Is single line lunging cruel?

[chikakane]

Saw Monty Roberts on Saturday night at Towerlands and it was incredible, however, towards the end he said 'Single line lunging is the second most cruel thing you can do to a horse'. I've never heard this before, and he didn't expand on why it was particularly cruel.

I've always found, as a rider, that lunging was really useful but I'll never do it again if I think for a moment it's causing distress or pain to the horse. Can anyone explain why it's cruel? I don't want to kick off a massive argument, I'm just curious!

[emlybob]

I don't think its cruel in the slightest. It can be extremley beneficial to a lot of horses. Would be interested to know why he said this. If u read my post re his demo then you will see that i don't have much good to say about him anyway

[KateWooten]

I think single-line lunging is the most cruel thing you can do to a poor poor money grabbing clinician. You need no more equipment than a piece of string ... and another piece of string .. you don't need to buy an 'i don't make no profit off these you get them at cost' $3000 Monty Roberts roundpen and a $100 MR funky headcollar thingy ... anyone can do it, it's easy, simple, you can take it anywhere ... Have a heart .. Poor Monty - how's he going to buy himself an even bigger ranch if you all cotton on the fact that none of his stuff is new.. and you don't actually need to give him a large amount of money to do any of it ?

:D Single line lunging is fine - as part of your workout with your horse - as long as you have an idea in mind of what you're achieving and why - as long as it's fun for both parties - as long as your entirely focussed on your horse's physical and mental attitude while he does it.

[cvb]

mmm....

he may mean this.

That when you lunge with a single line - with pressure down the line - you are pulling the horse's nose in to the centre and out of line with their body.

i.e. done badly (like an awful lot of things) it does harm.

Whereas if you lunge with two lines, you can balance the horse better. BUT you need the skill and confidence to handle two lines well.

Lunging is a skill, an art of you like.

If you apply Natural Horsemanship (specifically PNH) type ideas to lunging, then whenever you work with a line, you are looking for the horse to give to the pressure and hence put some slack in the line. Then there is very little pressure on the horse unless they decide to vary direction or speed.

But traditionally we are taught to keep some tension in the line - and if this is over done, we are pulling the horse *in* with one hand (on the line) and pushing them *out* with the whip hand. This makes the "unstraightness" even worse :eek:

[martini55]

I wouldn't say it was cruel. I am sure Monty Roberts and his followers are very against lunging with a single line and much prefer long-reining. I think it has to do with the stress lunging can put on a horse, though there is probably much more to it. I am sure I read a thread a while ago in the Natural Horsemanship forum that discussed this topic. Perhaps do a search and see what comes up?

[emlybob]

Katewooten i loved your reply it made me chuckle!!

[Afellpony]

I was taught to lunge by an cavalary man and he always told me to keep a little slack in the line.

[cvb]

Yeah - give that man (who taught you ) a medal ! I picked up bits and pieces from here there and everywhere and seem to have worked out something that works :)

I guess I had a good teacher - my 14.2 cob who had no brakes, and is still with me at 34. If you didn't do it "right" with him, he made sure you knew about ! :D

[Skib]

Monty Roberts has always maintained that single line lunging is not a good idea. You will find detailed answers if you ask on the Intelligent Horsemanship website.

Roberts' followers and Kelly Marks RAs use long reining as a substitute for lunging. But when they convince their clients to do the same many things get ignored.

1. There is a cultural divide. Roberts and other USA horsemen have the use of a round pen in which the horse circles free of any rope. But circles none the less.

2. One of his arguments against single line lunging is that the horse learns to run round with its head poking out one way - but it all depends on how well the lunging is done. Correct lunging in a good cavesson as practised in classical dressage to train both horse and rider does not have this affect.

3. The arguments create the idea that people do one or the other, lunge or long rein. That's not true either. Some trainers, including my own, do both. But they are used for different things. So I became more open minded and learned both.

4. American trainers in general including Roberts or Mark Rashid do not like the UK habit of lunging a horse before it is ridden to work off some of its energy. You can imagine that going round and round as if on a treadmill is not kind to any horse, but whether the horse circles on one or two lines wont be relevant.

[Yann]

The objection is principally about the unnatural strain a lot of lunging puts on the horse's frame. Horses, especially smaller ones will often tip their nose out to counter the weight and tension on the single line,especially with a relatively heavy lunging cavesson on.

Circling on two lines doesn't have this effect any more than riding a circle does. Like like anything else if single line lunging is done correctly and in moderation it's hardly going to be a big issue. Most (IH) people aren't particularly pedantic about it, I was shown a version of single line lunging similar to the one CVB describes at an RA clinic and have used it myself.

