Warmbloods

[EventGirl]

Hi - I just wanted to ask a tard question.

What is the Origin of the "warmblood" - the story of how the breed came and how there came to be so many different "brands" of the warmblood.

Why are people so snooty towards Percheron X Thoroughbreds or Draft X Quarterhorses etc, etc, - aren't they a Warmblood as well?

I always thought the warmblood came from the old farmers Drafts and crossed them with other breeds - hence the hot blood mixed with cold - makes the warmblood.

Thanks for any info! Appreciate it

[Lgd]

The WB breeds tend to be based on the lighter draft type horses that were used for carriage driving rather than the heavier types used on the land.

The Dutch stud book (KWPN) still has a separate book for driving horses (tuigpaarden) which are primarily based on the Gelderlander. Some Gelderlanders can be seen in the ridden studbook as well, although they tend to be quite a way back now.

Each studbook has tended to develop a 'type' but most are 'open' books and WBs from other books (and other breeds such as TB, Anglo-Arab, Selle Francais) can be approved.

The biggest difference to a random cross is that all the WB studbooks will only use approved stallions and the youngstock is inspected.

A percheron x TB would actually be more accurately described as a Sport Horse over here - we have Irish Sport Horses which are Irish Draught crossed with TB. There is a UK Sport Horse Register and Welsh Sport Horses (TB x Welsh) are becoming more widely known.

Most of the biggest European studbooks tend not to refer to themselves as WBs but by the studbook name e.g. Hanovarian, Holsteiner, Rheinlander, KWPN, Trakehner. Some do use WB - Swedish, Danish, Finnish, Belgian and Latvian all describe theirs as WB, there is also a British WB society.

Even then it is misleading for a lot of horses.

My little filly is KWPN registered - bred out of a 7/8 TB mare by a KWPN stallion. If you track the stallion's pedigree he has Holsteiner, TB, Selle Francais, Westphalian, Gelderlander, Arab and Trakehner lurking in various places. Belle (the filly) is actually about 65% TB despite being WB by registration - go figure!

So, to sum it up the difference is mainly through the approvals process that aims to keep the quality of the breed in the 'WB' studbooks. 'Sport Horse' registers have not tended to do this in the past, although the Scottish Sport Horse Registry is starting to do so as is Sport Horse GB.

[EventGirl]

Thank you for that explanation - I appreciate you taking the time out to answer my question, very thoughtful of you.

Since you are the only one who responded - maybe you can help me a bit more.

When someone says a Thoroughbred X Percheron or others aren't "Real" warmbloods what would you say to that? I know you said they are considered a Sport Horse - so what makes the difference? Due to the Thoroughbred being in them?

Aren't warmbloods pretty much a draft mixed with other breeds to perfect a specific line? Like oldenburg or dutch etc, etc ? Warmbloods aren't really a specific breed - like Thoroughbreds or Arabians - etc, etc correct? Just as your Filly - she has allot of mixes in her, but she is still a Warmblood. Due to the cold X Hot.

What is a "real" warmblood.

I love the Percheron X Thoroughbred - they are a fabulous sport horse which is becomming quite popular in the Eventing world here.

[EventGirl]

Zeus, my horse - would you consider him a Sport Horse or a Warmblood?

He is American Creme Draft X American Paint Quarterhorse.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v700/Laya01/charlesbirthday036.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v700/Laya01/charlesbirthday031.jpg

Does it really matter?

[Herbie's mummy]

He looks quite cobby to me...so i would not say a SH or WB.
but he is very nice:)

[galadriel]

A warmblood is in fact a type of breed, with specific breeds in the classification. There are Dutch Warmbloods, Oldenburgs, Trakheners (and so on) to name a few. In order to be registered in one of these breeds, a horse has to have certain parentage AND has to pass an inspection for the breed standard.

It's not that they're just a mix of cold & hot blood, although that may well be how they started out. They're also in a controlled gene pool and they must have certain attributes or else they can't be registered.

I have an Irish Draught Sport Horse who is a mix of heavy Irish Draught and lighter TB. She's not a Warmblood, though she does have to pass an inspection and so on. She's an IDSH. There is a difference.

