Arab breeding

[coss]

I can't believe how complicated arab breeding is!!! I was told by dawn's previous owner that she was pure bred crabbet arab but when you look at her it can sometimes be difficult to see the arab. My RI didn't think she was a purebred but i have found her family tree (goes back 8 generations) and didn't realise there are some many arab sites out there where the horses shown have their family tree online so you can see where they've come from.

Dawn is related to the beauty of a horse on the following website (can't hotlink its image) http://crabbet.hopwoodco.com/
I just found out but its quite confusing as both horses are related in their fifth generation but dawn was born in 1977 and Marky (horse above) was born in 1993 - bit of a difference :confused:

[ambatt]

So what is your mare's pedigree? There are some fantastic old Crabbet lines in Oz. Some Crabbet strains - usually the Sharima line can be plainer in the head and quite chunky. However, when they move you should see the wonderful Arabian way of going, flagged tail and the head starts to look more Araby.

[coss]

Not sure what strain, will look it up when home as thats where her papers are. she was regstered so long ago that her certificate was invalid when i went for a transfer of ownership. she is registered with the arab horse society and i think she was bred near the borders but can't remember off hand. i am her 7th owner so remembering where she was actually born i can't do.

Here's some pics of dawn, as you say, she has a plainer head and is slightly more chunky.

http://file012.bebo.com/6/large/2006/07/14/09/1359860817a1360096100b100723287l.jpg
http://file012.bebo.com/4/large/2006/07/16/22/1359860817a1382791165b241596464l.jpg
http://file012.bebo.com/4/large/2006/07/16/22/1359860817a1382791611b348602290l.jpg
http://file015.bebo.com/12/large/2006/07/23/22/1359860817a1446937461b861517120l.jpg
http://file015.bebo.com/11/large/2006/07/23/22/1359860817a1446945778b519866225l.jpghttp://file014.bebo.com/4/large/2006/08/05/20/1359860817a1596159938b827384768l.jpg

apologies if this slows server down :o

Saw a website for family trees floating about, here is dawn's family tree
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/dancing+dawn2

[ambatt]

If she has AHS papers they do not expire or become invalid. The same papers stay with the horse throught the changes of ownership, going back to the AHS for amendment and the new owner added on. Duplicate papers can be obtained, and all Arab breeding stock were blood-typed before the advent of DNA testing.

So is your mare Dancing Dawn?? Heck! She is looking good for her age if she is - but I know that line very well and she would not be typical of that breeding at all, except for the chestnut colouring. Kami was a lovely old stallion with an exquisite head. She is also not particularly related to the stallion 'Marky' in your first post except way back to the original Crabbet foundation stock. His are very different Crabbet lines to Dancing Dawn foaled 1977.
She does look very part-bred to me, she appears to have feathers in the last photo - i will just check my pedigree books for you, I can probably find her breeder.

[mad mare1]

I have her pedigree..she is Pure bred! 100% pure crabbet....and she has bred 2 foals. She is by ALLAL AHSB 6120 Foaled in 1973 his breeding is DADIA x DANCING DREAM.. which carries a line to INDIAN KING...he has 20 other progeny on the planet...last one born in 1992, according to my records, and her mother is SALIMA DAWN AHSB 5425 Foaled in 1971 and her breeding is KAMIERVANA x REXALLA, which carries a line to LUDO. SALIMA DAWN had 11 other foals, besides DANCING DAWN, and her last foa was registered in 1989.

DANCING DAWN's registration number is AHSB 9456, and the two foals she has bred are DARLENE AHSB 14086 1982 Chestnut mare, by AMBOSELI, and SILVER RAKUS AHSB 16521 1985 Grey stallion, by SILVER CHASTINDI

hope this helps to clarify the situation...let me know if you want anything else.

[coss]

WOW!!! i am so impressed! if its not too much trouble, info on her foals (they'll be fully grown now) that would be great. her previous own informed me she has had 3 foals so what happened to th last one? How do you know all this info? it is quite disturbing as well as being impresive.

As for the AHS papers, i have no idea what happened there. i think its to do with the fact that they changed the certificate's appearence and also because there wasn't any room on the front of the certificate so they gave me a new one. i also got the old one back with invalid, i suppose so that she didn't have two certificates.

[coss]

If she has AHS papers they do not expire or become invalid. The same papers stay with the horse throught the changes of ownership, going back to the AHS for amendment and the new owner added on. Duplicate papers can be obtained, and all Arab breeding stock were blood-typed before the advent of DNA testing.

So is your mare Dancing Dawn?? Heck! She is looking good for her age if she is - but I know that line very well and she would not be typical of that breeding at all, except for the chestnut colouring. Kami was a lovely old stallion with an exquisite head. She is also not particularly related to the stallion 'Marky' in your first post except way back to the original Crabbet foundation stock. His are very different Crabbet lines to Dancing Dawn foaled 1977.
She does look very part-bred to me, she appears to have feathers in the last photo - i will just check my pedigree books for you, I can probably find her breeder.

