Monty Roberts Arena UK photos

[raingodz]

Here are some photos I took at this weeks Monty Roberts Arena UK demo

Rocky who didn't like clippers:
http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f192/raingodz/Monty%20Demo/52000036.jpg

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f192/raingodz/Monty%20Demo/52000035.jpg

Fire, the stunning appaloosa stallion being backed for the first time:
http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f192/raingodz/Monty%20Demo/52000034.jpg

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f192/raingodz/Monty%20Demo/52000033.jpg

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f192/raingodz/Monty%20Demo/52000032.jpg

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f192/raingodz/Monty%20Demo/52000031.jpg

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f192/raingodz/Monty%20Demo/52000029.jpg

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f192/raingodz/Monty%20Demo/52000028.jpg

[raingodz]

Eric who was scared of most things:
http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f192/raingodz/Monty%20Demo/52000026.jpg

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f192/raingodz/Monty%20Demo/52000025.jpg

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f192/raingodz/Monty%20Demo/52000023.jpg

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f192/raingodz/Monty%20Demo/52000018.jpg

Sweetheart who bucked:
http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f192/raingodz/Monty%20Demo/52000015.jpg

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f192/raingodz/Monty%20Demo/52000014.jpg

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f192/raingodz/Monty%20Demo/52000013.jpg

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f192/raingodz/Monty%20Demo/52000012.jpg

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f192/raingodz/Monty%20Demo/52000010.jpg

[raingodz]

And finally, Dan Wilson riding Sweetheart:
http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f192/raingodz/Monty%20Demo/52000006.jpg

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f192/raingodz/Monty%20Demo/52000005.jpg

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f192/raingodz/Monty%20Demo/52000002.jpg

[julia gulia]

wow great pictures there:) So, how was each problem handled ? Can you share a little with us raingodz ?

[raingodz]

wow great pictures there:) So, how was each problem handled ? Can you share a little with us raingodz ?

OK...

For Rocky who didn't like clippers he was put into a more confined space (made from the round pen fencing) and then they used a hair dryer to get him used to the noise, then the clippers and hair dryer together, then the clippers by them selves. It was obviouse that there was more work needed, but it gave the owner something to work on.

For Fire there was the useual join up thing, then the saddle was put on and he was allowd to run around a bit, then long lined and then ridden. I had heard that Monty Roberts never worked with Appaloosas (in one of those internet rumor things) because they were too independenly minded. To a cirtain extent this was true, but Monty did get him working well and this made for a more interesting demo.

Got to do a bit of work :eek: I'll write about the others soon!

[julia gulia]

I shall check back here later then for another update. Having a job really does interfere with horses doesn't it? How annoying:p

[raingodz]

OK, back again...

Horse 3 was Eric who was scared of every thing (seemingly). Monty worked fistly with a stick, then a stick with a small carrier bag then a stick with lots of carrier bags. By the end of the demo he was able to place the stick with lotts of carrier bags on the back of Eric with out him kicking, shying or bolting.

Horse 4 was Sweetheart whos was a real bucker. Monty used a device called a buck-stopper. It seemed to be very effective, but there are many who questioned how NH this device is. But by the end of the demo he was able to get Dan Wilson riding with out trouble.

There were two more horses who would not load, but I'd run out of film by then and I find the loading demos a bit boring :o

[julia gulia]

Thanks so much for continuing the update..much appreciated:)
I've never heard of the "buck stopper" so that was interesting. Could you tell how it was supposed to stop the bucking? Is this something Monty Roberts designed? What were people concerns about it?
Sorry for all the questions:D

[raingodz]

If you look at the horses head in this photo you can see what looks like a simple thin rope haulter over the head collar:

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f192/raingodz/Monty%20Demo/52000005.jpg

This then has a line that goes down the back of the neck to the front of the saddle at the other end the line goes round the horses chin (I think :o)

The idea is that if the horse plunges it's head down ready to buck it creates pressue on the chin and stops the head going down too far.

Monty Roberts said that he does not often use this device and that in saves the lives of the rider and stops the horse bucking. He also said that it only has to be used for a short while and is not needed for ever because he thinks it is very successful in stopping the bucking.

[raingodz]

Is this something Monty Roberts designed? What were people concerns about it?

Yes it is something that Monty Roberts Designed.