Katewooten, I don't think Monty is going to buy many ranches on the strength of people going out and buying a second lunge line, do you? ;)

[Herbie's mummy]

Lunging is fine, if done properly:)

[india]

There's no way single line lungeing can be classed as cruel if done correctly and in moderation.

Pity the same can't be said of some of the gadgets Monty uses.:rolleyes:

[julia gulia]

I must say that I have trouble understanding the aggression towards Monty Robers and his so called Gadgets:confused: He is not one of the trainers that I "follow" but so what if he develops something that can help many people in the training of their horses? Kudos galore to people who don't believe that they need these gadgets but to some people they are useful and help their horse. If he "gave " these things away would you be happy? Live and let live .In my opinion, Just because one disagrees with a certain principal does not give one the right to degrade it and personally attack the person who created it. A technique is only as good as the person implementing it . I've seen many a person single line lunging and it has made me cringe. So in my opinion, if he has developed something that he considers a little more "fool proof" then the being who will benefit the most from it is the horse. Now, what is wrong with that? If you don't like what he has to say? Don't listen and do whatever you want to do:)

[Kate F.]

Spot on, Skib!!!:) I can well see there are pros and cons to lunging, like anything else, and a lot depends on how well it is done and in what context. Well done and appropriately used - very useful. Poorly done, not helpful and possibly counter productive, but to call it cruel? I really can't see how, unless it is done to extremes, but then the same would apply to the round pen, double lunging or and other exercise as anything done to excess and the point of exhaustion would be equally cruel. Can't really see why one line is cruel, but 2 aren't! :p

[Susara]

4. American trainers in general including Roberts or Mark Rashid do not like the UK habit of lunging a horse before it is ridden to work off some of its energy.

I think these really experienced riders sometimes forget that some things may be better in an ideal world, but not all of us have the skills to do things perfectly. Of course your horse should be well-mannered enough that exceess energy doesn't turn it dangerous. Of course your seat should be stable enough that you don't get thrown easily by an exited buck.

But what do you do if you are not good enough yet to handle these situations safely? Isn't it better for a nervous rider to longe her hotty a bit to settle him, than to put a severe bit in his mouth? Or to decide never venture outisde the arena? In another thread last week someone said she doesn't even trot her horse anymore because of fear.

Before I knew my newly backed horse well I'd always longe him a bit before getting on; it settled his concentration and allowed me to judge his mood.

The same holds for people that consider martingales evil; of course you should fix the fundamental problem why your horse is throwing his head. But if you're not good enough to handle dangerous head-throwing I'd say use the martingale in potentially dangerous situations **while you are working at solving the fundamental problem**.

I fully realise that these things should be temporary sollutions while you are working on both yourself and your horse. But one shouldn't denounce it just out of principle.

[Lili & Morgan]

I think these really experienced riders sometimes forget that some things may be better in an ideal world, but not all of us have the skills to do things perfectly. Of course your horse should be well-mannered enough that exceess energy doesn't turn it dangerous. Of course your seat should be stable enough that you don't get thrown easily by an exited buck.


Spot on Susara! I cannot agree with you more!! US horsemanship is diiferent from the Bristish to the continental. Why because of our climate, economical, and living conditions :rolleyes:

Kate : I love your post ( I am Muriel/Linda Baia)

Lunging with the nose tipping inside is WRONG!. I have also seen so many horses cantering with their head poking to the outside in around pen.

That is why I agree with Kate. trainer trying to sell more gadget.

[Skib]

Susara,
I hope I didnt mislead you on that. QAs far as Rashid goes both a lunge line and long reining have a place in backing and training a horse. If you read his books you will see that the rider's safety is paramount. Though being in the USA he has access to a round pen which many of his clients here in the UK dont.

BUT and it is a big but. Rashid's point is that in the USA he can leave his horses unridden all winter and when Spring comes load them and take them off to use in a demo. And they emerge from the trailer ready to ride.

That is very different from the regime in some UK livery yards. I visted one local yard and was told that clients' horses were always lunged before hacking, on safety grounds. And if I kept a horse there, they would insist on it for my own safety, of course.

This is a mystery that interests me. Because surely it must be related to what we feed our horses here in the UK?

[Wally]

If I single lunge, which is not often the LAST thing I want is for there to be pressure on the lunge and the horse pilling against it, all you do is make the horse fight and become unbalanced.

I tend to use a single line asa sort of long lead you see dogs being walked on. If the pony doesn't come back to me I can put a bit of pressure on the lunge and ask him to come to me, almost like round penning without the pen.

I long line far more, but lungeing is only cruel if done without care and attention to detail.

One of my pet hates if folk who run a horse round and round on a lunge before they ride it!

[Yann]

This is a mystery that interests me. Because surely it must be related to what we feed our horses here in the UK?