I always find the fact she has socks a little strange too but i think they have got longer with age. i am still in shock about all of this :o

[mad mare1]

AHHH I was given a program for my computer by a friend...and it contains every single pure bred arabian horse's pedigree, in the world, for those arabs foaled before early 1998...so maybe the last one was part bred, or foaled after feb/march 1998...as that is the cutoff point for my databse, any other info you want? If anyone else wishes me to trace their horses pedigree, please PM me, or put an FAO up somewhere...I'll find it!

[coss]

so does this computer program have pics or just dates and breeding? i am so intrigued! i think the third foal would have been before 1998 as i'm sure i owned her late 1997 or early '98. :o can't remember as it was a part loan type arrangement and when the passport law came into place i became the full owner - complicated :rolleyes: suppose it could have been part bred, all i know is that the last stallion she was put to took a chunk out of her back end so they didn't foal from her again as she is a kicker now. here's a not very clear pic of one of the scars on her bum: (it feels worse than it looks)
http://static.flickr.com/62/183514207_60c243836b.jpg

[mad mare1]

Crystal has a similar scar, from her half sister kicking her in the field...she now has a bald spot...daft mare!

My program is just dates and breeding I'm afraid...no piccies!

[ambatt]

She is on allbreeds - I checked last night:

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/dancing+dawn2

If you go to the reports section on the link, scroll to the bottom, click and you will see photos of her ancestors. She has an identical head to Dwarka - really quite remarkable.

She is not 100% Crabbet, she has a Polish line through Argos and has a high percentage of Old English in her pedigree.

She seems to resemble her distant Old English ancestors quite a lot, she has a few lines to Dwarka and also Ruth Kesia and Mootrub - very old lines indeed.

She is a gem of Old English and Crabbet and that in itself explains why she looks so different from the 'modern arabian'. You are very, very lucky to have her. I cannot believe she is 29!

If her old certificate was full it explains the invalid!

[ambatt]

Her tail female line (The very bottom of the pedigree, far left) goes back to a mare called Mahawiliyah, a grey Kehaileh (don't know which particular Kehailan strain) foaled in 1935. She was bred by Abdul Kadim Jabbar, Sheikh of the Ali Yisar. Her sire was a Managhi stallion of Haji Fayadh, Sheikh of the Abu Amer Yusufijah. She was imported into England in 1939 and ws owned by J. Spence and J. C. Sword successively. I know the Sword stud was still breeding in the late 1980s

[Alex T]

hehe i agree with you coss it is very complicated all i know is my blonde looks exactly like her dad and her grandmum and dad on her mothers side :D even with the help of the allbreeds website unless youve got an expert on stand by to explain it all it tends to be a long list of funny names:p

[coss]

She is on allbreeds - I checked last night:

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/dancing+dawn2

If you go to the reports section on the link, scroll to the bottom, click and you will see photos of her ancestors. She has an identical head to Dwarka - really quite remarkable.

She is not 100% Crabbet, she has a Polish line through Argos and has a high percentage of Old English in her pedigree.

She seems to resemble her distant Old English ancestors quite a lot, she has a few lines to Dwarka and also Ruth Kesia and Mootrub - very old lines indeed.

She is a gem of Old English and Crabbet and that in itself explains why she looks so different from the 'modern arabian'. You are very, very lucky to have her. I cannot believe she is 29!

If her old certificate was full it explains the invalid!

6th owner went onto the back of the certificate, i'm the 7th owner and there simply wasn't any room left so she's gone a brand spanking new one that makes me look like her only owner. I am her 7th official owner but she has been loaned to people in the past so has had countless people "owning" her, poor girl. I'll see how she copes with this winter but i might do a 25 miles hack thing that is done near me over two days, 7 miles 1st day, 18 the next. But as i say, have to see how her condition keeps through winter and getting her fit etc while i'm at uni could be a problem.
Will try and get some more recent pics of her up on the site as the ones from earlier are pretty old. she would have been in the range of 24-27 probably but her attitude is still the same now as it was then. :D

[coss]

hehe i agree with you coss it is very complicated all i know is my blonde looks exactly like her dad and her grandmum and dad on her mothers side :D even with the help of the allbreeds website unless youve got an expert on stand by to explain it all it tends to be a long list of funny names:p

so so confusing. if you keep going back through her generations it takes you back to the desert bred horses! :eek: how odd, but that is going back over 100 years :p

[mad mare1]

Ambatt...can you do Crystal's tail female line for me please..I have no idea which strain she is, but would love to know...her pedigree is here www.allbreedpedigree.com/crystal+atlantis

Coss..I don't know if you have seen piccies od my girly...but she is very like yours...chunky, and hairy in winter, in fact...here she is...

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b208/madmare1/Picture140.jpg

hope you like!

[ambatt]

Of course I can Mad Mare - anything for the lovely Crystal.

I am just checking Crystal's pedigree on Allbreeds as I am not sure White Lace's pedigree is correct on there. In my pedigree book White Lace is by White Lightening ( Burkan x Latawica) out of Nasim ( Jair x Nasam) on Allbreeds White Lace is out of Nasim (Nassar x Nadik)!

