Horse Whispering

[Christina]

I am at university in England and have been assigned a project fot which I have to find out people's views on a) the horse whispers training methods compaired to the conventional methods and b) their place within the equestrain world.

Your help would be gratefully appreciated.

[Wally]

I hate the term horse whisperer, it is such a nebulous term. All these folk are doing is exploiting the horse's natural instincts without explaining or teaching them to other folk.

Monty Roberts ( though he be a terrible self publicist) has at least taken time to explain exactly what he is doing. Micheal Peace, Parelli and the other famous horse psychologists (which is what they are) take time to impart learning and understanding.

I'm all for using these techniqies, they lower the stress of training for all concerned. I don't think that there is any one trainer who has cracked it. I feel they all need to be studied and the best from each used.

I have had such good results from using such methods, in fact I don't think I have ever "broken in" a horse by conventional methods, I'm all for advancing and learning by demonstration and mistakes.

I'm not sure sacking out or some of the more extreme methods were ever as widespread in the UK as they were in the US, but we do owe the horse an appology as Monty Roberts states, even in the UK.

Some folk still seem to think draw reins and gadgets are the way forward. We have 23 horses and don't own a martingale, running or otherwise!

[ros]

I do think we can learn a lot from the modern "natural" horsemen, but what worries me is that there will always be an element of the horse world that sees their methods as just another quick fix.

I'm sure "join-up" works extremely well if done properly by someone who knows what signals the horse is giving out, when to lay off and so on: done by someone who wants to break their horse in 30 minutes it could be a disaster. And I'm afraid I think pressure halters are just another of those gadgets that can do a lot of damage in the wrong hands.

I don't want to sound too negative, because at the end of the day we certainly ought to be moving towards a much better understanding of the horse and the way we handle him, and I suppose there's always going to be a down-side in any transition phase, which is what we seem to be going through at the moment. I just think we need to use a bit of common sense and not get too carried away with it all!

[Kerry's Partner!!]

The only point I would make is that - for academic purposes - it might be a good idea to provide an "operational definition" of horse whisperer. It's just that people attach different meanings to words/phrases. I think that a psychological/behavioural approach can be extremely beneficial yet I'm a bit doubtful about the term "whispering" - that is if the message conveys something different to an awareness of what the horse might be conveying through its body language and picking up from ours.

[FRED]

Hi Christina,good luck with your project.

I think that the majority of people have enough intelligence to realise that terms such as Horse Whisperer,Horse Listener,Natural Horsemanship etc are mere titles.
There is much publicity about modern training methods for horse and owner.Most ideas are likely to have been around for centuries.They just never got published:rolleyes:

Can you spend time with some one who has spent their life with horses and especialy if they have a herd. You would be surprised at how much they can teach you.Can you watch horses in a good sized herd grazzing.You will see natural horse behaviour,how groups gather of same color/markings.That there is a herd leader and dominant mare,see their behaviour.
Seeing this helped me to understand where the modern horse trainer is coming from,in their use of body laguage to Communicate with a horse,that is labeled horse whispering,{yuk!}

There are brutal methods of training/braking wild horses, used to this day. The horses spirit is broken so that a person can sit on his back.Yet some would guide wild horse into a river and then mount his back,no bucking horse or driving the horse to exhuastion or beating him.The horse learns to accept weight on his back by swiming! I was gutted that I could not spend time with these horsesmen in depths of Canada.
In my opinion, there is great need for open minded horse trainers.
Many have been about for a long time.
Again,good luck with your project and hope not to have confused you.
Best wishes from Fred.

[LindaAd]

You've got a huge subject there, Christina! I agree with pretty much everything that's been said, especially the need for
a definition. I'd suggest you have a look at a book called The Horse in the Furrow, by George Ewart Evans, it's about how people handled farm horses in the 19th century - they weren't called whisperers then, but some of the methods were similar, and it'll give you some background.

What are you studying at university, and how does this fit in?

[Christina]

I would just like to take this opportunity to thank the many people who have replied to the questions/requested opinions on the horse whisper issue. This information is grately appreciated and to answer one persons question about what course i am studing and where this fits in- well I'm studing Equine Science and Management and this question is part of an assignment I got handed by my Riding Horse module lecturer.
Again thank you very much and i hope others will take the time to inform me of their opinion on this issue.
Your sincerely Christina

[intouch]

There is a book called Hores Breakers by Clive Richardson, it's on the BHS bookshop at £19.95, might be useful, it's a history of horse breaking up to and including MR, should be interesting.

[mel_twinn]

HI my name Hannnah:
Where do live
:cool: :cool: :cool: Can we meet.