That's quite possibly part of it if people are religiously following the BHS feeding guide to the letter, the quantities of hard feed suggested even for a horse in medium work seem enormous for most horses I've dealt with. The other thing, and I may stand to be corrected on this, but I don't think it's as common for horses to be kept stabled 18 to 24 hours a day in North America either, my impression is ample turnout is more often the norm.

I must say that I have trouble understanding the aggression towards Monty Robers and his so called Gadgets

An easy target for the 'enlightened' ;) Whilst you may not like everything he does, how many people have found a way through to natural horsemanship because of him?

[nicolaj]

I was talking to the IH RA that came out to me and my horse back in July and we did discuss lunging. Interestingly, she didn't shout it down as the 'work of the devil' and did appreciate it had a use. Such as for riders having lunge lessons to improve their seat.

What she didn't approve of and we have all seen people doing it, are those that put their horse on the lunge and make it canter round in circles for ages. This just gets the horse fitter than the rider and so they need to do it for five more minutes every time! Then of course you have all the arguments of the strain it puts on the legs/tendons and also a heavy lunge cavesson tends to cause the horses head to lean to the inside.

If lunging is done properly, such as to help teach the horse transitions without the weight of a rider, to accept the contact of the bit with use of side reins and to learn how to carry themselves and develop the correct muscle then it's not a problem. But again only short bursts, is it 20 mins of lunging is the equivalent to 1 hours riding?

There is a lot of confusion, my RI suggests moving round the school with the horse and use the long sides, which I suppose for more advanced horses if you want to teach extension probably helps, whilsts others say I should stand still in the middle and just length out the line and the horse circles round me. This method however, sends me dizzy!:p

Like everything done with a horse it is an art form, both long-lining, lunging and lunging with two lines. It is amazing the amount of people who don't know how to lunge, (I include myself in that :o , but have sought help from my RI and had some lessons).

[lor]

I was at Towerlands and i didnt hear Mr Roberts say that single line lunging was cruel. I did hear him say that he thought it was an example of poor horsemanship and that he saw little benefit in it.

[katefarmer]

BUT and it is a big but. Rashid's point is that in the USA he can leave his horses unridden all winter and when Spring comes load them and take them off to use in a demo. And they emerge from the trailer ready to ride.



But you can bet your life he does a little groundwork before getting on - the equivalent of Parelli's "pre-flight checks" or whatever you want to call them - and that this is part of his whole routine!

Lunging to settle a horse down is just a very long and round-about (literally!:D ) way of achieving what can be done far more quickly and effectively with a few minutes well planned groundwork. Lunging doesn't really tire the horse out (well, it does a bit, but it will get fitter every time it is lunged before riding, so the tiring out factor is counter productive). What is really happening is that the handler starts to control the movement, direction and speed of the feet - and this has a settling and relaxing effect on the horse. (Hence the horse will settle faster with a good lunger than with someone holding the rope while the horse whizzes round.)

You can get the same effect in a much shorter space of time and much more effectively by using the steps that are really meaningful to the horse - the steps they use among themselves to defer to higher ranking horses. Once they do this, they start to accept your leadership and become calmer and more relaxed.

Rashid may not even really be aware he does this - it will be so much part of his whole relationship with the horse, he will be establishing these steps and his leadership from the moment he takes the horse from the field. This means that because this leadership is so much part of his whole being, by the time he taken the horses from the field and loaded them on the trailer, he has already achieved what some people will take half an hour of lunging per horse to achieve.

So, to go back to Susara's point about inexperienced riders (or come to that, experienced riders!), learning how to establish leadership in terms that make sense to the horse is a skill well worth acquiring and one that will put you in a position to have a much safer ride than running the horse around in circles in the hope you are tiring it out!

If one day we can cut all the "guru c**p" out of NH and get down to what's really happening and why, we'll find a wonderful range of tools to get straight to the horse's mind and tap into its natural instinct to cooperate and accept leadership. One benefit will be all that time taken lunging horses to "de-fizz" them can be replaced with a few minutes meaningful groundwork and horses focussed, relaxed and ready to ride.

Going back to original question, I still can't see lunging as cruel - just rather inefficient as a means to settle a horse down - there are better and quicker ways. However, as a skill and disipline in itself - as worthy as any other.

Kate
www.harmony-project.net

[Yann]

I was at Towerlands and i didnt hear Mr Roberts say that single line lunging was cruel. I did hear him say that he thought it was an example of poor horsemanship and that he saw little benefit in it.

Kate, sounds like Monty agrees with you ;) :D

[chikakane]

Blimey! Thanks for your replies everyone.
Katewooten, you spoke to the sceptic in me! Yes, after a while it I did feel a bit bombarded with the product placement! Thank you for making me laugh.