Being a Warmblood suggests that the horse was carefully bred, parents were inspected, horse has good quality ancestry and all parents qualified for the breed standard before producing this one, and then that this one passed the inspection to be registered as well.

[galadriel]

We now have a couple of organizations in the US forming a new Warmblood registry: the American Warmblood Society is one. These groups do not have restricted gene pools. You can have your horse inspected, and if he passes, he can be registered as an American Warmblood. http://www.americanwarmblood.org/

It's still not "my horse is cold & light mixed and so he's a Warmblood"--but if your horse has good conformation and ability, then he may pass the AWS inspections and be registered as a variety of Wamblood.

[Kazzie]

If your horse was a Warmblood it would state it on his breed papers. As the others have said there are very strict criteria to be adhered to.

I have 2 Dutch Warmbloods and would say that Zeus is a much heavier breed than them... I can't guess what he would be though. Sorry.

[GoneBust]

A warmblood is in fact a type of breed, with specific breeds in the classification.

It's not that they're just a mix of cold & hot blood, although that may well be how they started out.

Being a Warmblood suggests that the horse was carefully bred, parents were inspected, horse has good quality ancestry and all parents qualified for the breed standard before producing this one, and then that this one passed the inspection to be registered as well.


Not criticising what Galadriel has said, because i understand that she is basing this on specific warmbloods i.e dutch/danish warmblood

But my horse is definately mixture of something, what, nobody knows!
But on his passport he is down as a warmblood, because he is obviously crossed cold blood x hot blood because he is that kind of build.

So i am just proving that your horse can still be a warmblood with out actually being registered etc. because it is a type, where as a dutch/danish warmblood is a breed.

[Kazzie]

GoneBust, unfortunately a passport is not the same as breed papers. I expect that whoever obtained your horse's passport stated his breeding to be 'warmblood' simply because they didn't know what his bloodllines were. It doesn't make him a Warmblood.

[GoneBust]

I Realise it doesn't make him a warmblood - it is only there like you said because nobody knows his breeding.

He doesn't have breed papers - so he isn't a true warmblood breed

But the point is he is a warmblood type (cold x hot blood) - even though not a warmblood breed.

[Lgd]

'WBs' also do come in very different types.

Peri is 7/8TB although she is graded with a WB (AES) studbook on performance

http://groups.msn.com/upsaddle2/lgd.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=1500

Tavia is 'WB' (AES) and is fairly 'typey' she is performance graded.

http://groups.msn.com/upsaddle2/lgd.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=8447

Belle (Peri's daughter) is KWPN and was reserve champion at the keuring (Studbook Inspection). She was described as 'a good WB type' on her grading report. The photo was taken at her inspection when she was about 11 weeks old. She was inspected for conformation, type and paces.

http://groups.msn.com/upsaddle2/lgd.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=15700

So three very different horses but the underlying theme is the emphasis on performance and inspection. Belle will have to be presented again as a 3yo for entry into the KWPN mare book (she currently has juvenile papers) and for a sport or keur grading she will have to be presented later under saddle.

The stallion grading for KWPN is even more rigorous - they are presented at 3yo and if approved are given a license for a limited number of mares. The offspring and the stallion have to be inspected (plus 70 day ridden test for the stallion) and if considered suitable, the stallion is given another short term approval. This goes on until the stallion is 11yo when he is put forward for lifetime approval. Up to this point his approved status can be revoked. To get an idea of what they can turn down try and find a photo of Carl Hester and his young horse champion Valegro - he was spun from the 3yo stallion inspection as they didn't think he would be big enough (he now stands 16.3hh so was obviously a late maturer)

[galadriel]

But on his passport he is down as a warmblood, because he is obviously crossed cold blood x hot blood because he is that kind of build.

All that means is that someone *said* he was a warmblood. Doesn't mean anything about what he actually IS. Which happens all the time--here in the US, we have all sorts of people claiming to have Irish Sport Horses and Irish Cobs that have no Irish ancestry, for example. I recently heard of someone claiming that her Appendix QH was an Irish Cob!

Someone saying that your horse is [X] breed doesn't make him so. I've had people insist that my pretty pound puppy must be a purebred Australian Shepherd...doesn't make her one.