I think peoples concerns are that it might be seen as causing pain with an artificial device to change a horses behaviour, which is not seen to be very NH.

This is the first time I have seen one on action. I did not see it up close so I could not see quite how it fitted round the chin/mouth area. The horse did stop bucking almost imidiatly and did not fight against the device or try to remove it. Neither did it shout in pain or anything like that. So I have yet to form an opinion.

I suspect that a device such as this used by someone with out the correct knowledge could cause problems.

[julia gulia]

Yes it is something that Monty Roberts Designed.

I think peoples concerns are that it might be seen as causing pain with an artificial device to change a horses behaviour, which is not seen to be very NH.

This is the first time I have seen one on action. I did not see it up close so I could not see quite how it fitted round the chin/mouth area. The horse did stop bucking almost imidiatly and did not fight against the device or try to remove it. Neither did it shout in pain or anything like that. So I have yet to form an opinion.

I suspect that a device such as this used by someone with out the correct knowledge could cause problems.

Thanks for the great description and pictures:) I guess what would worry me is the fact that a horse could be bucking because of pain and some people may just use the buck stopper to cure the bucking but not the cause:o

[raingodz]

I guess what would worry me is the fact that a horse could be bucking because of pain and some people may just use the buck stopper to cure the bucking but not the cause:o
Monty Roberts did make it very clear that he always asks if the horse that bucks has been checked for medical reasons and had its back checked too before he does anything at all.

[Kate F.]

Yes it is something that Monty Roberts Designed.


I'm not sure about that. I think it's in principle what is more commonly known as a "gum line" or "war bridle" and it doesn't go under the chin, but rather under the lip to cut the horse in the mouth if it puts its head down to buck. He might have been the first to call it a buck-stopper - but he also claims he invented/discovered join-up - whereas he was just the first to call it that. It had been going under the name of hook-on and other terms for decades and centuries, if not millennia before!

I think most genuine NH people deplore the buck-stopper, gum-line or any other gadget that inflicts pain to discourage the symptom without addressing the cause. Trying to justify it by saying it "saves lives" is irrelevant - the same could be said of any punitive restraining device. If the horse is not ready or able to accept the rider willingly, either for physical or psychological reasons, that needs to be dealt carefully and with understanding before thinking about getting on - even if it takes hours, days, weeks, months or years. Sorry, Monty - horses are not set to your showtime stopwatch! :p For me, any "fix it with force" device goes against the fundamental principles of true natural horsemanship.

Horses buck for all sorts of reasons - but they always have a reason and it's pretty much always based in fear of one type or another. Bucking is a typical "get rid of the predator" reaction. Treating it with pain can only at best suppress the fear, which will then come out in some other form, or at worst reinforce it so the bucking gets even worse.

[Crystal Fire]

There's been some great debate on other forums about the buckstopper Kate.
The justification seems to come down to Monty's demo being the "last chance" for the horse. That the horse is only there because all else has failed, sort of "buckstopper or bullet". So many think that it's use is justified, it doesn't cause that much pain, and at the end of the day it works.
From accounts given by people who were at this demo, I was under the impression that the horse would try to buck a couple of times, then stop because of the consequences caused by the buckstopper. So the process would be relatively quick and straightforward. From these photos it seems that the horse would have tested the buckstopper a lot more than that, and even continued to do it after a human rider was put on top. I wonder about adrenalin... and if the buckstopper could have a twitching action on the gum... (gumlines can be used to quieten horses for veterinary procedures, I had a Google and a read up).
I have pondered to myself about what the reaction would be if Pat Parelli had been the first to put a gumline on a horse, tie a dummy on to it's back, and let it loose to work it out for itself.
I know several natural horsemen and women that I admire, all of whom seem to be able to help bucking horses, and none of them would use a device like this. It this is truly the last chance for these demo horses, then it doesn't say much for the quality of the trainers the poor owners tried previously.
Of course, a lot of what Monty does at demos is fascinating and opens up people to new ideas. I personally wish he had kept this idea to himself.
p.s. Anyone else question whether a demo is the right place to deal with a horse with a big issue like this?

[chocchick]

BTW where was this demo, was it near Sheffield?

[jenren!!]

Hmmm. The real thing that 'gets me' about the buck-stopper is the fact that when you take the contraption off, then you have the bucking again.

The problem is, with a horse that is so bad, is this the last resort?

