Did I handle this right?

[pattir7]

Hi all,

My horse has this very occasional habit of wanting to follow another horse while we are working in the arena. Today, we were behind another horse, I asked him to turn away and circle...he refused... I pulled his head the direction I wanted him to go...he still refused... I cracked him with the whip....and he bucked!! Twice. :eek: The wiener. :rolleyes: Then takes off in a canter till he gets behind the other horse...breaks into a trot again... and I used a one-rein stop and planted his butt in the corner. :) (I needed him stopped cause at that point I had lost a stirrup). Then, grabbed my stirrup and immediately put him back to work....at which point he was very compliant and well behaved... but I did make him work a long time....longer than usual. I don't wish to punish him... just to teach him that it is easier to be a 'good boy' than to be 'naughty'.

My trainer was there... she thought I rode it well...and handled it well... as I had got him stopped, she was the one to tell me...now put him back to work.... for a long time...

I really don't know what got into him....he did this only once before... we had a 'discussion' then... about 6 months ago... and nothing since. Maybe he's just seeing if the 'answer' is still the same? Hope I convinced him it is... that that is not acceptable behaviour...

Opinions?? I keep asking myself if I did anything to cause it....other than just working in the arena with another horse... which is something he can/should be able to do while still paying attention to me...

BTW, he is a gelding. The other horse was a gelding too. So, it's not testoserone fueling his 'ambitions'...

Patti

[lor]

Firstly, i am not critizing you in anyway, we all have to do what feels right at the time, and ultimatly you got him doing what you wanted but i would also say that I think you just need to be posative with your aids when he isnt being compliant, sort of ride each aid stronger, rather than just telling him off. I personally dont agree with just wacking horses on the bum because they have just (past tense) been naughty. Horses dont really reason, so even though you know why you are hitting him, he doesnt. I would have been inclind to tap him on the shoulder, using it as an aid to ride the direction you wanted to go, rather than the one he wanted to go. Then, when he is softer and more submissive, compliant, you ride him softer so he understands the clear message between doing what you want being nice for him and being nappy, or wooden and unhelpful is not so nice, ultimatly you will end up with him wanting to do what you want coz its nicer for him!! I dont think working him extra long will do any good or harm, he will not realize that you are working him more coz he had been difficult earlier.
Hope that makes sense:D All the above is just my opinion and i hope it helps you and your horse :o

[pattir7]

Thanks lor... I do appreciate your candidness...

Let me just say though that before I even pulled on his head, I had applied every aid as strong as I am capable. He was completely OFF all aids... as far as he thought, I wasn't even there. Perhaps stronger aids would have worked (i.e. another rider), but I had applied all aids as strong as *I* could...which escalated to trying to neck rein him (pull his head the direction I wanted)...which also went ignored.... which then escalated to a smack with the whip to get his attention back....which I *did* get when he bucked... at least he knew I was still there. I don't know how to explain his behaviour other than to say he was like a small child being told he couldn't go out and play...and very beligerant about it. The whole thing is *very* unlike him... he is normally responsive to light aids... and when we are riding with other horses and I sense him going off the aids, a couple of half halts and he comes back to me. As I say, I tried everything I knew and nothing worked... but I am still willing to accept that the whole thing could have been avoided if I had done something different....

[Roheryn]

I think your horse and my horse have been e-mailing each other! :eek:
Seriously, though, I think you handled the situation quite appropriately. It can be scary when it seems they think we're "not there" and if he's ignoring your aids you do need to get his attention. IMO, the fact that he bucked when you popped him confirms the idea that he was already resenting your other aids. I thought my guy was gonna buck the other day when I popped him (very lightly, just on the shoulder) when he didn't respond to my other aids.
I guess horses have the right to not want to be ridden on a given day at a given time, but when they are being ridden I wish they'd behave!
And I don't think that working him longer is a bad idea at all; I think they know that good behavior earns them the reward of being untacked and turned out or turned into their stall for a break and that bad behavior gets them more work 'til they get it right! (Not advocating riding them to exhaustion, you understand ...) But they know what schooling is about.