:D if we can wecan meet.

[rusk]

I recently attended a talk on the subject and I must admit that a a lot of the speaker's theories were NOT well received by the true 'die-hard horsey people' who merely wanted the horse to do what it was told RIGHT AWAY. These opinions are inbred for years through the pony club, riding club etc: The gist was that the horse must be obedient and shown who is the boss. The NH way takes time, not an instant quick fix to problems, such as gadgets, strong bits, twitch and so on. I personally think it is a nicer way to live with your horse, but I can see why it would appear to be giving in or being soft.
To many horse owners, competition is everything and building a relationship with the horse is not on the agenda. Who knows,it may be sold the next season, anyway.
Most of us who love our horses are subconciously 'horse whisperers' in our own way as it's simply a kinder approach to dealing with problems and trying to see the horses' point of view.
Force never really solved anything for long.

[lamprellsarah]

i am studying these methods recently as i have been asked to help train and break in a feisty 15hh cleveland bay x filly.
i really like richard maxwell, and have been reading his book 'from birth to backing', but it will only be me getting on this pony, i will only be up there 2 days a week to work with her, and i want to really gain a trust and relationship with her first!!!

but her owner is very much for getting on with it, she has taught her to lunge and long rein, but i know she will just turn around to me soon, and say, lay across her back,, she has done this with all her other horse, and they are proper eventers now or have been jumping proffesionally in there time!!

should i just get on with it?? or refuse to, unless i can have time training her??

[RoxR]

Did you know Monty Roberts is doing a tour of demonstrations during March?

I won't list all the dates/venues here but have a look on his website

www.montyroberts.co.uk

I'm hopefully going to the Cheshire demo at South View!

Good luck with your assignment Christine - it's one of those subjects that could quite easily turn into a book!

[virtuallyhorses]

I think the terms do breed a lot of resentment and agree with RUSK that a lot of 'horsey-people' spend an awful lot of time complaining the various well-known proponents and their methods. Wally, I'm not sure how you can pick out Monty Roberts as a self-publicist and then talk about Pat Parelli! He sells orange sticks with supermarket bags tied to them!

Anyway, I went along to Equitana in Melbourne last year and saw a bunch of trainers - Pat Parelli, John Lyons, Gawani Pony-Boy, Michael Pariseau etc etc etc

The things I found useful were the things they all had in common - a philosophy that you can't get mad at a horse and you can't allocate time (human time) to training a horse. I also like the fact that they all advocate working\playing with your horse on the ground, getting it to THINK.

They all seem to use very similar techniques, some insist that you can only be successful if you use this bit of gear, or that technique or do it in a particular order (Pat Parelli is a big one for this - and of course all his merchandise is there...) The biggest surprise was Gawani PonyBoy, who I thought was going to be a total freak-show, marketing nightmare and turned out to be absolutely the most practical, pragmatic, useful one of the lot. For all the dressage enthusiasts out there Anky van Grunsven's clinic contained many of the same ideas as these mainly western-riding based trainers.

I've started using some of the techniques and principles with my horse and see the benefits already. His previous owner did a fabulous job with him, but still went to the field and walked to him, to catch him (no problem) - I've been working with him for a few weeks and he see's me up the road and stops eating, comes across his paddock to greet me at the gate...

[ros]

It's interesting that you said that about Gawani Pony Boy. I have his book "Horse Follow Closely" and enjoyed it very much - more as a philosophy than as an instructional manual, but I found it closer to what I want to see in NH than what some of the other trainers of that ilk are offering.

[Sapphire]

I like Pony Boys way of thinking. On his video it showed him loading a horse, no pressure halters, nothing, just him and the horse and if I remember a normal halter. I like the way he done things, and was VERY impressed the way he explained the 'join-up' (though again, I don't like the round pen). In my opinion, no one has explained it in those ways.

He is very much a person who asks you to spend time with the horse, not grooming, feeding, or riding, no, he says go and sit out in that horses field and WATCH him, all day.

I don't stick to any one person for training methods, I use what I can work with and what my horse finds allright. I am still finding my 'way' in the horse world, and I am building up my opinions as I do so, one is no join-up in a roundpen, too darn dangerous. I don't like halters that tighten, I use ones with knots, and I stand my ground when it comes to this. People may not like it, but since when did everyone have the same views?

[Jo]

I'm with FRED - if you can work with an experienced horse owner who has a herd you can observe, go for it. It's fascinating stuff. I've watched for hours and seen an amazing range of behaviour, down to how the behaviour of the herd changes when horses which have been out of the field all day are reintroduced in the evening. The ever-shifting interactions are so subtle I guess I miss half of what is going on.

