Swollen Ankles after a week off

[VickiGG]

hi everyone
Just got back from three days at a conference and went to see my boy today and his back lower legs were swollen to twice the size. I wrapped them on polarwrap (great stuff - made in the UK too!) and then walked him in the arena for 20 minutes. Left the bandages on for another hour while I groomed him. I removed them and they had gone down a little - but not completely.

He looked pretty funny with one pink bandage and one red one (being a palomino!) :)

I check with YO and he had the same feed as he always does, same supplements (I made them up ahead of time in containers), and wasn't in a new paddock.

Any ideas?

Oh - there were no marks on his legs anywhere - he is in a paddock on his own, and there was heat in the swelling.:confused:

[NoviceNic]

Something fishy going on there!!!! What can the reason be???:confused:

[Whatanejit]

http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f270/Whatanejit/Smilies/confused3.gif

Oh, dunno - hope he is ok soon. I'm sure someone here will have an idea.

Have you called the vet?

[VickiGG]

I'll see how he is today....he had a week off with no exercise plus his feet need trimming, and I noticed he had put on a little weight while I was away - found something on the net saying lack of exercise can do similar things to legs as standing around in stables, ie pool the blood.... so I will see how he is today before calling the vet. It's pouring with rain and I will really need to ride him today if he is not lame (he wasn't yesterday)....

[Imp]

I think your on the money with the standing around theory.... enough to make anyones legs puff up and horses are no different :D

[VickiGG]

well the following day his legs were more swollen - front legs too - and his glands. Vet came and took blood and gave him an anti-inflammatory injection. He had ademas on his underside of his belly - all up his neck and under the jaw (swelling) - in fact he looked puffy all over.

Vet called back today (btw his swelling is much improved today), and said he has anemia - I didn't speak with the vet - he left a message - he wanted to know if he had some blood loss...but he hasn't.

I am thinking it might be tapeworm too Dee...

[Whatanejit]

http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f270/Whatanejit/Smilies/BGW5.gif

Oh My! Poor boy. Did the vet actually give you the level of his Hb?

Ask for it the next time he phones.

Sounds like your boy could do with a full physical checkover too, bless him.

That must have been scarey seeing his whole body puff up like that, bless him.

Keep us posted on the progress.

[VickiGG]

I will ask that yes, thanks - and also the PVC levels.... I guess if it was such a sever reaction to the grass he may have decreased red blood cells from the reaction - who knows. We don't have EIA here in NZ thank goodness - that causes swelling of the legs and under belly (yikes)... don't think I'll read much more on the net - too scary...I'll wait till tomorrow when I talk with the vet.

Here was me thinking he was getting better :o

Took him for a nice walk down the drive tonight (in hand).

He doesn't have a dull coat or anything like that though - very odd. He does sleep alot though! Didn't think that was a bad thing though....

He had blood taken in Feb when he got all spooky (was the beginning of grass staggers) - tell you what - you guys should be pleased you don't have the grass we have here - it's full of mycotoxins. :eek:

[Whatanejit]

MMMmmm. There should be a warning sometimes that ............


Googling can be bad for your mental health!

http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f270/Whatanejit/Smilies/fingersx.gifFingers crossed it'll be just like Cooper's problems that should be fixed with a few tonics.

[BeachRiding]

Ooh, hope he gets better.

[VickiGG]

I should have done a Dee and taken photos - so it could help others in the future if they have the same problem - but forgot! :confused:

Looking forward to tomorrow...can't really concentrate on work - think I'll go watch Coro St - have three episodes to catch up on!

[VickiGG]

had a terrible day today. Spoke to the vet at 9.30am and he said his haemaglobin levels and PVC were so low he had to report it to MAF (ministry of agriculture and fisheries) because there was a risk it could be EIA and that it's a notifiable disease. He needed to take more blood and I had to meet him there at 10am.

Poor Garbo looked very tired today (first day he has actually looked unwell in himself). He took more blood much to Garbos disgust and said he hoped they were over-reacting. I asked what else could cause anemia and the only thing he could come up with was bone disease/cancer. I cried while I was telling my YO.

Then on the way home I called into my usual vet - he actually bred Garbo - and he is very down to earth - he had Tuesday off hence me calling another vet. I showed him the blood results and he said it was mild anemia and most likely from not enough iron in the soil and that I shouldn't worry. I cried again. He said the chances of Garbo having some rare disease which this vet and the MAF scientist seem adamant on finding is like the chances of me winning lotto last weekend. He made me feel alot better.

