Refusing jumps

[DeirdreBarlow]

This is a tricky one :cool: . I know it's a pain, but I'd be very interested in any thoughts you have.

For the past 9 months, we've been loose schooling, lunging and riding our 5 yr old over jumps.

We started work on her a little over 2 years ago and have brought her on very slowly.
She now lunges, loose schools and long lines beautifully. She's an exceptionally quick learner, very bold, and very well mannered. She works in a balanced and responsive outline (very sure footed) and has been backed and ridden round the school (and out on short hacks) daily for over a year and a half now.

A fair while back, we started to incorporate trotting poles into her regime. She took to them brilliantly (has never touched one and wasn't at all bothered by them).
Then we added a tiny cavalletti in place of the end trotting pole (in a sequence of 4) - again she took to the exercise well.
Over a period of 2 months, we removed the poles altogether and replaced them with just one jump (still bringing back the poles and small jumps frequently, but also working on single fences).
Upto 2 feet, she jumps them boldly and enjoys it. But just an inch above that height and she refuses.
We know she's capable of much higher (she's previously been prone to pop over the field fencing :rolleyes: ), but she seems to lose all confidence after a couple of feet.
She's the same under saddle, on the lunge and when loose schooling. We've spent the past 4 months working with her alongside other (more experienced) horses to try and get her to follow them. But she won't. She simply follows, then goes round the fence :p .
So we put up one side of the jump at a 90 degree angle to the wall and another (equally as high) jump at 90 degrees the other side (giving her less chance to run out). But (even with gentle encouragement from a lunge whip and/or her rider - and I do mean gentle - we don't do chasing and threatening!) AND the horse in front popping over it happily, but she just jumps over the (sometimes bigger) side jump.

She doesn't get pannicky about it (she's not that type), and of course these things take time, but 9 months on she's just not getting it lol ;) .
She's very confident about it all - it's not a "oh my god I can't do that!" refusal, it's more of a "nah, I'll just hop over this side instead thanks". And it just isn't in her nature to be disobedient deliberately (in all other areas, you could teach a total beginner to lunge/ride/long-line/loose-school/etc on her - she's so well behaved and responsive).

We keep going back to her gridwork (smaller jumps mixed with poles or/and other small jumps placed varying amounts of strides apart etc), but I just can't fault her in it. I truely can't.
But it is literally barely an inch taller and she refuses! You can give her the increased height with or without poles/ other jumps - it makes no difference how you present it, she won't do it.
We've also tried putting afew small jumps various strides apart so she gets into a rhythm over them (which she does brilliantly usually), then putting the end one or/and a middle one or/and the first/second one up a bit higher than the rest. Sometimes it tricks her (and she hops it :D ), but 99% of the time, she refuses.

Tack, back, teeth and health are all fine (and checked regularly!). Her regular rider is very experienced in dealing with youngsters, and the 4 other riders she's had on her back are also experienced and confident (one was her RI incidently, who rides (and teaches her owner on) her most weeks). All riders have had the same problem with her.
RI suggested leaving the bigger fences for a while (which we did), but she's so confident and happy over the smaller ones that a couple of weeks later even RI said "there's no problem there - I've no idea what's going on!"

(And I say "we" because she's technically my sister's lol ;) )


So, any thoughts people :) ?

[KateWooten]

How is she over spreads ? I'm sending Rosie over wider, rather than taller jumps. She's totally intimdated by taller jumps (over 9 inches is tall for Rosie, don't ask... ) but will now happily canter very fluidly over a spread .. and in doing so jumps way higher than she'd need to for th uprights she feels sha can't do. I will start to introduce a little more height again, but not any time soon !

Just a thought

[DeirdreBarlow]

That's a great idea Kate :) , but thus far it hasn't had any effect :mad: .

She pops spreads with ease (and does so confidently and happily) - as long as they're within her "comfort height" range.
Again, above 2 ft and she refuses.
We thought (as you pointed out) that the additional width would encourage her height, but several months on and it's not worked.