[india]

Hmmm. The real thing that 'gets me' about the buck-stopper is the fact that when you take the contraption off, then you have the bucking again.

The problem is, with a horse that is so bad, is this the last resort?

I agree, still the bucking plus one very stressed out horse. This gadget is nothing short of a cruel contraption that doesn't belong in any horsemans toolbox.

Horses buck for a reason and the cause (more often than not) is pain related or poor training, neither of which can be resolved by the buck-stopper.

In my opinion, Monty Roberts keeps to many gadgets in his toolbox to be classed an NH trainer.

[Crystal Fire]

I don't think it is the last resort, I think it's the last resort of bad trainers. (Not saying Monty is a bad trainer, but that the problem should be dealt with outside the limited time frame of a demo). I'm not going to name names because then the discussion could turn into "them and us", but I know trainers who deal with problem horses day in and day out, without needing to resort to methods like this. Once physical causes have been eliminated as much as possible, then the people I know seem to take the horse right back to basics and work from there. The bucking behaviour will come out at some stage during the re-backing process. Or not... sometimes thorough preparation means it goes away.
You might not get bucking again once the buckstopper comes off, because you may have managed to change the pattern. However, it is my understanding that these horses then go away to be helped some more by Monty Roberts trainers, so it seems as if Monty doesn't see this as the end of the story.
I hope you don't mind us picking up on the photos to discuss this Raingodz, it's my first look at photos of this gadget being used, although I have seen the same idea used by a horse dealer. :mad:

[Tots N Dots]

I was one of the people who thought the buck stopper was not very "NH".
BUT it was very effective, sometimes a horse isnt bucking for any reason other than it has learnt that it can!
yes it did go under the top lip,
Sweetheart very quickly picked up "umm maybe bucking aint such a good idea"
and I think saving lives is very relevant (said as an opinion, no offence ment Kate F), its probably saving the life of the horse as much as that of the rider,
the out come of a horse that bucks everyone off? off to market, someone buys it (as happened here), without the intervention of someone who can stop it bucking? it bucks! goes back to market, eventually it would turn into a spiral of abuse and neglect and finally death for the horse, hopefully put to sleep humainly, but maybe left to suffer first cause no one could do anything with it?
If I had bought that horse I would sooner use a buck stopper for a week or so, whats the alternative? have it PTS? sell on for someone to get hurt? put her in foal and have a horse I cant do anything with to feed and care for?
I am not saying for one minute I condone or agree with causeing horses pain or discomfort, but sometimes the end does justify the means in an extreem case :o
(ok hideing in the bunker, tin hat in place :D )

[Tots N Dots]

Anyone else question whether a demo is the right place to deal with a horse with a big issue like this?
no I dont think a demo is a place for any issue with a horse or other animal, but if it makes the world as a whole a better place for horses in general? then again its a case of the ends justifying the means.
After all I took Pickle in February to a Monty Demo, I did find the whole operation proffesional and really enjoyed it.
I am not totally NH and dont follow just one trainer I just want to deal with my horse in the kindest way possible without him walking all over me, and taking Pickle and watching the demo did open my eyes a bit, but I have to say I dont like the Dually halter either?

[emlybob]

You can all scream and shout at me now but i am afraid by what i have read and heard the demo at arena uk wasn't all that great. My opinion and i mean MY opinion is that Monty Roberts is a very good show man and a very good business man. The thing is that the tecniques he uses are only exaggerated tecniques that we all use and he only manages to market them well. Any horse that has a problem should NOT be sorted out at a demo with hundreds of people watching. It surely will only add to the stress of the situation and from what i have heard, alot of these horses resort very quickly back to their old ways once they have returned home. Also i don't think it's right to back a horse in 30 mins. What is he trying to prove. It isn't just the mental issue for the horse but also the physical. Traditionally we break a horse in by increasing its fitness and improving it's muscle development before we even sit on it. All i can see from the way Monty does it is that the horse is not physically strong enough to carry the weight of a human and therefore might start to resent this weight the more it happens. And i would love to see what would happen once the horse was let out of the round pen!!! Sorry guys but this is my opinion and i am not saying that he is wrong to do things his way but everyone is different. Some things work for him and somethings don't, but isn't that the same for us all and isn't that life. Horses weren't bred to be ridden and domesticated but now we have done this we should treat them accordingly

[Cool Rider]

Nice Photos
All the horses are sweet :D
Looks like you had a nice time :)

[Crystal Fire]

If I had bought that horse I would sooner use a buck stopper for a week or so, whats the alternative? have it PTS? sell on for someone to get hurt? put her in foal and have a horse I cant do anything with to feed and care for?