He gave me some iron supplement to give him and told me to feed lots of lucerne hay/chaff.

I felt alot better after that.

Gave Garbo two lots of the iron supplement over the course of the day, so hoping he will start to feel better soon. MAF blood results not due till after the weekend. All the silly vet seemed concerned about was telling me I wouldn't have to pay for the tests that MAF do (wippdydoo):mad:

Then I got home and my cat was peeing blood do had to take him to the cat vet. She gave him some medicated biccies to eat to help clear the crystals build up....

Then when I was at the farm I noticed my car has a ding in it! :eek:

[Ruskii]

Oh dear it's not your day is it ?! Or in fact your week !

At least your normal vet has given you some hopeful facts. Your other vet (the one who alerted MAF) seems a bit silly to tell you that you dont have to pay for the blood tests, surely that would be the last thing on a horse owners mind when they have just been told their horse may have cancer !?

I hope the test results come back negative and everything gets sorted soon for you.

xxx

[teabiscuit]

hugs to you and cat and horse.

:( sorry you're having such a bad time

[Whatanejit]

http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f270/Whatanejit/Smilies/alright.gif

Oh Vicki how awful for you and poor old Garbo.

Good grief, what a shock for you. That other vet needs a good slap for being so dramatic.

I was reading about EIA only last week in a horsey mag - once again a bit scarey and I don't think I finished the article.
Surely, as your other vet says, it is unlikely that Garbo has contracted that.

http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f270/Whatanejit/Smilies/smiliegrouphug.gif

Hugs to you and Garbo. It is going to be a long weekend for you, you poor thing.

Keep us all updated.

[capalldubh]

What a bad day! Poor you and poor Garbo...

Wouldn't it be nice if vets were all helpful, considerate and all said the same things? But I suppose doctors haven't quite got that one cracked, so vets will be a few decades behind. Your usual vet sounds excellent, though.

Fingers crossed you have a better weekend and that Garbo perks up a bit.

The symptoms btw sound very like what happened to the horse of a friend of a friend - swollen legs, chest and belly lumpy. After lots of investigation, it turned out to be something like an insect bite gone bad... And if I remember the story right, there were also two vets saying completely different things.

[VickiGG]

thanks everyone...
The swelling is all but gone now after the anti-inflammatory injection and my normal vet says I can even ride him....

It is going to be a long weekend for more than one reason - Monday is a public holiday!

I'll go and see him again this afternoon and see how he is after all his tonics yesterday and will post later...

Dee - that first little smiley is sooooo cute!

[NoviceNic]

I hope he picks up soon Vicki. Poor Garbo he just needs a few days off and loads of cuddles. :)

[VickiGG]

Hi everyone....sorry I have not posted for so long....it's been a week now since I started Garbo on the iron tonic and he has been spied galloping at full speed round his paddock on two occasions in the last 48 hours - I witnessed sharp turns, sliding stops, little bucks and rears (you know how they do that excited yipee jump up with the front end but with head down looking pretty then as they hit the ground up go the back legs!) when I was bring his food in to his paddock two nights ago.... :eek: so he can't be feeling as bad as the silly vet seems to think he should be feeling!

Vet called today and said one of two MAF tests had come back - negative of course - that was for EVA. Now waiting on EIA - but I know in my heart (and head) it will be negative.

This vet then proceeded to tell me he needed more blood to test for iron levels (after me telling him yesterday I wanted to know the iron, copper, B12, selenium levels) - but I simply told him that if he took any more blood then Garbo would be anemic! :p

I have ridden him 4 times since Saturday and he's the same old Garbo to me...no more or less tired than ever he was...he's not lethargic that I can tell....(unless of course he has been the whole 18 months I have had him and I hadn't noticed!!) :D

So - what OH and I have decided is that I will make a list of all the supplements and mineral content of of feed he gets - add up all the values, take that to my usual vet (not this twit) and see what he thinks about if I could be over or under dosing him up on anything....

What do you think?