Like I said. . . we know she's more than capable, because she hops over the field fencing if she's in the mood :rolleyes: .
And when a "jump" is placed at 90 degrees to the jump itself (to encourage her not to run out), even if that jump is a good foot taller than the jump you want her over - she'll leap the side jump instead :rolleyes: .

Kate, incidently, are you the lady who's previously talked about ground exercises you do with your horse (to encourage respect and obedience)?

[Lou!]

I'm not sure whether she is refusing when you're trotting her into fences or not, but it is very difficult for any horse to jump out of trot nevermind a youngster. Their legs are all in the wrong place for take off if they get to a fence in trot.
Is she well schooled on the flat, responsive etc? Her canter doesn't have to be brilliant yet, that will come with time. But you can set up a cross pole with a plank or square pole (so she doesn't injure herself if she steps on it) 3 and a half steps (approx 11ft I think), (I'm assuming she's a horse, if she's a pony obviously alter it accordingly) in front of the cross pole. Then you approach in a nice trot and just squeeze as her nose goes over the pole and she should do a nice round canter stride over the pole and pop the cross pole, as she gets more confident you can add a pole at the other side of the cross pole and this will encourage her to bascule properly and improve her technique.
You can then add a second part, I would put it 2 strides away from the cross pole, still using poles to regulate her stride, start with an upright then you can add a back bar and she will gain confidence, and you can test her without worrying about her getting the strides wrong. Training them in this way makes it very difficult for things to go wrong, but you must have a confident rider on her who will just sit and let her sort herself out, let her learn from her own mistakes and if she stops drop the poles on the floor and make her step over it, then go straight round and attempt it again. If you turn her away from the fence she will think it is ok to refuse.

Hope that made some sense to you.

Good luck.
Lou.x

[DeirdreBarlow]

Lou, I don't think I've been clear :) - she canters happily over poles, single jumps, numerous jumps, poles and jumps - any kind of gridwork really ;) .
She's been very capable and comfortable in her jumping (at small heights) for several months now.
And as previously mentioned, her rider (and others who've hopped on her) are all very confident and experienced.

[svenja]

have you tried getting another horse to take the lead over a jump? It may give her the confidence to follow. Perhaps also introduce her to jumping obstacles within her comfort zone but outdoors (the odd tree trunk, small hedge etc...) as that may make her a little bolder. Otherwise can't think of anything you haven't tried already! She probably just needs time...:)

[KateWooten]

Kate, incidently, are you the lady who's previously talked about ground exercises you do with your horse (to encourage respect and obedience)?


Not sure if I'm a lady but yep, that's me, forever banging on and on about groundwork :) Your horse sounds like a really neat challenge. I wonder if she'll just grow out of it ? Maybe it's become a kind of habit with her, it might be time for a full-on change of pace, and take her out of the arena or any schooling for a good 3 months or so, and just get her out hunting, or XC, or just long fast trails through woods ? I just can't see her having the same pedantic attitude if she's really got a job to do, with other horses all in on the game, and if there's obstacles in the way ... maybe she won't think twice ?

[DeirdreBarlow]

svenja wrote: have you tried getting another horse to take the lead over a jump?

Svenja - I wrote the following in my initial post ;) . . .

We've spent the past 4 months working with her alongside other (more experienced) horses to try and get her to follow them. But she won't. She simply follows, then goes round the fence

Kate - a change of pace is on the cards at the moment. So I think you're probably right - see how it works out in a different environment.

Also, not with regard to this horse, but I'd be extremely greatful (and interested) if you'd recommend afew exercises for the following pony. . .

