Thrush in barefoots

[Giveitago]

From the other thread,

Why do barefoots suffer from thrush and can you treat thrush from the inside-much as you would a human version?

[Pink's lady]

I answered in the other thread but:

I don't think barefoot horses get thrush any more than shod horse, I just think it's noticed more. I'd have said almost all of the shod horses I know, who spend any time in a muddy field, have some degree of thrush but it's just not been noticed. A shod horse doesn't use it's frog and it's therefore not that important if they have mild thrush..

Someone with a barefoot horse spends a lot of time messing about with thier feet and is told to look of for thrush.

Also, in a shod horse, the frog is much higher up, off the ground and further away from the wet and muddyness and the frog is much smaller and shirveled up so there's a much smaller surface area for thrush to have a party on.;)

And no, human thrush is different from foot thrush - human thrush is caused by a fungie, horse foot thrush is a bacteria. It can be treated with any good anti-bacteria scrub (i.e hibi-scrub or Dettol), scrubbed daily until it's under control than couple of times a week. Sorting the hoof shape to get rid of pockets (very common to have narrow, deep sulcus in the frog with the bacteria love) and trying to keep them dry helps.

[Giveitago]

ok, got the thrush thing, but, sorry to say but even a shod horse should have plenty of frog on the foot to help the blood flow back to the heart- it's absolutely imperitive for good circulation/health.

[Iron Maiden]

Sad to say the theory isn't always reflected in practice, the other thing is that the dead bits of frog get exfoliated far more effectively with a barefoot horse than a shod one so there is less 'habitat' for the thrush bugs to proliferate in.

I've found that spraying with cider vinegar is very good for treating thrush. It seems to be a bit like mud fever though, we all have our favourite ways of dealing with it based on our own personal experience so I would be open minded about how best to deal with it in any particular circumstance.

[Pink's lady]

No shod horse I've ever seem has a decent sized frog that weight bears like they should. The frog should be carrying half the weight of that foot, which is doesn't in a shod horse - they have to rely on the walls.

And yes, they use the foot as mini heart, pumping the blood, but a shod foot doesn't do that nearly as well as it should. That's why barefoot horses have much warmer feet and the shoes are taken off if there is a leg wound that needs help healing. A shod foot does it slightly (they still contract and expand a little) but nearly as much as they could/should. Thats one of the major benefits of barefeet.

[MelanieD]

From what I've seen of horses that are shod it's amazing how many of them have thrush without their owners noticing, some only mild but have seen some seriously nasty frogs on horses who "don't get thrush" :rolleyes: Owners of barefoot horses OTOH tend to be a little bit obsessed with attacking the smallest amount of thrush with borax/cider vinegar/hibiscrub/milton etc. Rox had far more problems with thrush when shod but I'm more likely to notice and treat the smallest bit of thrush now. It takes less thrush to affect comfort in a barefoot horse as well so it's easier to not notice/ignore it when a horse is shod.

Human thrush and horse foot thrush are very different and there's no handy little tablet for horse thrush, but diet can have a big effect. Partly because healthy fast growing feet are less likely to get serious infections as any surface infected bits are worn off before the thrush gets too much time to eat deeper into the frogs.

Also, in a shod horse, the frog is much higher up, off the ground and further away from the wet and muddyness and the frog is much smaller and shirveled up so there's a much smaller surface area for thrush to have a party on

A typical shoe is not that thick and doesn't really lift the frog off soft surfaces much. In a well shod horse the frog should be quite close to the ground. Looking at hoofprints in our fields there's usually a frog print to go with the shoe print so a shoe isn't keeping the frogs out of the mud. And a shoe usually helps mud/icky stuff stay in the foot, less 'self cleaning' than an unshod foot, so a shoe really doesn't do much to keep the frogs away from nasties. Small contracted frogs are usually more prone to thrush than larger healthy frogs so surface area doesn't really have much of an effect. Small contracted frogs that are nowhere near the ground and have a deep central sulcus are usually the worst for getting thrushy.