The vet sent the 2nd lot of blood off and the patholigist came back with this comment which makes no sense to me - does it make any sense to anyone else?

the Ht has improved and is now within the lower level refs; but whether this is a reflection of regneration or splenic contraction, is unsure - how is the patient clinically? There is a mild neutropenia now - causes include increased use beyond the rate of bone marrow production, decreased production of neutrophills by the bone marrow, immune-mediated processes that suppress marrow granulopoiesis or destroy circulating neutrophills. Interpret in the light of pertinent history

:confused:

[Whatanejit]

Havn't got a clue vicki but I hope you find out soon.http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f270/Whatanejit/Smilies/fingersx.gif

[VickiGG]

thanks Dee - have you noticed much difference in Cooper since the worming and B12 injection?

[Whatanejit]

No difference at all really.

Still the same soppy Cooper.


http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f270/Whatanejit/Smilies/Horse%20smilies/2anpaint2.gif

He is still having fun in the field. But then again I havn't ridden him.

I think if we see any difference it will be there.

He hasn't become bolshy or over confident in the box or anything.

We'll soon see if he has picked up pace when we hack him out next week.

[VickiGG]

funny how the vets find all sorts of problems when there are not that many sypmtoms.... :rolleyes:

Let me know how you go - and the test results....

[VickiGG]

oh - thought I would post some photos from this week....

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c188/VickiGG/GarboOct222006003.jpg

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c188/VickiGG/GarboOct222006004.jpg

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c188/VickiGG/GarboOct222006001.jpg

[teabiscuit]

no idea what that lot meant.
chuffed to bits that your horsey is feeling better :D

[VickiGG]

after some more research on the net I found a great site which tells you how to analyse your blood results for your horse....

It said;

Haemoglobin: Most laboratories measure haemoglobin the same way and the range for optimum oxygen capacity is 14.5 - 15.5 gm/100 ml of blood. Levels below 12.5 and above 16.0 will affect performance. The lower reading indicates an anaemic state and the higher reading can indicate dehydration. Garbos was 10.2 and 11.2 (two days apart)

The only thing that causes haemoglobin to rise is work. All that additives do is provide the raw materials to make haemoglobin, no work means no rise in haemoglobin. Horses in the paddock do perfectly well on 10.5 - 12.5 and when they return to the stables, these are normal readings. (Garbo has just had a week off before he got the swelling). The aim of training is to stress the system so the bone marrow makes more haemoglobin for the workload, thus, a gradual increasing workload is best.

Packed Cell Volume: This is mostly the percentage of cells within the blood. The red cells have the larger percentage as there are usually 6-8 million/ml as against white cells of 6-8 thousand/ml. PCV is used to assess dehydration and anaemia. Optimum levels are close to 40% with levels below 35% and above 45% likely to indicate problems. This reading is also affected by excitement at collection. PCV also rises as fitness increases, often though, it keeps rising when problems occur because dehydration is a common sequel of work-related problems. Garbos was 27% and 30%


Mean Corpuscular Haemoglobin Concentration: MCHC is a measure of the amount of haemoglobin in each red blood cell. Usually this is in a tight range of 35- 39%. It cannot be above 40% so any reading with a figure greater than 40% is wrong. Variations in MCHC usually reflect problems in the other readings as most labs calculate MCHC by dividing the haemoglobin by PCV and multiplying by 100. Garbos was 37%


Mean Corpuscular Volume: MCV is the size of the red blood cell and is important in two fields. One relates to anaemia cause diagnosis. If the figure is high the horse has anaemia, the cause is usually blood loss (ulcers, bleeder), Vitamin B6, B12, Folic Acid or niacin deficiencies or gut upsets causing reduced production of these vitamins. If the figure is low with anaemia, this usually indicates iron deficiency but also copper or pyridoxine.
Garbos was 51 (high) - so 'gut upset' makes perfect sense with the swelling - ie a reaction to something toxic. It also means he can't be low on iron or copper!

The site is brilliant if anyone is interested http://home.att.net/~horsenutrition101/redcells.html

So I gave him some B12 and B6 tonight!

[Whatanejit]

Phew! Excellent info - I'll have to puruse that site!

His results really were not that skewed were they?

Will you be seeing the other vet this week?

[VickiGG]

Hi Dee - according to that site - no considering he wasn't in work - they were on the borderline normal - well in the low range for PCV but in the normal range two days later (our vet's normal range) - they were taking the reference from the RBC and that site says; Total Red Cell Count: This is rarely used except as a crosscheck on calculations of PCV, MCHC and MCV.