8 yrs old, recently moved to new home (me :) ) after many yrs with same owner and is NOT settling well.
Previous owner sold him as (despite loving him) he was too bolshy for her. His ground manners are almost non-existent and he has a tendency (both under saddle and on the ground) to really test his rider.
I sense he's quite a fearful horse (just in general, he gets in a state and very pannicky over nothing) and this manifests itself in aggression (especially when being ridden). But there's also a definate element of "testing me" mixed in with it.
I've now got him lunging and long-lining nicely (he was a devil when we first tried it) and his ground manners are slowly improving.
I think it's mainly an issue of time and patience (concentrating on positives and avoiding head on confrontation), but I'd love to try some of these exercsies I've seen you mention previously.

Could you be the really lovely person I know you must be :D and advise afew activities please?

[svenja]

ah... should have read the first post more carefully!:) Well, sounds like patience is the only thing left- good luck with her!

[DeirdreBarlow]

Lol :p .
Thanks for the advise though svenja - nice to hear someone else would have tried the same thing anyway :) .

[KateWooten]

hey check this out ... here's a description of my new mare ...

"10 yrs old, recently moved to new home (me ) after many yrs with same owner and is NOT settling well. Previous owner sold her as (despite loving her) she was too bolshy for her. Her ground manners are almost non-existent and she has a tendency (both under saddle and on the ground) to really test her rider.
I sense she's quite a fearful horse (just in general, she gets in a state and very pannicky over nothing) and this manifests itself in aggression (especially when being ridden). But there's also a definate element of "testing me" mixed in with it."

:D :D ... so we're in the same boat .. can we start a joint training journal ? My main problem with my Summer is that I bought her for my Husband to ride, and he's an enthusiatic beginner ... he's so gungu-ho about things that I've let him ride her before she's fully solid under saddle, and she stays as nice as pie until she disagrees with him over where to go, and how fast .. and from there, there's no bringing her back. I know she's been ridden with heavy hands which accounts for her head-slinging and rein yanking .. I also think she's been allowed to wind people up til they lose their temper with her .. I do get this feeling from her that she's thinking, ok you're being nice, and fair now - but I bet in 2 hours you're going to be beating me like all the rest of them ! (and of course, I'm thinking.. you know in 2 hours, I'm hoping you've been back in the field yommelling grass for for an hour and a half already !)

So, anyways, back to the plot. He's pushy on the ground, and testing under saddle - my bet is he doesn't know yet if you're a great leader or not, and in the absence of anyone else for the job, he's out to look after himself. The way round it is two-fold - to show him you are a good leader so he should trust you (everyone who's thought about the idea of 'gaining their respect by moving their feet' gets that part ... ) but also by turning out to BE a good leader consistently, and that's the hard part because that can really only come with time (though of course, you can hasten the process).

DO you have a rope halter ? It's the only one gadget that I buy into. Actually, I don't 'buy' I just bought a piece of rope and tied one .... it's rough but it works. The reason for always using one is that the communication is clear and instant. In a webbing halter, much of his tugging on you on the ground, is very easy for him to bear - he's just leaning into a nice soft halter - no big deal. With the rope halter, just a little bump from you goes directly to his head ... not pain, just a little pressure, and you can make it as gentle as you can ..yet get as tough as you need to be.

First and foremost, I'd get his attention. Take him to a small safe area ( 20m circle sized is the kind of thing, ideally, but tbh, when I did all this with nervy-joe, it was on the front lawn, so no big deal)... Now, all you do is stand. Whilst he faces you, with two eyes, relaxed, but focussed, then all is well. When his attention goes away from you, you bump on the leadrope to get back to the two-eyes thing. If he steps towards you (you want him 4ft or so away) then you wave the leadrope, tap with a stick in front of him .. raise your energy, raise your voice .. direct him back out of your space and use your energy to back it up... and as soon as he's where you want, focussed on you, let everything go, exhale, relax, get 'soft eyes' (gaze at the ground is useful here).