Yes, will check out the IH websites and see what they say.

Lor - he talked about the lunging thing at the end, as we were leaving and he was answering questions over the radio mic whilst signing his books and still working after about six hours or something!

As I recall, whenever I've had a lunge class it's always been with a slack lunge line, there's never been any pressure on the horse's nose and the lesson has always been short - 20 mins to half hour. But I'm pretty new to this game so what do I know?

Anyway, thanks so much for your replies, I know Monty can be a bit of a hot topic and he has his critics but I was still pretty impressed with his work.

[Yann]

I think the relentless product placement is part of the cultural divide too - I think americans possibly accept it as the norm whereas we brits tend to find it a bit crass (which is possibly justified :D ). I just tend to tune it out and watch the work with the horses :)

[nicolaj]

If one day we can cut all the "guru c**p" out of NH and get down to what's really happening and why, we'll find a wonderful range of tools to get straight to the horse's mind and tap into its natural instinct to cooperate and accept leadership. One benefit will be all that time taken lunging horses to "de-fizz" them can be replaced with a few minutes meaningful groundwork and horses focussed, relaxed and ready to ride.www.harmony-project.net

Well said!

[Lili & Morgan]

But again only short bursts, is it 20 mins of lunging is the equivalent to 1 hours riding?


I have heard this before. Do you know why?
I never lunge my horses more than 30 minutes the same with round penning. For lunging I use all the surface of the arena, for more straight lines and lots of transitions.

In the round pen, I work more inside turn and obediance type thing ...

KateFarmer : You can get the same effect in a much shorter space of time and much more effectively by using the steps that are really meaningful to the horse - the steps they use among themselves to defer to higher ranking horses. Once they do this, they start to accept your leadership and become calmer and more relaxed.

I am curious now... Can you give more examples? Porcupine game? side passing? etc ... ?

[Kate F.]

I am curious now... Can you give more examples? Porcupine game? side passing? etc ... ?

Partly - though the underlying steps are a bit more precise. These 2 links explain fully how these steps work among the herd members, and how we can emulate them

http://www.harmony-project.net/home.aspx?user=katefarmer#heirarchy

http://www.harmony-project.net/home.aspx?user=katefarmer#respect

then it all comes together in the "Waltz" - which if used and practised can save you all that lunging in just a few minutes!!

http://www.harmony-project.net/home.aspx?user=katefarmer#waltz

Rashid et. al. may call it all by other names and wrap it in diffferent exercises - but these steps turn up everywhere as they are the ones that have the major impact on the horse.

[galadriel]

I think the relentless product placement is part of the cultural divide too - I think americans possibly accept it as the norm whereas we brits tend to find it a bit crass (which is possibly justified :D ).

Oh, please, Americans can have better taste than that...the relentless product placement is considered pretty sleazy here too.

[clipa clopa]

Loved his buck stopper though!!

[Crystal Fire]

20-30 mins lunging? Don't you get bored? :)
I can sort of see what people like Monty are getting at, they don't think round and round in circles (however good the outline may be) is the best way to excercise a horse, physically or mentally. Mark Rashid has very little time for groundwork at all, I remember him talking about it at a clinic once. He asked who did groundwork before riding, and then commented that he didn't do that, he just rode.

[india]

Loved his buck stopper though!!
I think this is the first time I've heard someone admit to 'loving' the buckstopper!!
Shame on you.:mad:

[Herbie's mummy]

I'm not into all this NH ship stuff any way.
but the buckstopper is a load of crap...poor horses.

[jUmPingIsLifE]

lounging is HARD work for a horse, to many people tend to do it so the horse trots around in circles around and around and around and around..... until he tiers enough to get on and ride. These are mindless, pointless, stressful for the joints circles. First of all lounging a horse to make it tierd before you ride only works for a while, as the horse gets fitter and fitter you need to loung longer and longer to get that effect a lot of the time. soon you are lounging your horses 24 hours before your ride hoping they might break a sweat.

Add in frequent transitions, lengthening and shortening of stride, sideways movements, changes of direction and now you have the horse thinking, using is brain and starting to listen and respond to you. That i have no problem with:) I think this type of lounging is a very useful tool.

[jenren!!]

Blimey, and there's me thinking lunging was just part of a normal horses training :eek:.

Whatever we do, there's gonna be pros and cons. But before generalising, can we at least put the horse first? Lunging can work immensely on some horses - it really does depend on individual situations.

[KateWooten]

I think the relentless product placement is part of the cultural divide too - I think americans possibly accept it as the norm

Nope, over here, you rarely see Monty Roberts any more - hugely discredited and out of favor. I was lucky enough to catch him last year, at an expo where there were several other clinicians. I managed less than 10 minutes of him, I'm afraid. He just wasn't very good. There were far fewer in the audience for his show than the others. None of the otherclinicians mentioned a single product in their demos. Just dear old Monty. He's seen as a bit of a dinosaur over here.