[Kate F.]

Coming at it from the horse's point of view, I think you should consider WHY he wants to follow the other horse. The other horse represents a herd and security, and if he is reluctant to leave the other horse, he's feeling insecure. If you hit him for feeling insecure, he's just going to feel even more insecure - which he did, and showed it by bucking (from his point of view to get rid of the "predator" attacking him from above - ie you) and bolting off back to the other horse.

The one rein stop was what turned the situation round - that is when you present yourself as the "security" and turn off the engine, so to speak. If you had gone for the one rein stop instead of the stick, you wouldn't have have the buck and bolt, but would have had the same end result that he relaxed and got his confidence back - or as you put it, was compliant.

Working him for longer than usual, in my opinion, was neither here nor there. A horse's association span from one event to the next is only a few seconds, so he will not have associated how long you rode him with anything that had happened before. Similarly, a horse doesn't really have any concept of "work". Work is a human concept - a horse only knows comfort and discomfort. If we say we make a horse "work", we assume that what we are asking them to do is something they find undesirable and don't want to do. If that is the case, shouldn't we be trying to motivate them, rather than intimidate them? But that's another story....:D

In short - if it happens again, I'd say go for the one rein stop first and avoid the fight/flight bit and go straight to the relaxed, willing horse bit! Then make sure you reward him generously for relaxing and coming back to you mentally, and he'll be less likely to feel insecure next time. :D

[pattir7]

Hmmm... yes I realize he did that out of insecurity. However, I was asking him to turn away... at that point, it was a battle for the driver's seat and I couldn't just let him go wherever he wanted...what would that teach him? The one other time he did it, I did go directly to the one rein stop... he bucked then too. I didn't even have a stick. And right aftterwards, he tried it again (following the other horse)... One rein stop again... no buck...but not a happy horse. After that he didn't try it again... until now...some 6 months later. I would have gone directly to the one rein stop if I had a corner to put him in...but I didn't at the time... and as the other poster mentioned, he was already mad about my other aids... my seat, my leg, my hands... he was trotting forward with his head and neck completely sideways... but I could *not* get him to bend.

I really think the key to this whole episode is being more in tune with him to realize if/when he is about to ignore me (an ounce of prevention....)...and get his attention back BEFORE he puts himself in the driver's seat... I think that was my biggest mistake...by the time I sensed he was off the aids, it was too late... and he resented everything from that point forward. Bad mom!

I do want to add, however, that once that was over... he went back to being his perfect little self... and I did reward him for 'getting it right'. We did end on a good note. I never want to get off him when either of us are angry...

Patti

[KateWooten]

Personally, and I could be wrong, ... I think you handled it perfectly. The horse's attention was elsewhere, and you got it back safely, quickly and effectively. Great Job.

As regards everything else, whether you should have worked him so hard, whether you shoud tap him to get his attention - well, you do exactly what you ned to, to get his attention back safely ... And then later, you can look back and can think out ok, could I have done anything better (which is what you are doing, obviously !) ... but to me, there's more value in taking the long term view over this point. You know he has it in him to buck, to test you over your leadership ... and every time, you give him the correct answers - as proven by the fact that it's been six months since he bothered testing you out ! If you were giving him the wrong answers (too weak), things would escalate rapidly out of control, and if you were giving far too harsh a 'correction' you'd likely be having to deal with all sorts of other 'behaviours' or 'naughtiness' popping up all over the place as the poor horse tried to tell you things weren't right.

So, in my book, as far as we can tell, you dealt with the incident perfectly, and should just keep an interested eye out for how he is, and how your relationship is, over the next few weeks.

[pattir7]

Personally, and I could be wrong, ... I think you handled it perfectly. The horse's attention was elsewhere, and you got it back safely, quickly and effectively. Great Job.

