Silversand NH

[Susara]

A woman at my yard helped me out with some ground work excersizes for my horse. She's Australian, and she mentioned that she works with the Silversand system, which is based on Parelli and I gather it's popular in Oz. Whether it's because Silversand is good or just because she is good, I really liked how she worked with my horse.

I've never seen references to Silversand on NR, and we do have lots of Aussies here don't we? Anyone know anything about it? Any comments?

[Crystal Fire]

Does this mean you've met Tamasin the Silversand associate? :)
Not just Aus, Poland, Germany and the UK - Steve Halfpenny visits every year. I'm sure if you do a search here you will find some stuff, you could also look at the website www.silversand.com.au
There is a clinic report a bit further down, which is about our clinic with Steve in Surrey this year.

[valiant]

Hi Susara, I'm also in SA. I started with Silversands NH, but stopped after a few lessons and changed over to a Parelli based instructor. I'm finding the Parelli-based lessons a lot clearer and simpler to understand and apply. It might just be that the Parelli instructor teaches humans better than the Silversands instructor. :confused:

[Kate F.]

I think that's a very good point, Valiant. We often seem to place a lot of emphasis on the merits of one "system" against another - but at the end of the day there are good and less good instructors in every system and how well any particular instructor communicates with YOU is just as important as the "system" they follow. The "system" is only as strong as the person communicating it, in a way! ;)

Parelli has probably done the most to standardize everything and have everyone following the same pattern - but even so, there is a LOT of variation in the standard and communication abilities of the instructors.

I always say, communicating with the horses is the easy bit - communicating with the PEOPLE is where you stand or fall as an instructor/trainer! :D

[Susara]

Seems like they're still going to charge me and arm and a leg for a 12ft rope, though. :-) Ok, it's a fancy rope alright; with a nifty little leather throng at the one end and all that. But no way am I spending that type of money on something like a rope. I mean really.

Not that it matters much, I'm not taking an official course; the woman is very nice in helping me out for free and I'd rather buy something for her to say thanks :-)

[cvb]

Susara

When I first started doing anything NH, I had a 12ft rope with no clip. When I tried to do Parelli stuff with it, I just did not get the feel etc I needed.

I have found that as time has gone by, I have got better at working with different styles of rope and adjusting to them. For example, I "play" with my 15.12 mare, a 13.3 Fell pony, and a 12.2 Eriskay mare. The 15.1 I use a lightweight 22ft rope with - the heavier style PNH use was just too heavy. For the wee pony, we got the equivalent but shorter. She really hates a metal clip under her chin but tolerates it ok with the lighter rope. The fell pony is fine with the more usual PNH rope style.

But my personal experience is that it was easier to learn with the "right" kit. If not you are looking for a feel that you are simply not getting !

That does not mean you necessarily need to get "branded" versions.

There are alternative suppliers - but take a minute or two to check how what they have compares. (Also talk to LodgeRopes - they supply very good value to UK - from Australia. So might be worth checking what their price to you would be ? That#s where I got my lighter ropes from).

[Susara]

cvb, how important would you rate using a proper rope halter? I've got a snugly (but not tightly) fitting halter made from rather thick synthetic rope, with metal claps where proper rope halters have knots. My horse is not particularly strong so I don't feel the need to use the rope halter pressure points. Or would you prefer the proper rope halter in any case?

[cvb]

I've read of other people having issues with "different" halters where the knots sit in a different place.

Personally we have 2 parelli halters of slightly different sizes, which cover our 3, and I haven't had any issues. I've had way more problems relating to ropes and clips.

I have a really cheap halter of light nylon which I don't use. And don't think I would get the right results from. I'd probably just use it for leading my old chap abou (34) if he didn't just follow us at liberty anyway :cool:

I went to a Leslie Desmind clinic (to watch) and she was talking about the fit of PNH halters and how they have the length of the cheek wrong. I can actually see what she means. She advises specific makers (check her website as I think there are links there) but I don't know which of them do export outside USA.

Also here is Lodge Ropes website
http://www.freewebs.com/lodgeropes/

I know they have done a LOT of work on fit, sizing etc and use the kit themselves. I'm not on commission :p but would thoroughly recommend them.

[Kate F.]

Echo CVB - ask LodgeRopes - top quality rope, well made, very reasonable prices. You'll pay a lot more for less quality in other places - and they're really nice, extremely knowledgable people. (Not an ad. - I'm not on commission either - just a personal opinion from someone who uses this stuff professionally and on a daily basis!) :D

[Skib]

cvb - what do you use for long lining?
Do you know where you can buy 9 m. (c.30ft) which Lodge dont do.

[cvb]

Do you know where you can buy 9 m. (c.30ft) which Lodge dont do.

I bet they would if you asked !

I have to confess, I saw a set someone was using on their Eriskays, discovered they had made them themselves, and got them to make me a set.