[jenren!!]

Im actually quite suprised by him as i like Kelly Marks, and she was influenced by him wasnt she? She certainly doesnt do the same things.

[LindaAd]

Partly - though the underlying steps are a bit more precise. These 2 links explain fully how these steps work among the herd members, and how we can emulate them

http://www.harmony-project.net/home.aspx?user=katefarmer#heirarchy

http://www.harmony-project.net/home.aspx?user=katefarmer#respect

then it all comes together in the "Waltz" - which if used and practised can save you all that lunging in just a few minutes!!

http://www.harmony-project.net/home.aspx?user=katefarmer#waltz

Rashid et. al. may call it all by other names and wrap it in diffferent exercises - but these steps turn up everywhere as they are the ones that have the major impact on the horse.


This is interesting, Kate. I've read this a few times now, and I've been practising it.
Ginny will back away from me if I ask her to (say Back, point at the chest and walk towards her); she'll follow me on a loose rein, walk when I walk and speed up, slow down or stop when I do; she'll move her quarters away from me round in a circle.
She'll move her front end away too, but the finds this harder; I haven't tried asking her to move the front feet away diagonally, I'll try that tomorrow.

But where do you go from there? When you can do all the movements easily, what's next? Do you then go on to lunging?

Sorry if I've hijacked this thread - it seemed relevant ...

Oh, and by the way, did you know that you've spelled hierarchy wrong on your website, every time?:) :) :)

[LindaAd]

then it all comes together in the "Waltz" - which if used and practised can save you all that lunging in just a few minutes!!

.

But these won't help in fittening the horse, will they? Which I always thought was one of the aims in lunging. The other thing is that with lunging you can get the horse to do transitions and changes of pace, the way JiL says, and you can see how the horse works without you ...

My plan at the moment is to do groundwork first (the sort of obedience and respect stuff you're talking about) followed by lunging.

(My aims are to bring the horse back into work and to develop trust and respect so that I can ride her)

[Kate F.]

Hi Linda!

No - this type of groundwork is not intended to be fittening, more focussing. My point was that this is more effective and quicker to get the horse relaxed and focussed, which is what some people use lunging for. As you say, lunging is fittening, so if you lunge the horse to run off its energy, you're actually in an uphill sprial, as it will get fitter each time, and take longer to tire each time! ;)

Sounds like things are working well for you. Make sure you get the diagonal back-and-away step with the forehand - that's really important in establishing leadership. Also practise getting her to step back from you with you standing still (making your personal space bigger), and drawing her back to you (making it smaller) as well as her moving away as you move towards her (keeping the space the same).

After this, I then go on to desensitizing the blind spots (this is a rather more comprehensive version of what Parelli does in the "friendly game" - but the function is similar. "Friendly" is more of a human concept - what you're actually doing it getting the horse used to things moving in and out of the blind spots, which is extremely important preparation for riding. I then go to working from above, and do the whole thing again with myself at more or less riding height, but not sitting on the horse (working from a mounting block, for example) to get the horse used to me being above it's eye level. Also a critical point often not mentioned or appreciated!

I go through the whole lot with a young horse or new horse. After all this is established, I just do bits of it as re-inforcers on a relgular basis -- but the waltz, both on the ground and in the saddle (one rein stop, move the hindquarters over, move the forehand over) are pretty much fixed for every time I ride. (Our version of Parelli's pre-flight checks - and with much the same purpose.)

Lunging may or may not come into it. If the horse needs to be fittened, or if it has a weak frame or muscle form, lunging can be a very useful tool. If extra fitness is not really needed, I just go straight to riding and build up slowly from the saddle. I find the majority of horses that are turned out all day are already fit enough for to be ridden for short periods. If they are only on part turn out (perhaps a couple of hours a day, which I don't thing is enough, but is often the case) some lunging and/or liberty work can help build fitness - though care need to be taken not to let the horse "motor round and switch off". Even if lunging for fittening, there needs to be lots of transitions, changes of direction, changes of pattern etc. to keep the concentration. For me it is really important that the horse pays attention to me at all times while I am working with it. That's not to say it should be tense or over-alert - just aware of me, as it would be aware of the lead mare of its herd.

Hope that fills in some of the gaps! :D

Thanks for picking up the spellings! Should all be OK now - if the spell check was working properly. Sometimes it seems to miss things - but then it's an American spellcheck - and we all know about American spelling!! :D ;) It also has the annoying habit of trying to make me spell colour and behaviour without the "u" - which drives me nuts!:D

[Lili & Morgan]

20-30 mins lunging? Don't you get bored? :)


No because I am always asking for something, rythm, transition etc..