As regards everything else, whether you should have worked him so hard, whether you shoud tap him to get his attention - well, you do exactly what you ned to, to get his attention back safely ... And then later, you can look back and can think out ok, could I have done anything better (which is what you are doing, obviously !) ... but to me, there's more value in taking the long term view over this point. You know he has it in him to buck, to test you over your leadership ... and every time, you give him the correct answers - as proven by the fact that it's been six months since he bothered testing you out ! If you were giving him the wrong answers (too weak), things would escalate rapidly out of control, and if you were giving far too harsh a 'correction' you'd likely be having to deal with all sorts of other 'behaviours' or 'naughtiness' popping up all over the place as the poor horse tried to tell you things weren't right.

So, in my book, as far as we can tell, you dealt with the incident perfectly, and should just keep an interested eye out for how he is, and how your relationship is, over the next few weeks.

Well thank you Kate (hope that is your name). I always try to look back upon any 'event' and wonder what I could have done better. Just trying to learn... I obviously do not want to battle with him... it is a battle I will surely lose... I'd much rather have a happy, willing horse...that does things for me cause he wants to...not because he has to. But I do realize that you can either lead....or be led. At that moment in time, I was being led... I needed to do something to become the leader again. He does not exhibit any other behaviours...ever... either on the ground or in the saddle.

I may not have handled this incident perfectly... but I did defuse the situation fairly quickly... and he did go back to his happy self immediately following. I don't hold a grudge... I was not angry at that point... (well, I was when he bucked!)... I was happy he did stop... did come back to me... and we went on our merry way.

He really is a good boy 99.9% of the time... My biggest take away from this is to be more in tune with him. I knew he was off the aids when I asked him to circle away... I should have asked for his attention before I completely lost it.

[KateWooten]

Learning to act sooner rather than harsher is such a wonderful thing - I think you should be grateful to him for giving you the opportunity to think that out :D (rethink, rather, I'm sure you've thought it through a bunch of times before).

It always suprises me when I see 'problem' horses being ridden by really good trainers ... the horse rarely exhibits the dreadful behaviour that the owners suffer - I think the real good horsemen are so in tune with the horse, that they're reacting before most of us mere mortals have even registered there's a problem. Then the trainer deals with it and .. as if by magic ... there's no problem !

It's a good goal to have. I'm working on it with my pushy mare. She's quite a nightmare for her beginner rider ... but I rarely see it. He just fails the little tests she gives him, and before he realises it, her big pony butt is wedged into the driving seat and is not getting out of it any time soon. Bless her heart.

[jenren!!]

I think in the cases of extreme napping smacking is often needed, but of course you have to work out first of all whether they are just napping out of naughtiness or insecurity.

[Kate F.]

;)
I really think the key to this whole episode is being more in tune with him to realize if/when he is about to ignore me (an ounce of prevention....)...and get his attention back BEFORE he puts himself in the driver's seat... I think that was my biggest mistake...by the time I sensed he was off the aids, it was too late... and he resented everything from that point forward. Bad mom!
Patti

That's what I meant, Patti - catch him with the one-rein-stop (or whatever you need - but the one-rein-stop is usually the most effective) immediately his attention wanders and re-focus him on you. You shouldn't need a corner for a one rein stop - you can do it anywhere as long as there isn't someone directly behind you. If there is, just give them a signal to circle away to give you space.

Another tip would be to practise and practise the one rein stop anywhere and everywhere at times when you don't need it. Then the times you do need it get rarer and rarer - and it takes less and less to refocus the horse. With enough practise, the one rein stop becomes a half-halt - and that is then all you need to bring his attention back to you. But you're absolutely right - timing is the key!! ;)

Not "bad mom" at all - smart mom - she's thinking like a horse, and trying to get her response, which worked this time, even better and more understanding next time - which the best any of us can do!! :)