Like I said know trainers who deal with problem horses day in and day out, without needing to resort to methods like this.
p.s. emlybob I think there are a lot of people who wouldn't dream of shouting at you, and don't apologise for your opinion - everyone is entitled to an opinion :-)

[jenren!!]

You can all scream and shout at me now but i am afraid by what i have read and heard the demo at arena uk wasn't all that great. My opinion and i mean MY opinion is that Monty Roberts is a very good show man and a very good business man. The thing is that the tecniques he uses are only exaggerated tecniques that we all use and he only manages to market them well. Any horse that has a problem should NOT be sorted out at a demo with hundreds of people watching. It surely will only add to the stress of the situation and from what i have heard, alot of these horses resort very quickly back to their old ways once they have returned home. Also i don't think it's right to back a horse in 30 mins. What is he trying to prove. It isn't just the mental issue for the horse but also the physical. Traditionally we break a horse in by increasing its fitness and improving it's muscle development before we even sit on it. All i can see from the way Monty does it is that the horse is not physically strong enough to carry the weight of a human and therefore might start to resent this weight the more it happens. And i would love to see what would happen once the horse was let out of the round pen!!! Sorry guys but this is my opinion and i am not saying that he is wrong to do things his way but everyone is different. Some things work for him and somethings don't, but isn't that the same for us all and isn't that life. Horses weren't bred to be ridden and domesticated but now we have done this we should treat them accordingly
Im certainly not gonna shout and scream, because i agree 100%.

[Imp]

Interesting post Raingodz :) I'm really interested in embracing I.H in training my mare and in her riding so was very pleased to see the pictures of the demo and hear accounts of the horses used.

Emlybob: You raise interesting and valid points that I hadn't considered (I've never seen one of Monty's demos before). I've found with my I.H trainer that things she taught me with Megan were easy for Meg to understand in a matter of minutes and have (I hesitate to say cure) altered her behaviour in ways that please me and make our life together easier. I do have to be constant and consistent with keeping that up though and I know that she would, as you point out, revert to her old ways in minutes given the scope. Re the backing and the stress on the horse physically and emotionally; yet another very valid point for discussion but one I have no knowledge to comment on... interesting debate though, thanks :)

[emlybob]

Thanks Imp i am glad u respect other peoples opinions thought i was a bit harsh but its just cos i have strong views and sometimes my mouth just runs away. I must also say that i do read and accept everyones opinions

[Yann]

Nice pics :)

but rather under the lip to cut the horse in the mouth if it puts its head down to buck.

Not the one used by Monty at this demo, nor anywhere previously as far as I'm aware. The horse gets a thump under the top lip for sure but no blood, or apparently long term discomfort of any kind are involved either. The horse did one big buck, two tentative ones and stopped completely. I'm ambivalent about this device and was pleased to get the chance to see it in actual use, because it's something I've not seen Monty use before, even with serious buckers. How NH is it? In principle not very as it involves applying an aversive to reduce a behaviour rather than encouraging one ie punishment. Is it effective? Very. Would I use one on my own horse if all other avenues had genuinely been exhausted? Probably. And there are plenty of horses who have been 'fixed' or started on the road to being fixed after featuring at demos, including buckers. I spent the evening with the owner of a bucking horse from the last demo in the area and she said it had been a hugely positive experience for him.

Nobody using Monty's methods or probably Monty himself for all I know would normally aim to back a horse in 20 minutes at home. It would be a gradual process over the space of a few weeks. It's his 'signature' thing, just to show how effective join up can be. The horse is sat on and walked around for no more than a couple of minutes with a light rider on, so I don't see that it's going to be any kind of problem physically for them.

[raingodz]

BTW where was this demo, was it near Sheffield?
It was at arena UK nr Grantham (under 90mins drive from sheffield - unless there is thick fog :rolleyes: )

[Styric]

The buckstopper sounds like an old fashioned war bridle. It's essentially a one person twitch that acts on a pressure point on their gum that when engaged causes either severe mouth pain/gives a shot of endorphins, ie a mini trank (depending on who you ask). I've seen it used when a single person needed to twitch a horse and have them stay very very still; at that time it was to get at a wire wrapped around his front leg that was cutting into an artery. I don't see it very often, but it looked exactly like the headpiece and was tightened until the horse stood rock still with his head down. Then her hands were free to attend to his leg.