If my pedigree book (Pesi Gazder The Arab Horse Families of Great Britain 1875-1973') is correct then the tail female for Crystal is this:

Crystal Atlantis - Shahlotte - White Lace - Nasim - Nasam - Nisan - Gayza - Gulnare - Ghazala - Bint Helwa - Helwa - Horra - Ghazieh

Ghazieh was a grey seglawieh jedranieh of Ibn Soudan, bred in the desert and purchased for the stud of Abbas Pasha, Viceroy of Egypt. On his death what he possessed of the strain passed into the hands of Ali Pasha Sherif. The Blunts purchased 5 mares of this strain and imported two, Johara and Bint Helwa into England. Johara was given away in 1903 and Bint Helwa died in 1907.

So Crystal is a seglawieh jedranieh of Ibn Soudan.

[ferna]

ooooooooooo how exciting, will keep my eyes on this one i love a happy endings, by the way Coss you re Arab plaiting instructions were great on my forum, I went to my stables and practiced like mad, only thing is ive still not worked out how to download a piccy to show you on here yet!! div.. will have a go soon good luck guys Ferna x :D

[mad mare1]

Thanks Ambatt...when I get my new girly...I'll let you do hers for me as well!!! And when she has her foal, he or she will be half egyptian, quarter spanish, and quarter crabbet! So I am hoping for a good one!

[ambatt]

No problem MM, pleasure.
So who is your new girlie then? Is it Petradina??

[Slave 2 Magic]

Sorry 4 butting in but can you help me Mad Mare 1? The only part of my mares pedigree that I can't trace is her Grand Dam on her Dams side. Its a mare called Czarintha and according to my AHS papers she has dual registration? Not a clue what that means or who she is. Can you help?

[mad mare1]

CZARINTHA AHSB 8215 can't find a dual registration though however heres the info

by CRYSTAL CZAR AHSB 6539 out of GHAI -THA AHSB 5640

she is a distant relative of our Crystal through the Crystal King

She has bred the following foals

BLUE ZEPHYR AHSB 11908 by KASHAN foaled 1980

CRYSTAL MOON AHSB 140787 by KASHAN foaled 1982

MAGIC CRYSTALINA AHSB 1573 by MAGIC ARGOSY foaled 1984

BLUE ZEPHYR has produced the following foals
BLUE ZIROCCO
MAGIC SAPPHIRE

theres no registered progeny for CRYSTAL MOON probably he was gelded at an early age

MAGIC CRYSTALINA has produced
DALRIADA
MAGIC MAN
MUSICAL MAGIC
NIRVANA MIRAGE
PHREDS A DIAMOND he was exported to the United Arab Emirates and gelded

Hope this helps a little if you need anything else give us a yell.

[kunama]

how about a mare called Crystal Glaze VII, pleeeease:D (Arri's mum), i figure she must be reg'd somewhere and have a pedigree due to the VII bit in her name , and the cryastal part is awfully coincidental......., but i have never been able to trace her, she could well be purebred from her looks but there may be some TB in there too.

So a bit of a mystery for you to solve, pleeeeeeeeeease:D :p !

[mad mare1]

Must be part bred hun...definitely not on my database...and that only covers pure breds. Sorry hun!

[Slave 2 Magic]

Wow! Cheers Mad Mare. That was the only part of her breeding I couldnt track down. Her sire's side was easy. Does it say what colour Czarintha is? All the others are 100% grey.

[mad mare1]

Czarintha was a grey, but she carried a strong chestnut line through Crystal Czar...And Czar's half brother, Crystal Magician...my girls grand sire...is dark liver chestnut!

So which is your horse then?

I am presuming that your horse is either one of Blue Zephyr's, or one of Magic Crystalina's foals? Magic Man possibly?

[crinks]

Sorry Ambatt, Ems says that its not Petra that she is leasing but April! She is being covered by El Rashid , sams Lovely Egyptian/Crabbet boy! I personally can't wait for baby to appear, will be 1/4 spanish. 1/4 crabbet and 1/2 egyptian what a lovely combination! Its a long time since we have had babies around this place and we need some now!

[kunama]

so if she is part bred is there any way i can trace her pedigree?

[Slave 2 Magic]

My mare's pedigree name is Crystanina Bint Padan. She wont be on your data as she was born in 2000. She is out of Magic Crystalina and by Padan Shah (Kerim Shah) US. Nice to her our girlys are distantly related.

[mad mare1]

the only way Kunama is to try to trace her breeder...or try allbreedpedigree.com....she may be on there!

Salve to magic...did you see the photo I put up of Crystal?

[ambatt]

Sorry Ambatt, Ems says that its not Petra that she is leasing but April!

I think Em has done rather well there!:D

Kunama - you could contact the AHS as they hold the Anglo and partbred Studbooks.

[Slave 2 Magic]

Mad Mare 1
I've seen pics of your Crystal on here and on arabian lines. She's a lovely looking girl. She's in her 20's but thinks she's a 3 year old if i recall?:D

[kunama]

so i just ring the AHS and ask if they have her on the data base?

[mad mare1]

thats her slave...flipping nutty mare!

Kunama...ring them, and ask if she is on the Part bred or anglo registers...give them her name, and they should be able to find her.