[nicolaj]

This is only my observation, but with unshod horses, which I have, the feet tend to come in packed with mud and so always need picking out. So there I am picking out a great heavy foot packed with mud and always pick out round the frog as well so notice any thrush quickly.

Whereas some people with shod hooves don't really pick them out as they don't seem to get packed so packed with mud. Just a quick scrape and don't bother with the frog. So these horses may well have thrush but it isn't noticed as much as not as much attention is paid to the foot/frog.

Well that's my theory!:p

[Yann]

Hmmm, I've always found it harder to pick shod feet than unshod ones :D

I'd suspect unshod feet are less prone to thrush than shod ones as has already been said.

As far as shod frogs go both mine had nice healthy frogs with shoes on, even if some other aspects of their feet left something to be desired :D

[Pink's lady]

I've always felt that an awful lot of people used to shod feet don't do it properly. Brodie is barefoot all around and I've had quite a few people up to see about sharing him a few days a week. They all, without exception, fairy around the frog , gentley scraping and are horrified when they're told to dig properly and get right down into the clefts:rolleyes: "Are I going to hurt them..." says they:rolleyes:

[Jessey]

Yeah but weren't we all told as kids 'scrape the rest of the foot but the frog is sensitive so be gentle with that or you might get kicked' well I was, I gave up on that idea the first time I watched a farrier cutting bits of dead frog away :D
I got my farrier to show me how to trim and tidy up the foot, properly (I had seen it loads but there is nothing like acctually asking what they are doing, how, why etc) and I now give my guys a manicure about every 2 weeks, they get a trim and the dead sole removed and the frog tidied up to try and minimise the pockets for things like thrush :D their thrush is much easier to manage now and clears up much quicker (they are all barefoot).

[becs]

What tool do you use to do that, Jessey? Not a standard hoofpick presumably.

[Jessey]

No a hoof knife like the farrier would use, only a few quid from robinsons and the like, you really have to get a feel for using it but it is good. You do have to be careful though not to take too much off, you can cause all sorts of problems, I just remove what is already dead :D

[becs]

P'raps I'll just stick to watching my farrier do it for now! He seems to scrape at the perfect depth. Thanks for the info.

[MonBeauCheval]

Owners of barefoot horses notice thrush before those with shod horses? So would a barefoot owner notice something out of the norm;cuts, bumps, etc before an owner with a shod horse? My horse was barefoot, but has shoes on now, so does that mean I'm not going to notice thrush as quickly as I would have when he was barefoot?
And if my horse is not using his frog because he's shod, why does he get new frog growth regulary then? If he wasn't getting any blood to his frog, why would it grow?
Only owners of barefoot horses are obsessed with getting rid of/preventing thrush? When my horse had thrush due to lameness and the fact that my horse was not using his hooves properly I would scrub his hooves out everyday and pack crevices with cotton even if I had to come to the barn at 10pm after a 10hr workday. And my horse was shod. So I couldn't possibly been obsessed. Now that my horse is sound he's thrush free and he has contracted heels and deep central sulci (that he's had before I got him) and he's shod. Also, he does get mud in his feet.

[Yann]

I think what gets noticed and how much gets done is down to how scrupulous the individual owner is, not whether it's shod or not. The point is that a barefoot horse is going to be affected more quickly and obviously if the horse gets an infection.

Of course shod feet have circulation, and being shod won't necessarily mean the frogs are shrivelled and useless, but it won't help if they are.

[becs]

And if my horse is not using his frog because he's shod, why does he get new frog growth regulary then? If he wasn't getting any blood to his frog, why would it grow?
I think the theory is that the circulation is IMPROVED by (not wholly dependant on) the direct compression that barefoots get.

[Yann]

It isn't just frog compression, but the expansion of the hoof wall and widening at the heels. It still happens in shoes, but not as much as the nails limit the expansion.