In hindsight I *should* have asked LodgeRopes as the clips don't fit through my long-reining roller (but do fit through another roller I have) and the splicing is not to the LodgeRopes standard ;)

But I wanted to play NOW :rolleyes:

Oh - and I suspect it was more expensive as well. (More than mum's 18ft rope plus her wip wop plus postage from Oz !! :eek: ).

Still - what I am currently using with Rosie, Dudley, and Fi is the same set of rope lines (one line, with a clip each end). It seems to be working fine.

I got quite a small set made up cos of Rosie only being 12.2. As a result if I want to work Fi on a big circle around me, with the lines, I (a) take them over her back not round her bum and (b) have to walk a circle myself.

But then with Fi I can revert to my original long lining set (from Sweden).

[Note: Richard Maxwell long lined at his demo. He used two lunge lines and showed two different attachment "positions". One just straight through the stirrups and the other from horse's mouth to some rings he clipped on at the top of the saddle, down to stirrup and then to handler.

Edit to add: and had the outside line coming round behind the horse - often it was quite low, so then you WOULD want split reins]

Did some more long lining this weekend as it was quite windy - they were all very good :)

[Crystal Fire]

If you can get cheaper ropes somewhere other than Silversand go for it :) Selling kit isn't really a driving force for Steve, but he provides it because people ask for it. It's darn expensive to get it out to SA, apparently tax is a pain as well, so it can't be done cheaper from Australia. If you can make your own rope halters do it. The knots aren't critical in acting on "pressure points" - they don't. But what you do need to do is make sure that they fit, with the knot at the side fitting snugly behind the cheek (because if on the cheek they can cause nerve damage), the noseband at the right height to avoid discomfort and not too much dangling underneath. Personally I don't use the Parelli-style ropes because of the way they can bang on the horse's face. (I do like the sticks that Silversand get made though, because they are so light).
I agree, I think it is more difficult to learn the "Silversand" way. Compared to Parelli there are a lot more variables. In Parelli it's a very structured and systematic system that is supposed to work on all horses. For example you have the phases as an easy way to up your pressure to get a horse to respond. Won't go backwards? Phase 1, 2, 3 and 4. What I have found when taught by Steve is that you may need to work out a different way to help your horse to understand, but not by working up through phases 1-4. Your "ask" should stay soft, you explain by adding something else, not increasing your ask (phase). Just the most obvious difference that strikes me, but of course there are others.
I suspect you can also get more choice of Parelli instructors in SA? The Silversand team are a small number of people, no way will they ever be competing with a huge organisation like Parelli. In the UK I think we are lucky because we have several instructors, so we can learn with the one whose style we like best, but in SA you only have the one don't you? Shuna Shaw from Silversand did teach in SA for one series of lessons, but economically it doesn't work out, what with the exchange rates and flights, you're pushed to even cover costs, let alone earn some income... The economics for visiting instructors aren't good :(

[Crystal Fire]

p.s. I think how we learn from anyone has a lot to do with our own personal style. I've had instructors that I thought were brill that friends just couldn't learn from, and one that everybody loved... except me :D

[Susara]

But what you do need to do is make sure that they fit

Thanks, I'll have a look at that. My halter's got a pretty heavy metal ring where one clips the rope onto. That's probably not so good.

What I have found when taught by Steve is that you may need to work out a different way to help your horse to understand, but not by working up through phases 1-4. Your "ask" should stay soft, you explain by adding something else, not increasing your ask (phase).

That's definitely what I saw her doing. She stayed soft, but did change her ques to get him to understand. My horse is young and did get a bit upset about the whole lot at first, but it was nice to see how calm he got once he clicked.

I suspect you can also get more choice of Parelli instructors in SA?

I'm not really part of the wider horsey scene as I've only been riding a few years and I don't compete. I first learnt about NH at an open day of the SA Cowboy School, check www.sacowboy.co.za. It was a total eye-opener; at that stage I'd been riding for 2 years and I'd never seen this way of working with horses. An it's not just SA; I had riding lessons at two yards in Denmark and nothing like this was seen there either.

Is it true to say that even elsewhere it seems like Western people are more NH-aware than English? Please, I ride English myself so this isn't flame bait :-)

Anyase, after being to the Cowboy School I used to think NH was pretty unknown in SA - doubt whether my previous YO would recognise the names Nuno, Monty or Parelli :-) Only since I've moved to a new yard did I learn that there are many more NH-aware people in SA than what I thought. But yes, I would guess you'd have more Parelli instructors than others here.

In the UK I think we are lucky because we have several instructors, so we can learn with the one whose style we like best, but in SA you only have the one don't you?

I really don't know how widely available NH trainers are here. I see a new South African (Valiant) has recently joined NR, and he does Parelli. My guess would be you're right.