It's an exercise in 'presssure-release' timing for the handler, and in reading the horse's thoughts. the more you play it, the more tuned in you'll be to where his focus is. I only realised the importance of this on Monday. I was riding pushy mare, doing some serpentines at a walk. I've played with her quite a lot on the ground, and this time under saddle, her focus was all over the place. She'd still be doing the exercise, but her mind was flitting elsewhere ... and I knew as soon as she lost focus, just by a little stiffening of her jaw, tipping her ear away towards whatever was taking her attention. I could focus on getting her attention back as soon as I saw the thought, rather than waiting for the 'incorrect behaviour' to start .. like I was telepathic - only I wasn't, I was just outsmarting her .. and it really worked. Reading the horse better - more quickly - allows you to react sooner, rather than harsher, because you are acting before there is any bad behaviour to correct.

Hmmm..... written a book again ... you know I said 'should we start a joint training thread for them ?'... well, I think I just did ! I'd be interested to hear your reactions to just that one simple focus game ... I'd more or less dismissed it as too simple until Summer arrived, and it's really quite an eye-opener to watch her focus go from 'all over the whole world' and then gradually narrow until there is just me and her. It is neat.

Of course, there's all the 'moving their feet' exercises to come ... but be warned, once I start tapping, it's very hard to get me to stop ....:p

Kate

[DeirdreBarlow]

Thanks Kate!
A joint training thread sounds like a great idea :) !

What you said here. . .
"She'd still be doing the exercise, but her mind was flitting elsewhere"[/
really struck a chord with me. He's exactly like that, but CONSTANTLY. It's like he overthinks everything, is never giving me his full attention and sees any amount of persuasion (however non-confrontational) as an excuse to be stroppy and/or aggressive.

she stays as nice as pie until she disagrees with him over where to go, and how fast .. and from there, there's no bringing her back.
This is him :eek: ! This is absolutely him! Like I said - he differs a teensy bit in that he's ALWAYS got his attention on other things (as well as me). But despite not being 100% "with me", he'll do as I ask until he disagrees. Then we get the works (rearing, bronking, spinning, biting - if on the ground etc)!

my bet is he doesn't know yet if you're a great leader or not, and in the absence of anyone else for the job, he's out to look after himself.
That makes complete sense (I honestly believe he'd say that if he could talk!).

Right, tomorrow I will call at the tack shop and buy a rope halter. The try that exercise you suggested. I'll post as soon as I get home!

Big thanks Kate! Looking forward to "working" with you lol :) .

[galadriel]

What kind of jumps are you asking her to jump?

It might help to make the jumps look dramatically different. Some horses are happier jumping things that are very clear about their height; fillers can help a lot. If she's odd about jumping standards and poles, maybe you could try some big logs or other natural looking jumps and see how she reacts.

Have you checked to see if there's a lighting problem that kicks in when the jump hits that height? Moved the jump around the arena to make sure the light is really conducive?

[Herbie's mummy]

I would pop her round a small XC corse.
Once they are in a flow they just naturly go, this makes them soooo much braver:)

[DeirdreBarlow]

Right Julia. . .

Today, I played your suggested exercise 4 times. The first (when I brought him in) for half an hr, the second (early afternoon) for fifteen minutes, the third (late afternoon) for 20 minutes or so, and the fourth (this evening) for almost 40 minutes.
So I give myself 10 points for effort lol :p .
He surprised me actually. He very rarely "challenged" me (ie, only stepped into my space) twice (and quickly stepped out of it again when I asked him to).
He did, however, (as always) only have part of his attention focused on me much of the time. To be honest - whilst he did do as I asked, I don't think his focus was ever really on me.
I did try to gain his attention - little tugs everytime I could see him about to drift. But even if I caught it the second he even considered drifting off in his own thoughts :rolleyes: , he was so constant with it. Like I said, I don't think his thoughts were EVER (even right at the beginning) occupied by me.

I'd really appreciate any critique or suggestions on what I've said :) .

How's your little mare doing?

