the rider and gets the horse to stop without jerking on his face or upsetting him.

[Francis Burton]

Ah, thank you Elise - it all makes sense now. The scenario I had in mind was rather different (it didn't involve riders), as you probably gathered! My misunderstanding. :o