I hope not. That is a method of restraint, and a brutal one at that. The horse wouldn't let anyone near him with a rope for months after that. It doesn't educate, train or work with the horse in any way, it simply FORCES them. It could be compared to someone grabbing and twisting your ear to force you to stand still. You'll stand still, but you're unlikely to let them near you again after.

That really makes me furious. It's NOT a tool to be used except in emergency circumstances and even then should never be used as a 'training' or 'communication' device as it is neither.

[Crystal Fire]

Interesting Styric, I don't know if you've read the whole thread (worth a read if not :) ), but Kate F compared it to a war bridle earlier, and I wondered about the twitching effect. There's a place for everything, and I can see if you were on your own dealing with a horse caught in wire, that might be a good place to use a war bridle.

[colettybetty]

I was at this demo, I'd not seen his work before and I was probably expecting something different.The buck stopper was used on a horse that had been bought from a sale (I wonder why :rolleyes: ). this mare was unrideable, she was determined that no one would ever sit on her back.Without help, this lovely horse was destined to be a field ornament or shot.The buck stopper, we were told, only applies pressure to the lip if the horse puts its head down to buck, and the results were pretty quick. Monty said that he recommends the buck stopper is used for a month.In this horses case, I really don't know what else would have worked, perhaps it enabled her to realise that being ridden was actually ok ?
I did feel frustrated by the demo, in that i feel i would rather have watched these horses being worked with over a period of time in a familiar environment with their owners being educated too.I would have preferred to see a quiet approach designed to build trust and confidence with troubled horses, but I suppose under the circumstances Monty is only able to give a taste of his work, not forgetting that some of the horses he deals with are dangerous.
What surprised me was how do some owners cope with horses that are so disrespectful, with no ground manners at all.Scarey and no fun, and what a shame that beautiful horses get to be that way through poor management.

[clipa clopa]

I'm not a big Monty fan at all - but I totally agree with the buck stopper.

It does not cause discomfort unless the horse tries to buck. From what I gather, horses at Monty demo's have already been checked out for other causes of pain (saddle, back probs etc) & it is used as a last resort & on very few horses/ponies.

If a horse learns to buck people off with no consequence then it will likely do it again. How many of you (or know of people) have bought well behaved horses then had problems down the line because the horse has won??

There are some people who don't know what a real bucker is - & it's certainly not one who has a little rodeo round the school/field for 20 seconds or puts in the odd buck out cantering.

I agree it should not be used for most horses or by novices but I would love to see some of the sceptics on here ride a real bucker & see what damage they cause & then say it shouldn't be used.

[Crystal Fire]

I get very tired of this "if you're so clever you ride it" argument. I don't ride buckers any more because I am too old - but I did when I was younger. If I'd known then what I know now I'd have fallen off less and sorted the problem more easily :D Physical ability or lack of it doesn't prove anything about people's knowledge and experience. Even Monty can't ride bucking horses any more - fair enough poor old bloke!
However, I do know exactly what a "real bucker" is, and I've spent a lot of time with people who know how to help these horses. People who work day in and day out helping difficult horses back into useful life. So, I say again, in my opinion there probably was another and less time-constrained way to help these horses. But, if a buckstopper is fine by you, then it's not that huge a deal to me. I've seen a lot worse done to horses. I wouldn't have that approach used on one of mine though, particularly in a demo.

[clipa clopa]

[QUOTE=Crystal Fire;1050773 I get very tired of this "if you're so clever you ride it" argument. I don't ride buckers any more because I am too old - but I did when I was younger. If I'd known then what I know now I'd have fallen off less and sorted the problem more easily :D Physical ability or lack of it doesn't prove anything about people's knowledge and experience. Even Monty can't ride bucking horses any more - fair enough poor old bloke!QUOTE]

Crystal Fire - I wasn't referring to anyone in particular :confused: but if you think that my comment/opinion applies to you then fair enough!