[KateWooten]

ok, I took little mare out for a long ride out just now. She gave me no trouble at all - I took her much further from home than ever before to try to provoke some nerves. We did get some nerves, some spooking, but I was easily able to get her attention back every time with no problem. We've been doing some schooling from Heather Moffet's Enlightened Equitation, which is noce for me cos it gives me an excuse to ride her in the 2 rein pelham ... and I took her out in that. She's becoming softer on the snaffle rein - but, I suspect, mostly because she knows I have the pelham rein there to directly request softening of the jaw if I need. I think I will put a lot of hours on her, before putting poor DH back - thing is she's no longer being obnoxious with me because I'm reacting more quickly to the first signs ... poor DH doesn't stand a chance while he's still learning.

Ok, critique then ... this Natural Horsemanship thing is just old comomon sense good horsemanship repackaged. Nothing new. Just as in regular old BHS horsemanship, if the horse isn't listening, you do whatever you have to to get him listening. Escalation of the cue it's also called (btw I don't think I 'do' Natural Horsemanship cos I don't know what that is, but I read just about anybody and a lot of the stuff that works is also called 'NH' for what that's worth).

So, the moral of that is .... you already KNOW how to read him very well ! SO, that's a good thing, right ? You could tell his attention wasn't 100%. Right, you've no excuses for not getting 100% attention today :D So, what is it going to take to get his entire focus on you? It might just take an escalation of cue ... so a harder bump on the rope, raise your energy ... personally, I don't mind imagining all 110 lbs of me bumping on the leadrope as hard as I can (provided that's all it is - a soft leadrope on a rope halter - not a bit, or a stick, or anything with leverage) ... or jump up sharply, run at him waving your arms and yelling 'OMG we're all gonna die !' at the top of your voice ... I don't know ... but do something BIG and get his attention. And every time it wanders off again, start with the little bump on the rope ... and escalate as far as you need to get his undivided attention.

Second suggestion : get his attention by moving his feet. I know this really gets little Summer thinking. Stand real slack and not bothered again for 30 seconds, then come alive, look alert, like a predater, focus on his one hip, crouch a little, start creeping towards his hip... raise your stick... if his hip is still there when you get to it, start tapping the air up by it, then tapping his hip - tap, tap tap, with rhythm. You're looking for a sharp step over with that leg, fully crossing over the other ... and you won't take anything less. Raise the leadrope to block his forward motion if you need to. When he steps over, instantly go slack and relaxed and rub his hip with the stick. Stay slack 30 seconds, then come alive again.... start from the softest cue (that's just getting a fixed look and staring at his hip) and escalate the cue as far as you need to again.

This second exercise gets his attention because it has consequences. if he reacts quickly to your change in body language, he gets to rest much sooner, and his hip doesn't get tapped at.

[DeirdreBarlow]

Julia? Why did I call you Julia? Sorry Kate - that's terribly rude of me.

Glad to hear you little mare did well yesterday :) .

Thanks for the exercise critique ;) , will put it into practice this afternoon.

[KateWooten]

No, no Not rude at all ! Have you met Julia ? She's a great person to be mistaken for :D

Good luck for today... I'm out on a trail ride with my (other) little problem mare, so Summer will have the day off.

[vikkit06]

hi
well not to mean this nasty but maybe shes bored and she also knows she can run out and i was taught by alan fazakerley and he always told me if the horse stops its the horses fault and if it refuses its the riders so maybe before she started doing this she new she cud nip round the side when beeing ridden or not.i wouldnt say she was frightened just being ignerant to you so id get on her practise over two crosses then just put it up to the height shes playing up to(no messing about) and just really ride her all the way up to it but dont give her a long run up to the fence its an excuse for her cut it shortish about 6 -10 strides before the fence. she probally only refuses one way so when riding hold the opersite rein to which she refuses and a good boot with the other leg,perhaps try a ground pole aswell.
good luck x

dont hersertate :)

[DeirdreBarlow]

Thanks vikki,
But I'm afraid thats all been tried time and time again :) .
My sister's currently doing more groundwork with her and we're giving her a break from most jumping for the time being. She wasn't bored with the jumping - that much I'm sure of, but we think a bit of time without jumps will give her time to digest what she's learned.
Thanks anyway though :)