For horses on restricted turn out, lunging is also an oportunity to let go of the "fizz". Better have them silly on the lunge that under saddle.

But 24/7-turnout-living-in-a-herd-horse does not have this need, he'she has plenty oportunities to prance about :D

euuh KateF and KateFarmer is the same person .. just two different log names, am I right ? just a bit confusing :p :D

[Crystal Fire]

Mostly when I'm out and about and see people lunging their horses it's pretty mindless and basically the horse hammering round and round in circles changing pace and direction every now and then. In the really sad cases the handler is in the middle screaming voice commands at the horse, in between nattering on a mobile phone. I'm sure that's where the idea that lunging isn't good comes from. I can see that if you use a bit more imagination and skill it's completely different, but you here who do it must be in the minority - good for you!
Lunging so often seems stilted and mechanical. I work my horses on circles, but I'm looking for a flowing movement, and maybe we will work around a larger area, not just round and round in a 20m'ish circle. When we change direction the horse keeps moving it's feet for example.
Your waltz Kate F - that is the sort of thing that I and a lot of my mates would check out before riding, but it can happen on the way up from the paddock can't it? It's just to check out that your horse is "with you" and so ready to ride. I used to share a yard with some NH friends, and every time we were going out I'd bring my horse up about 15 minutes after them, because they wouldn't get on without going down to the arena and doing their 7 Games and Pre-Flight Checks before mounting :D I think that is where misunderstanding crept in with MarkR, he assumed anyone who said they did groundwork before getting on was using my friends' approach. Somebody said that they did groundwork to get their horse fit, and he looked blank and said something about riding doing that.

[Wally]

I tried an experiment yesterday with one of our more challenging , unhandled youngsters who is just begining to start to trust!

He is lungeing on one line my way, quite nicely now, only because he didn't take to two line lungeing very well and I have gone back a setp for him.

I then changed my stance and tequnique to the standard BHS manual way to lunge and he was SO UPSET I very quickly went back to my non confrontational way, he's a delicate little flower and I didn't want to spoil the session in the interests of experimentation.

AS for the buckstopper! don't get me started on that one. :( :(

[katefarmer]

euuh KateF and KateFarmer is the same person .. just two different log names, am I right ? just a bit confusing :p :D

Yes - I'm the same person! :D One log on at work, one at home - I'm not bad with horses - but have a terrible memory for passwords etc. so just leave both on "remember me" to save time! :o

Kate
www.harmony-project.net

[FRED]

Is single line lunging cruel?

Seen many Monty demos and he always says it is, its quiet a statement to say after you have just seen a horse galloping for dear life in the round pen dripping in sweat,even if you are the last chance, allegedly.


We do it with Dakota and its the way you go about things and length of time you do etc, its never to tire him out.
We don't have a round pen or school , just a large field and we can also work without a lunge line and never needed a fenced off area, working on circles at walk and trot, this speaks volumes about something, giving a horse time to work things out, when they get the plot they never forget.
When we sadled Dakota we had a few bucks, by the 3rd sadle fitting he has never bucked and can be lead safely on or off a line with his sadle on, just how unimportant are those old fashioned basics that in reality save so many problems before they happen, they cost very little to learn and require no great expense.

Please don't get me wrong though because I have seen some brilliant work at Monty demos.

[Crystal Fire]

That's how I feel about Monty demos Fred, some brilliant and some stuff that has made me wince a bit. That could be said for other demos I've been to as well ;)
Since I learnt a few things about moving horses around with energy it has never occured to me to lunge a horse to get them safe enough to ride. Control the feet, control the mind, control the energy and ride off into the sunset.

[levi1739]

KateF wrote,

we'll find a wonderful range of tools to get straight to the horse's mind and tap into its natural instinct to cooperate and accept leadership.

Yep, straight to the horses brain,. An old quote I enjoy is, "the way to a horses brain is through it's feet". It seem's so simple,

KateF, your page is a great resource for people to see. I sure hope everybody spends some time there, it's good stuff. :)

LindaAd, it sounds like you have your horse feet moving in the different directions which is a good beginning. Kate has suggested desensitizing excercises which is also a good idea. One of the things I emphasize in handling young horses is described on Linda's page as the "one rein stop".
She covers the same procedure again in introducing the bridle.

I do this simple excercise constantly with all our horses. It's much more than the one rein stop, and can be used so many different ways to reach a horses mind. By doing this flexing with our horses, we teach them to seperate the 'head and neck' from the rest of the body. This skill will help the horse in many different tasks, such as counter bending. It takes practice and good timing, but I think every horse should be taught to 'give' to pressure.