What I am trying to say is that most people can't ride a real bucker & most professionals don't want to as they know what they are really capable of & it's their livli-hood. Why get hurt or risk someone else for the very bad cases. :confused: :confused: :confused:
Lots of yards/people who advertise to fix/help problem horses, don't actually want the very bad ones - just the ones who have been messed up a bit!

[india]

..... I would love to see some of the sceptics on here ride a real bucker & see what damage they cause & then say it shouldn't be used.
As I mentioned in my earlier post, horses always buck for a reason,whether it be through pain, fear or bad training.
If it's caused by pain or fear the buckstopper only adds to the problem. Admitedly, it provides a short term fix while the horse is wearing it..... but a buckstopper doesn't teach them NOT to buck because horses don't learn well when they are fearful or in pain.

I have seen a real bucker in action and I've also witnessed the gradual improvement in him through the help of a good trainer who gained his trust and took him back to basics. It took nearly 18 months before the horse could be classed as a safe ride but this was achieved without the 'aid' of a buckstopper.

So yes, I can say with confidence that I don't believe a buckstopper should be used to retrain a 'real' bucker.

[Kate F.]

Well said, India!!

[Crystal Fire]

Your comment applies to me clipa clopa because I put my hands up to being a sceptic about buckstoppers, and I'm happy to. :)
You're missing the point about having to ride a real bucker. Re-training a bucking horse isn't simply about getting on and hanging in there while the horse throws its worst at you. Often it's about going back to basics and seeing if that doesn't help the horse to feel different about things, in many cases it does.
Sad that there aren't more professionals prepared to or able to help with this sort of problem. Fortunately for me, I know some who are who are. (I reckon Kate F would have a few ideas to try out as well). I also know people who have set themselves up to help with "problem" horses, but only take on the ones that aren't too big a "problem". Say no more... :D
If a buckstopper's OK by you then really it's not a big deal, compared to horses with their heads tied down for days to soften their mouths, horses winched into trailers when they won't load etc etc... But for me the "buckstop or shoot it" argument is pretty thin.
p.s. For me this isn't ABOUT MONTY, it's just about the tool and the environment it's used in. I admire Heather Moffet, but I'd ask the same questions if she did this.

[Yann]

If it's caused by pain or fear the buckstopper only adds to the problem. Admitedly, it provides a short term fix while the horse is wearing it..... but a buckstopper doesn't teach them NOT to buck because horses don't learn well when they are fearful or in pain.

The buckstopper should never be used on a horse in pain or fear, that would be extremely unethical. And whatever you think of it, it does provide a long term fix used in the correct circumstances.

[india]

The buckstopper should never be used on a horse in pain or fear, that would be extremely unethical. And whatever you think of it, it does provide a long term fix used in the correct circumstances.

What would you class as 'in the right circumstances' Yann. You've agreed it should never be used on a horse in pain or fear, so does this mean you'd find it perfectly acceptable to be used on a horse that's learned to buck through bad training?

I can't honestly see how a buckstopper could provide a long term fix. Take for instance a horse that's learned to lean on the bit or one that raises his head to avoid contact. What happens..they're very often put in stronger bits, tie downs, martingales etc.....take those away and the horse will revert back to his old habit. Exactly the same scenario would happen with a buckstopper.

In my opinion, the only way to help a horse overcome this problem is by experience, time and going back to basics.

[Yann]

As I pointed out earlier in the thread I have rather mixed feelings about it myself. I'd always look to use the slow and most humane route with any remedial training I ever got involved in (OK unlikely). It's the real world though, and sometimes people don't have the time, resources, or even availability of those resources to follow this kind of route. Does the end justify the means? Sometimes perhaps, and it's down to the individual owner to decide that as with anything else. Having seen the buckstopper in use it wasn't actually that big a deal. The horse did one big buck, two small half hearted ones and then stopped. There was no blood, no shaking of the head in discomfort, but the horse was visibly thinking about what had happened.

As I understand it the buckstopper is used on horses to break a pattern of learned behaviour, so it is initially used full time on the horse until the new pattern of behaviour (ie not bucking) is well established, and then it's removed. If fitted correctly it doesn't hamper the horse in any way in normal conditions. I'm aware of at least two horses that were habitual buckers (training, remembered pain, whatever) that have been permanently fixed after the buckstopper was used on them. Not saying I like it, but it is undoubtedly effective, and not particularly horrible in the scheme of things.