I am uncertain about the idea of join-up because at some point the horse has to be driven away and I don't see why this has to happen.

I would recommend Micheal Peace's new book (with Lesley Bailey) called "Think Like Your Horse" - it's very interesting and all about communicating effectively with your horse.

Good luck!

[virtuallyhorses]

Yep, one of the things that impressed me most about him was that you didn't have to have any special gear - not even a round pen. All the work he did in Melbourne was in the same arenas and demo areas being used for dressage or whatever, so they were 20 x 40 m rectangular (min).

He explained that the round pen simply makes it easier for you to keep the horse moving - but if you don't have one - you simply have to chase it out of the corners - and sooner or later it stops going in there, because its harder for it to go in\get out as well (we actually saw this during his demos - eventually the horse was working on about a 20m circle even though it had a lot more room it could have used)

The idea with 'driving the horse away' is a herd dominance thing - you'll see it when a dominant horse is added into a group, it uses body language to threaten others into moving off. Its more 'keep the horse moving' - i.e. "I can tell you what to do because I'm the boss" or "when you do something I like I'll leave you alone" - and then the horse figures out what it did good.

It was interesting stuff - I've found it makes me think much more about the things I DO - am I being consistent? Did I just ask it to do 'A' by using signal 'B' and now I'm using a slightly different signal? Am I rewarding bad behaviour because I'm being too slow in response? (3 seconds)

Did anyone else find that the whole "Indian paint" (sorry, I'm not trying to be offensive, but you know what I mean) and soft-focus thing put them off a bit? All his marketing material is VERY stylised and yet he's not like that at all.

[virtuallyhorses]

oohh just thought of something else too - has anyone else ever seen Michael Pariseau ?

If you like him - close your ears\eyes now! :eek:

- what a w..ker (in person) - if ever the concept of men in flashy sports cars to make themselves look younger\sexier whatever applies to horses its him.

Yes, he's trained his horses wonderfully - but oh my goodness - you can see why he's keen on Freisian stallions -because they make him look so good! :rolleyes:

Sorry, had to get that rant out of my system ;)

[Kerry's Partner!!]

And I thought the mission in life was to help the horses (feel good)!!!!! I've always been terribly naive and guess that's how I'll stay.

[Sue Carnell]

I thought this was interesting article relating to this thread.

http://www.gla.ac.uk/External/EBF/acoffman1.html

Sue Carnell
sue@eclipse.co.uk

[virtuallyhorses]

This seems to be a good site too - http://www.naturalhorsesupply.com/training.shtml

It talks about just about all of the things we've been discussing here - using commonsense, taking bits of knowledge from various sources etc

Oh and after my rant, if you aren't familiar with Friesians you can take a look at http://www.michaelpariseau.com/

[KathyT]

I loved the article that Sue sent in. The writing was excellent! Does Amy Coffman write books by any chance!

[Kerry's Partner!!]

I've printed it for use in my equine studies course. Now I do not want to initiate an absolute war on the site but I do hope others visit that article which seems to be written by a well educated person.

It's just that on another site which I will not name nor ever revisit I followed a thread which to me (and this is my personal opinion) seemed to be dead set on criticising people like Mike Peace for not going for a quick fix (e.g. at the equine event last year - which I attended and would not/could not find fault with Mike's demonstration) and for defending the position that time spent is better than using "devices".

Thanks for directing our attention to the article.

[Dizzy]

I'm with you Kerry, I have never believed in quick fixes. To me they are just like putting a bucket under a dripping tap.

Unless you work through a problem until the horse trusts you, understands, is willing and happy - that problem will rear its ugly head again and again and again!

I visit a site where alot (not all) of the posters always recommend upping the bitting power combined with flash/grakle nosebands, using chambons, draw riens, running riens, pessoa's and God only knows what else.

What always strikes me is they always want to insist the horse listens to them, regardless of the implications, it never seems to dawn on them that the horse's behaviour is actually begging them to listen her/him. I'm sure its not intentional, but its a sad fact that there's a very fine line between teaching a horse and bullying it, as many people have absolutely no idea of what pressures these gadgets actually exert. They see them as a way to curb behaviour that they can't control, but don't truely understand why and are confused when the horse finds another way to evade.

Anyway I'll get off my soap box for the time being,

Lesley

[Kerry's Partner!!]

Well said. I agree entirely. By the way I'm Sandra (Kerry the horse's partern - not the kind of partner who expects 100% from the horse - but the type that strives to give 50% to the horse!!).