And, keeping on topic, it should be understood by a horse before they begin lunging.


Have fun, be safe

Jack

http://www.horsesplay.us/phpBB2/index.php

[Kate F.]

KateF, your page is a great resource for people to see. I sure hope everybody spends some time there, it's good stuff. :)

http://www.horsesplay.us/phpBB2/index.php

Thanks, Jack!!:)

[Tangle]

By doing this flexing with our horses, we teach them to seperate the 'head and neck' from the rest of the body. This skill will help the horse in many different tasks, such as counter bending.
I'm confused (sadly, easily done :o;)) - I've always understood that when you asked the horse to bend or counter bend you wanted that bend to be continuous along the entire spine, from poll to dock. I'm wondering if I'm misreading what you've written, as I was always taught it was incorrect for the horse to bend through the neck but not the back? :confused: :confused: :confused:

[LindaAd]

Hi Linda!

<snip>
Sounds like things are working well for you. Make sure you get the diagonal back-and-away step with the forehand - that's really important in establishing leadership. Also practise getting her to step back from you with you standing still (making your personal space bigger), and drawing her back to you (making it smaller) as well as her moving away as you move towards her (keeping the space the same).

After this, I then go on to desensitizing the blind spots (this is a rather more comprehensive version of what Parelli does in the "friendly game" - but the function is similar. "Friendly" is more of a human concept - what you're actually doing it getting the horse used to things moving in and out of the blind spots, which is extremely important preparation for riding. I then go to working from above, and do the whole thing again with myself at more or less riding height, but not sitting on the horse (working from a mounting block, for example) to get the horse used to me being above it's eye level. Also a critical point often not mentioned or appreciated!

<snip>

Thanks for picking up the spellings! Should all be OK now - if the spell check was working properly. Sometimes it seems to miss things - but then it's an American spellcheck - and we all know about American spelling!! :D ;) It also has the annoying habit of trying to make me spell colour and behaviour without the "u" - which drives me nuts!:D


Thanks for that very helpful reply, Kate. I think your website's wonderful too. I'll certainly work on that respect step of the front feet. Maybe she's reluctant to give me the last bit of respect; we've come a long, long way since I first realised that she was treating me like a foal, and ordering me out of her space with threats .... Getting her to step back from me is quite difficult - so far I haven't managed more than a step or two. Then she just stops and waits .... As for the desensitizing, I'm not sure if that's appropriate, becaue she's an old horse, well used to being ridden. Or do you think it's important to go through all the steps?



KateF wrote,
<snip>
One of the things I emphasize in handling young horses is described on Linda's page as the "one rein stop".
She covers the same procedure again in introducing the bridle.



er, that would be Kate's page! A great page and I wish it were mine, but it isn't ...
I know, just a typo, but it could confuse people ;)

[DeirdreBarlow]

What an interesting thread :) !

My two cents worth. . .
No, lunging's not cruel - as long as (like all things) it's done correctly and the "lunger" adapts to the needs of the individual horse.

[Kate F.]

so far I haven't managed more than a step or two. Then she just stops and waits .... As for the desensitizing, I'm not sure if that's appropriate, becaue she's an old horse, well used to being ridden. Or do you think it's important to go through all the steps?


For the backing up, do it one step at a time anyway. Have a pause between each step, then ask again. That way the horse gets lighter and lighter, and is always waiting for you to give the next signal. When you want several steps, the ask-pause-ask-pause sequence just get faster, but the pause is always there, even if very small, so the horse knows he has done the right thing.

Yes - do the desensitizing anyway. Even with older, already ridden horses there are often areas they are unhappy about, and they get much more focussed and settled when they are dealt with. A very common problem area is the right hip - especially in horses that tend to wander off as you're getting on, or won't stand still for mounting - but there can be others too. You'll find them this way if there are any!

Good luck!

[Zer0]

I don't think lunging is 'cruel' but I will say that I don't use it for my own reasons. Everytime I lunge May (I just take off her halter, and use hand signals) she doesn't do anything except go really fast. I have a feeling back at the show barn she was raised on, when she was lunged she had a whip crack right behind her to make her go faster. She used to be a driving horse (like the high stepping ones) so she had it all: martingales, harsh bits, weights on her feet, etc. I don't blame her for not liking to be lunged.

However, I don't like lunging anyway.
It makes a lot of horses bored -- they're just going around in a circle and their minds go on auto, I suppose ;) I'm not just repeating what Parelli says, this is from my own experiances. Sometimes when I go to the shows and watch horses being exercised, they have a dull look in their eyes as they canter, trot, or whatever around the ring. The horses that are being exercised by being ridden though, are alert because they have to think.
I also don't like if it's done improperly with no slack in the line. I can't imagine it's comfortable trotting and having your head in an awkward position.