[Tots N Dots]

I have seen a real bucker in action and I've also witnessed the gradual improvement in him through the help of a good trainer who gained his trust and took him back to basics. It took nearly 18 months before the horse could be classed as a safe ride but this was achieved without the 'aid' of a buckstopper.
please dont get me wrong I am not having a go, just voiceing my opinion.

I wish we all had the facilities and the finances to take a remedial horse for 18 months, retrain it, feed it, house it, rug it, just because we may have a chance that we can cure its problems?

yes I agree above is how it should be done in a perfect world, but then you could also say that in a perfect world the horse wouldnt be bucking in the first place.

[india]

Yann, I find it interesting that people with a problem horse who state they haven't time to follow the right route, very often end up spending a lot more time in trying to find 'a quick fix'.

I've had another look at Sweetheart's pictures on this thread and by his body language he appears to be very stressed and fearful. I wasn't at the demo so I'll take your word for it that he only gave one big buck and two half hearted one's. But, to be honest, in my opinion the pictures depict a horse that would have bucked many more times than that.

Again, in my opinion, it would be totally unacceptable to use a buckstopper on any horse 'full time' untill he learned not to buck, I think even Monty has mentioned something like, it should only be used as a last resort and no longer than a month.

I can't accept the theory about the buckstopper not hampering the horse in normal conditions (even if fitted correctly). In normal conditions horses can stumble, if this happened it would certainly inflict immense pain to the horse and that in itself could cause additional behaviour problems.

I hope you don't mind me asking Yann, but what trainer used or advised the use of the buckstopper to 'fix' the two habitual buckers you mentioned?

[india]

I wish we all had the facilities and the finances to take a remedial horse for 18 months, retrain it, feed it, house it, rug it, just because we may have a chance that we can cure its problems?
I can assure you, the horse in question didn't have owners that where wealthy. :)

He was at rented livery on 24/7 turnout, had two winter rugs and was only fed hay and a little hard feed in winter. The owners had a professional trainer in once a month to help and advise them with the problem. I must admit they where quite knowledgable and experienced with horses themselves, this is why they took the horse on in the first place - they KNEW, that given time they could help him overcome his problem - which they have now achieved.:D

At the end of the day, it's what route the individual owner prefers to take. Whether it's a 'quick fix' or the longer 'back to basics' method. Either way,I shouldn't imagine there's much difference in the finance side of it.

[Yann]

I hope you do take my word for it - I'm not an apologist for this device and was watching the whole thing with great interest considering the amount of discussion it has generated in the past. Photos are one thing, actually being there is another as you're probably only too well aware. No question the horse was stressed, her head was up and you could see she wanted to buck but knew what would happen if she did, but she was much calmer by the end of the session.

The horses I'm aware of were ones Monty worked with, and as to the mode of use I'm just going on what he said during the demo :)

[india]

Thanks for that Yann, I thought it would probably be Monty because I haven't heard of any other respected trainer in the UK who uses this device.

[Yann]

Neither have I - I'm not sure any of the specialist IH Recommended Associates do either.

[kirstie]

Great piccies i went to the monty roberts at bishop burton college 10th oct

there was:
Bad loader
Horse scared of everything
Horse that barges forwards and
a never backed horse

wish i had took amba with me would of been good

[colettybetty]

just to clarify one point, Monty recommended the buck stopper be used for a month, but without the line attached after a couple of sessions, therefore,it wouldn't actually be doing anything more than having a placebo effect.
Having watched the device used, in circumstances that were stressful and less than ideal, I personally wouldn't condemn the device in experienced hands.The horse in question had had all physical causes ruled out, and had such severe bucking issues, that even after extensive re-training (if the owners could find someone with the ability and had the finances)- I would not have been first in the queue to get on her back.

actually makes me smile that I'm defending something that others think is inhumane,what I think is cruel is sedating horses for clipping, over rugging and over -bitting and a thousand other things I see done to horses everyday of their lives, not a device used to teach them quickly that being ridden is not fearful.

[india]

Just out of interest, can anyone purchase the Monty Roberts buckstopper? If so, surely this is leaving the gate open for inexperienced handlers to use it on their horses, with possible disasterous results.

If, on the other hand it isn't available for purchase, what trainer would be experienced enough to use it correctly and I wonder what his/her hourly rate would be?