[MonBeauCheval]

Why would a barefoot horse be affected move quickly and obviously if the horse is getting an infection? If a barefoot hoof is healthier, which I believe it is also, then why would it be more prone to infection?
Is proper frog contact never acheived in shoes? I'm trying to improve my horse's feet and this is been an issue I've been wondering about. Ideally, I would have my horse barefoot again, but there's a high chance he will go lame again and that's not a risk I want to take.

[Bay Mare]

MonBeauCheval - most people whose horses are shod tend to hand the care of the hooves over to the farrier. I did it myself. As long as they were still attached and cleaned out daily I didn't think too much about them. Once you discover barefoot you end up learning so much about feet that it's quite scary how little you did know.

I don't think that a barefoot horse is more likely to get thrush BUT you are more likely to pick up on it because they don't have a shoe on to 'protect' them from the discomfort that it can cause.

In the majority of shod horses you will see atrophy of the frog because the shoe raises it up and out of the way. You don't get the same exfoliation or stimulation of the frog that you do in barefoot horses either. Watching the changes in a newly barefoot horse are remarkable.

There is no reason for a barefoot horse to go 'lame' unless there is a problem there to start with. They may be a bit sore and footy to start with but with correct trimming (I use a KC La Pierre EP), correct conditioning which may or may not include walking in pads, correct feed (it can make a heck of a difference) and hoof boots there's no reason that the majority of horses can't go barefoot. You may have to limit your activities for a while but it's worth it in the long run.

There are a variety of reasons why barefoot doesn't work out including the owner not having the time to spend on conditioning etc, the trim, too much work, too soon and not listening to the trimmers' advice!!!

[Yann]

Unless a shod horse only ever works on smooth hard surfaces (and then not always), the frog and sole will be getting stimulation. Both my horses had healthy frogs when shod, and neither of them have suffered with thrush.

[MelanieD]

Roxy's frogs were huge and in contact with the floor when she was shod, they were actually too big, but she did still have thrush problems. It's possible to have decent sized frogs in a shod horse but once they have contracted they aren't likely to recover unless something is done to get pressure to them, like using a packing material with a shoe but that can cause other problems.

I think it's more down to owner obsession than a shoe being attached, it's just that there are far more obsessed barefooters panicing about the smallest little bits of infection which can give the wrong impression than thrush is a big problem in barefoot horses. My experience is that there's far less problems with thrush in barefoot horses, but far more obsessing about it. There are obviously some owners of shod horses who are just as bad with the obsessive hoofpick sniffing but from what I've seen they are a minority.

[MonBeauCheval]

I don't think that most people with shod horses just turn their care over to their farrier. A lot of people in general do so;barefoot or shod.Bay mare- Did you have a problem and then educate yourself and decide barefoot was the best option? If so, barefoot was the result of more knowledge rather than barefoot causing you to become more knowledgable. Correlation does not equal causation.
If the horse is showing discomfort from thrush it should have been noticed before it got bad enough to cause discomfort. There's no reason thrush shouldn't be noticed just as quickly on a shod horse than a barefoot one, unless there are pads involved.
As to my concern about my horse becoming lame if I pull his shoes, he has navicular and is doing awesome right now with the shoes, hence my reluctance. It would be a different story if he wasn't sound though. I agree there's no reason pulling shoes should cause a sound horse to be lame.

[Bay Mare]

I don't think that most people with shod horses just turn their care over to their farrier.

Then you haven't met the people that I've met!

Bay mare- Did you have a problem and then educate yourself and decide barefoot was the best option? If so, barefoot was the result of more knowledge rather than barefoot causing you to become more knowledgable.


Actually, no, we didn't have a problem at all. There was another horse on the yard barefoot and another who went barefoot just before us. Listening in on the trims I realised that although I knew the BHS textbook on feet and I watched the farrier do his stuff I didn't know as much as I really ought to know. The farriers that I've come across don't exactly share their knowledge or even encourage owners to become more knowledgeable. Once I realised that there was a lot that I didn't know I did some research and am still learning about it day in day out.