I think lunging is only truely okay if you're doing it right and you're making the horse think...maybe by going over jumps or something like that. Also, if you need to give your horse exercise but can't ride him for reasons, lunging is okay as well but I find that taking your horse on a walk and leading him around at a trot is also fine :)

[levi1739]

I was always taught it was incorrect for the horse to bend through the neck but not the back?

Most people are taught that the sun rises in the east, sets in the west but that doesn't mean it's true. I do believe that if a horse can bend it's neck and back seperately, it surely can bend them both together. I want my horses to seperate every part of their body when I want, and also, put those parts together when I want.

Many people have different experiences of what "lunging" a horse is. I personally consider it lunging as soon as I attach a lead rope to my horse in the barn, maybe even sooner than that.;) To me lunging is what I do whenever I control my horses speed and direction. Whether I'm asking them to canter or stand ground tied, it's lunging to me. Same with leading them to the barn or pasture, if I'm in charge of the horses feet and on the ground, I'm lunging it, if in the saddle I'm ridin it. :)

Putting a horse on a rope and chasing it around in circles is probably what most people consider cruel and damaging to the horse. I find it interesting that Monty Roberts would condemn lunging while still using his 'squeeze chute' to confine a horse and not allow it to move while he scares it with the hair dryer. I might consider this to be cruel. :confused:

That 'chute confinement' method is amazingly similar to the old cowboy way of "tie em to a post and sack em out". Whatever Monty says, his methods are 'old history' in my horses lives. We always 'offer' ours the chance to 'move those feet' when they feel the need too. We just give them a little direction ;) and offer them opportunity. We would never confine a horse for desensitizing to anything.

Here's an example of another way -

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a49/levi1739/454x.jpg

No rope, no chute, just communication between horse and human :)

Thanks for pointing out my mistake LindaAd, it is Kate F's page I referred to.

http://www.harmony-project.net/home.aspx

This site is full of the ideas that I use and folks should read/study it carefully. It's impossible to 'speak horse' with the printed word, but these methods are sure successful in communicating with a horse. Do the things shown, over and over, and find out what happens. My own experience tells me what talking with the horse's 'thinking brain' makes possible.



Have fun, be safe

Jack

http://www.horsesplay.us/phpBB2/index.php

[jenren!!]

No, lunging isnt cruel, but long-reining is alot better IMO.

[LodgeRopes]

Thanks for a great thread, an enjoyable read.
only wish i could add something, but can't......:cool:

[LindaAd]

However, I don't like lunging anyway.
It makes a lot of horses bored -- they're just going around in a circle and their minds go on auto, I suppose ;) I'm not just repeating what Parelli says, this is from my own experiances. Sometimes when I go to the shows and watch horses being exercised, they have a dull look in their eyes as they canter, trot, or whatever around the ring.

I think lunging is only truely okay if you're doing it right and you're making the horse think...maybe by going over jumps or something like that. Also, if you need to give your horse exercise but can't ride him for reasons, lunging is okay as well but I find that taking your horse on a walk and leading him around at a trot is also fine :)


As several people have said, lunging isn't about just going around in a circle on autopilot , and you don't need jumps to make a horse think. With Gin I do lots of walk, halt, walk, trot - never more than half a circle without changing pace - and as she gets fitter I'll do canter too. The aim is to get her fitter, so I can start riding her, and to get her listening too.

I don't know if you can ask a horse to back on a lunge, though - and I don't know why you wouldn't?



For the backing up, do it one step at a time anyway. Have a pause between each step, then ask again. That way the horse gets lighter and lighter, and is always waiting for you to give the next signal. When you want several steps, the ask-pause-ask-pause sequence just get faster, but the pause is always there, even if very small, so the horse knows he has done the right thing.

Yes - do the desensitizing anyway. Even with older, already ridden horses there are often areas they are unhappy about, and they get much more focussed and settled when they are dealt with. A very common problem area is the right hip - especially in horses that tend to wander off as you're getting on, or won't stand still for mounting - but there can be others too. You'll find them this way if there are any!

Good luck!

Thanks for your very helpful replies, Kate. Now she's catching on - I've got her to do one step back without me going with her, so it's coming. As for the respect step, I've started a new thread about that, it's very interesting.

[CurlyWurlyRach]

wow! good thread :)
I always single lunge line...may buy myself another line and have a bash at two lines though!
I do admire Monty Roberts, and hes done some great work with racehorses thats changed the way some trainers think but devices like the Dually...cost a fortune. same with parelli. i think that if my horse is going to trust me then all i need is me and her. No rope or fancy headgear will make her respect me.