[Yann]

It's definitely not IH merchandise and it's never been sold at any demos I've ever been to. I've not heard of any other practitioners who use it either, but that doesn't mean there won't be any.

[Crystal Fire]

As Yann says, Monty and the IH organisation don't sell buckstoppers. And all the work at the demos is supposed to be followed up by work with RA's.
My experience of trainers who help bucking horses would say how long depends on the horse, but if they are with the trainer full-time and worked on daily you might see the end of it within a week. It might even go away. Or it might take a few weeks longer :D
Kirstie - what does your Amba get up to then?

[india]

As Yann says, Monty and the IH organisation don't sell buckstoppers. And all the work at the demos is supposed to be followed up by work with RA's.
I'm sorry this is confusing me.....

So, all work done at the demo's is supposed to be followed up by work with RA's?

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought Kelly Marks was the only RA in the UK? I've always had great respect for her training techniques and theories and can't invisage her ever using such a device as a training tool.

If I'm correct, what happens to the horses that have had the buckstopper used on them for a demonstration if there's no RA to follow on the work? :confused:

[levi1739]

MontyRoberts methods are a bit old fashioned today. His use of 'fencepanels' to teach clipper acceptance is a bit contradictory to his 'join up' methods. In one he allows the horse to move, in the other he confines movement. It makes me think he knows little of 'approach and retreat' methods in desensitizing.

Monty's not very credible here in the US. Not because of the rumors about his books, but because of his methods. There are much better methods available today. In his books and tv show, Monty made much of his invitation to visit the Queen and work horses before her. I wonder if now he's telling folks there how much he accomplished when in the US. Truth be known, not many here mention his name anymore.

He's history here, you guys in England keep him. :cool:


Have fun, be safe

Jack

http://www.horsesplay.us/phpBB2/index.php

[colettybetty]

there is a list of approved RA's on the IH website. I understand that the chosen horses are given advice and the opportunity to work further with an RA if they choose.I would certainly hope that they would, otherwise the start made at the demo would be rather a waste.
Kelly Marks was there at the demo and assisted Monty during the night.

[Crystal Fire]

If you want to know more about what happens to the horses after demos, do RA's use buckstoppers etc it would probably be worth ringing Kelly Marks's Intelligent Horsemanship office and asking. As people on her site say that RA's don't use buckstoppers then I guess they don't continue working with them after the demo :confused: but you'd have to check with the source to know for sure.
Don't ask me - I'm not an Intelligent Horsemanship/Monty Roberts student :)
(Jack - I don't want him thanks, you can have him back :), but I'm sure others would disagree with me there :) ).

[clipa clopa]

Everyone thinks diferently - thats what make the world go round & also makes it very interesting (esp this forum) :D
Just think some are very unrealistic.

Buck stopper - All for it, on the extreme horses
Long winded method or buck stopper - either way someone will have to get on for the first time again. I would rather not be mangled & I certainly wouldn't put someone else at risk.

[india]

Thanks for that information colettybetty, I've never visited the IH site so didn't realise there was more than one RA in the UK.:o

[Yann]

There are quite a few RA's, as you say. It's worth commenting that in general what you get with an RA when they come out and work with your horse is often quite different to what you see Monty doing at a demo. In some ways the methods have moved on and developed from where he is. But he set the ball rolling.

His use of 'fencepanels' to teach clipper acceptance is a bit contradictory to his 'join up' methods.

I'd agree with that, but I'm not sure if it's driven by a need to show the audience a result in the short space of time available in the demo or not. I've watched an RA working with a clipper shy horse and they definitely use progressive desensitisation rather than flooding, which is what the use of panels amounts to.

[colettybetty]

I think sometimes its easy to forget how far we've come attitudes to horse care and training.Over the last 50 years a large proportion of horses are kept for pleasure,no longer needed as essential for liveihood or transport.I started riding 40 years ago when horses were trained and kept very differently.
Monty Roberts is 71 years old and he was one of a group of pioneers of that time who questioned the methods that he saw and looked for a gentler way.Whatever critisms can be quite validily made of his methods in demonstrations, for me, his books were a source of inspiration that caused me to question and look for alternatives, and importantly, have the confidence to do so.
There will always (I hope) be new and better ways to work with horses.People who become well known will always lay themselves open to criticism-and rightly so,but I think Monty should be given credit for the questions that he has made people ask in trying to understand working from the horses view point.