If the horse is showing discomfort from thrush it should have been noticed before it got bad enough to cause discomfort.

But that was my point, barefoot horses tend to be more aware of the discomfort from infection because they don't have shoes to 'disguise' it to a certain extent. You'd be amazed how many people with shod horses don't notice that their horse has thrush if it's only minor. I probably wouldn't have if I'm honest because I didn't spend half as much time attending to her feet. Now I can smell the stuff at 10 yards even if it is only minor!


As to my concern about my horse becoming lame if I pull his shoes, he has navicular and is doing awesome right now with the shoes, hence my reluctance. It would be a different story if he wasn't sound though. I agree there's no reason pulling shoes should cause a sound horse to be lame.

I wasn't telling you to go barefoot, I was replying to your post. The fact is that there have been great success going barefoot with navicular horses. You have to choose what is best for you and your horse obviously.

[Bay Mare]

Unless a shod horse only ever works on smooth hard surfaces (and then not always), the frog and sole will be getting stimulation. Both my horses had healthy frogs when shod, and neither of them have suffered with thrush.

I can only take your word for it that neither of yours have suffered from thrush. You'd be the exception on the yard then.


I DID NOT say that shod horses don't get frog stimulation, what I actually said was:

You don't get the same exfoliation or stimulation of the frog that you do in barefoot horses either.

Even you would have to agree that a LOT of shod horses have atrophied frogs.

With that I'll bow out gracefully because I will not get into the Yann wind up loop!!!

[MonBeauCheval]

Bay mare- My point was that I agree with you that pulling shoes shouldn't cause a horse to become lame, but I was saying in my horse's case it might because of soundness issues.
Quote:
If the horse is showing discomfort from thrush it should have been noticed before it got bad enough to cause discomfort.

But that was my point, barefoot horses tend to be more aware of the discomfort from infection because they don't have shoes to 'disguise' it to a certain extent. You'd be amazed how many people with shod horses don't notice that their horse has thrush if it's only minor. I probably wouldn't have if I'm honest because I didn't spend half as much time attending to her feet. Now I can smell the stuff at 10 yards even if it is only minor!

Ok, so you were saying that thrush is more noticable in barefeet because there is no shoe to protect the feet from discomfort. My point is if the thrush is bad enough to cause the horse noticable discomfort, it is not being noticed quickly enough.

With regards to your experiences vs my experiences with the degree of owners with shod vs owners with barefoot involement in hoof care, well we can debate all day but neither off us have an actual proof, just case studies. Anyone want to conduct a random survey? ;)

[Yann]

You'd be the exception on the yard then.

Must be.

because I will not get into the Yann wind up loop!!!

You're crediting yourself with far too much importance there.

[Iron Maiden]

Well here's my twopenneth.

Owners of shod horses can be mega-fastidious about their horses' feet too. It wasn't that long ago that I was on a yard where nobody was barefoot, and we had our share of hoofpick sniffers & dedicated foot scrutinisers & scrubbers.

Horses that are shod well can have very good foot structure & decent frogs. Equally, some horses have crap feet & taking away their shoes can't give them new ones. My friend's old horse had congenitally small, upright, boxy feet, you can't do a fat lot about something like that - in fact the farriers did wonders with him under the circumstances.

I'm sure there are people who decide to take ther barefoot route who are no more fastidious with their horse's feet than your average horse owner, they just decide to give it a go - why not? You don't have to be a hoof-anorak to try it out.

Some horses get thrush, some are believed to have thrush when it's natural exfoliation with no infection present (I'm guilty of this anyway), some owners do recognise it & some don't. In my experience it rarely causes enormous problems, & often (but not always) appears to be self-limiting - but that is just my limited experience and I'm interested to hear about experiences that other people have to share.

Bottom line is that unless somebody does a robust, statistically significant study looking at barefoot vs shod, we will never know. So lets all be friends & use this forum to share our collective knowledge & experience in a constructive way.