I'm very lucky that the Silversands lady is willing to help me out. She's not a qualified instructor but I don't mind; I like picking up advice from different people and figuring out what works for me. So I'd prefer not following any particular school too closely.

[Crystal Fire]

My horse is young and did get a bit upset about the whole lot at first, but it was nice to see how calm he got once he clicked.
I think we can all get a little upset when we are learning, but if we are helped to understand fairly then it's fine.
I think Parelli pretty much pulled out of SA because of the difficulty in making any money out there, the economics are really difficult. Whether or not you get any PNH endorsed instructors visiting I'm not sure, but I guess their website would say. I know we only have the one Silversand associate out there, but that doesn't mean that another student can't help you. If you like what they do and the way they do it, then it always seems that is a good person to learn from to me. Personally I'd tend not to mix the two approaches, when it gets down to application they are quite different and it could be confusing maybe?
I don't know about the cowboy thing. I know a lot of them wear cowboy hats... but Steve Halfpenny has really helped some of my english dressage friends to progress at our clinics. And if you took his hat off and put him in a baseball cap you might think he wasn't a western rider after all :D

[Susara]

And if you took his hat off and put him in a baseball cap you might think he wasn't a western rider after all :D

As an English rider myself I was expecting to get lots of snotty comments from the Western people at the Cowboy School. One of the reasons why I was impressed with them was that there was no snottiness to be seen anywhere. I attended a Seat Clinic with them, and the morning started with a speech on the Classic Seat, and how that is the basic seat that they teach and work from, and lots of references to the Spanish School. They see themselves as inheriting the Spanish riding tradition as passed on via South America to North America. The way they aproached riding technique is closer to my dressage training than the jumping training I've had before.

In fact this is a topic that has facinated me for a long time, I've had it in the back of my mind to start a topic on it to see others' comments :-)

[Crystal Fire]

Well, I went to a clinic with Philip Nye (ex Parelli man and horsey genius :) ) in Australia, and he showed us dressage videos and discussed the German Training Scale. The work done on the clinic was constantly referenced back to those principles.
Also when I was in Aus I went to the first Silversand trade stand and demo. Yes, it is a tiny organisation! There was a horse show going on at the time. Steve did several demos, finishing with one showing his horse Foxy working with "finesse". So he could have Foxy going round like a cow pony western pleasure type one minute, then pick him up with the tiniest lift of his hands and Foxy rounded out to do all those fancy dressage moves. All without what I know dressage judges would consider to be correct and adequate contact... Steve says that a contact need only be the weight of the rein, and certainly seems to be able to walk the talk on that one.
Anyway, at the end of the demo the people most impressed where the dressage riders. Two ladies came up to me and were saying "Who is he? How do we learn that?" one was so frustrated, she was saying that she'd been trying to do that for years, and how could he manage in such a simple way and with washing line reins. I think good horsemanship can come from any discipline.
I can't remember his name, but Steve has been invited to work with a German international dressage rider for a while next year, to exchange ideas. The rider is very interested in the ways he could see that Steve could help with what he wants to achieve. I'll find out who when I remember sometime.

[LodgeRopes]

Hi all :)

First up, the cheques are in the mail Cathy & kate.......usual rate of 5 quid a mention...lol
(your kind words are appreciated)
CVB's mums 'wip wop' was the pinnacle of our proffesional lives :0)

Skib, 9m lines...give us an email info@lodgeropes.com or cypresslodge@iprimus.com.au and we will work out your requirements and give a fair price if you like. We are always pleased to modify designs or custom make any rope items as long as they are safe for horse and rider.

Australia has produced some really good NH people....
steve Halfpenny, phil Nye, steve brady, ken faulkner, david simons, ross coventry, phil roddey and a lot more. The parelli tidal wave swept up so many people and gave them a start. Many of the big names all started with parelli, others watched and learnt, they were already good horsepeople but the parelli organization showed them all how to market themselves.

Kate summed it up, its the individual trainers ability to communicate that is the important issue, not the style or brand name.

We had a parelli instructor, i should say THE only Parelli instructor in the state do a clinic at our place..... she may have know what she was doing but no one else did!!!!!!! It was the turning point for us, we started looking elsewhere.

Susara, we have shipped a few ropes to SA, give us an email anytime if you would like a quote on ropes, halters, hackamores etc etc

here is our website

http://www.lodgeropes.com

cheers all :0)

[valiant]

I'd like to (again) confirm Kate and Lodge Ropes comments, there are so many good horse(wo)men out there, some are better at marketing themselves than others, but each of us must find the intructor/style/personality etc that suits us individually. Sometimes we must search and hop around before we find the "best" one for where we are at that moment in time.

The Parelli certification is incredibly expensive in SA due to the exchange rate, so that's the main reason we have no endorsed instructors here.

Susara, where in SA are you? I'm in the Western Cape.