The MCV and MCH were high but this site makes total sense of it all. Who needs a vet hey! :)

I think I'll leave him for a month and maybe get new bloods then with my normal vet - mainly because he is not showing any 'symptoms' - I will keep an eye on him and all is normal I'll just carry on I think...maybe get it checked but if the anemia was from a gut upset (from something toxic - most probably grass mycotoxins), making the B12, B6 production lesson - causing anemia - it all just makes sense.

[VickiGG]

Update - 6th Nov

Oct 15th was the day I noticed Garbos swollen legs.....now three weeks later we are still no wiser.

While his leg swelling has disappeared, he is very touchy and sensitive around the girth, tummy, flank area, and looks bloated in those areas. In fact it's getting worse. Today I couldn't ride him - every time I used my legs (even lightly) he would put his ears right back.

Then - to add to the confusion over his diagnosis - he has a concave area between his two front legs the size of a 50p in diameter.

and..... last couple of days I have noticed a limp spasmodically in trot (not in walk)....but like every 6 beats not 4?? :eek:

So - after spending $450 of the last lot of vets to come up with nothing - I have called another for tomorrow.

I even tried talking the saddle off and riding bareback to see if it was the girth annoying him.... first time on Garbo!! :D

So - we stabled him tonight to get him off the grass in case it's a grass allergy. I have ridden him every day since last Tuesday and he is no less bloated/fat looking.

[Whatanejit]

Sorry to hear this Vicki.

Poor old Garbo and poor you - it is such a blooming worry.

I really hate to say this but possibly you shouldn't ride him for a bit now as he is still swollen - he must be quite uncomfortable with it.

As you know we gave Coops the first month as complete pasture rest. This month, despite not being ridden, we are long lining him and walking him out in hand to help maintain some sort of muscle tone and a top line in preparation for carrying a rider in a few weeks.

Definately get the vet asap.

We got our first bill from the vet on Saturday - £466.00! Yes! http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f270/Whatanejit/Smilies/eek4.gifThat is pounds!

We will only get about £150 of it, or so, on insurance.

[VickiGG]

yikes - that's triple my bill!!! :eek:

Yes, I won't ride until the girthyness stops now I think....

Vet booked for 5pm tonight.... :rolleyes:

[VickiGG]

Well - 2nd vet much more laid back than first - ie no mention of cancer or other scary things. Seems to think he just needs more work and less grass.

Piccy taken two days ago shows how bloated he is...
http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c188/VickiGG/IMG_0001-1.jpg

We have started stabling him at night because the grass is just so lush - and he is in a Jenny Craig paddock now. He seems to be allergic to the grass - ie he is toxic - smelly runny poos and lots of weeing. :rolleyes:

Here he is in the stable on the first night - looking quite at home! :)
http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c188/VickiGG/IMG_0005-2.jpg
http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c188/VickiGG/IMG_0006-1.jpg
http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c188/VickiGG/IMG_0007-2.jpg

The inside of the stable all ready - he has not yet learnt to eat hay at night very well yet so he thinks he's being starved. YO says they can take a week to get the hang of it.
http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c188/VickiGG/IMG_0003-1-1.jpg

New vet (horse specialist) made me canter him round the arena about 20 times before he took the blood. He reckons that's the only time you should take blood otherwise the red cells (up to a third of them) are stored in the spleen. I was knackered by the end of it!

Next day he was not too impressed about the Jenny Craig paddock....
http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c188/VickiGG/IMG_0008-1.jpg

Vet called today and said Haemaglobin back to 15.6 (yay). (normal).

MAF called my old vet and said he was (-) for EIA and EVA but they want more blood because sometimes the antibodies take a while to appear (for gawd sakes). New vet said he will send the blood he took yesterday.

I also have him on toxin binders for the grass mycotoxins and on a de-tox herbal mixture twice a day. So with all of that - he should start looking mean and lean soon!

[Whatanejit]

What a run around Vicki!

Thank goodness for a sensible vet at last.

My goodness he really does look bloated in the first one, the poor boy.

All that with a grass/toxin allergy.

Poor man.

Fingers crossed he will settle with the hay and stable soon.


Brilliant that you have got to the bottom of it now!

You must be so relieved!