Which Training Method?? Serious help needed

[NoviceNic]

I bought a slow, lazy, bad mannered cob 2 yrs ago. I know have a forward going, strong, bad mannered cob who gets very anxious in new situations. He wouldnt mean to hurt me but he has no idea of his size and quite often barges past me. I am in a new yard and I have a fantastic RI that is teaching me how to progress and improve my riding dramatically. But I need to improve other areas especially his manners and herd, seperation issues.

The main problems for starters are:

1. Nervous in new areas and runs off at the first chance. Knows his strength and can run away and run to any horse he can get closest to. Leading him from stable to alloted individual grazing areas and vice versa are impossible without putting a bridle on him at present. He has started to bite me when I lead him to try and get away from me or show his displeasure at being led to his grazing area and not just let off at the main field gate.

2. When we get to local Shows. I am nervous, excited and completely making a hash of riding him about and enetering clear rounds. RI can help me with clear rounds and riding postion etc but need advise or help with keeping me calm and Captain calm. PLenty of RR rammed down mine and Captain throat to calm us both down.:o

3. Gets anxious when away from herd although on inidivual grazing and whinneys constantly, ignore leg aids and direction given by myself on solo hacks, at shows etc. Often bolts to first horse that canters passed him in opposite direction.

4. Has no respect for my space on the ground. He will barge passed when he is scared, when he sees another horse he can play with.

I am sure there is more but these are just for starters. Feel free to ask me any questions and I will reply honestly. I am not an expert and I know it. ;) Serious advise would be appreciated to get me started on helping Captain in these circumstances so we can continue our life's together safe and happy. Thank you. :)

[cloang]

definitely not experienced enough to give you advice but re the trying to bite you, when Auds did this to Clo we put her grazing muzzle on before leaving the yard to go to the paddocks:)

[teabiscuit]

what's changed in his life?

has this change in captain happened at a time when other changes were happening?

i'm thinking about the individual turn out, i know he can see and hear other horses, but maybe not being able to play, mutual groom and socialise is causing him to become insecure?

this is a suggestion not a criticism, :)

[KateWooten]

I answered on your other thread ... just wanted to say ... well, you know whtat I'd recommend - commit to a step-by-step program and just work through it, you'll be learning all the while, and he will be - build your relationship from the ground up. All these behaviours are just natural symptoms of the horse not really needing, or believing, that you are his natural born leader. He's just taking more of the responsibility for his own wellbeing, than you would like him to have !

Any of the NH-type, move your feet type of programs will work. Obviously I vote for Clinton Anderson via his book, but Parelli would work if you have excesses of cash to part with - or Kelly Marks if you have a local RA that can help ( I find the books a bit thin, lacking in any cohesive from the start sstep-by-step instruction - a bit too much just patchin over the holes for me - but would work if you have someone to take you through it).

[teabiscuit]

hmm Kate, he sounds a little out of sorts with himself too, may not all be down to this herd leader thing.

I truely believe it's worth considering if anything else could be unsettling him.

[NoviceNic]

His seperation anxiety happened 2 Summers ago when I took him to local shows for the first time. I managed it by carry on taking him and not being so competitive and just walking around with him all day. Ridden or on the ground. I stopped taking him with the herd members and take him on his own.

The leading issues have always been there. We then did a little groundwork ie. Walk on, stand , back and if he wasnt listening I make him turn tight circles. This he does very well in the manage but when I put it into practise when leading too and from stable he ignores me and whinneys to the other horses. I tell him off by smacking his chest if he is walking all over me and then growing in size and shouting at him. By not tolerating him not standing still whilst being tied up or when he is draggin me to another horse or to his grazing area. This time none of the above are working.

He moved yards in Sept this year. Firstly he went purely onto grass livery and was very well behaved considering none of mine or his creatures comforts were there. By that I mean no where to tie him for tacking or grooming. I had to lead him past the others as they ran up to say hello or put their ears back. He was nervous at first in case he got his bum bit. But he never ran off and never pushed me around.

Then in Oct I moved him onto the yard. We now have a stable, concreted yard, and own grazing. Creatures comforts and security of fencing around the yard but no fencing towards the walkway to the field. He has never got off at this point it is always in the field he runs off. Prior to the new yard he lived in a herd of 8 mixed sexes and was No 2 in the herd.

[KateWooten]

Yeah - I see the training method itself as a more 'holistic' thing .. that's really the point of the NH step-by-step things .. they work 'from the ground up'. I mean, I don't know anyone who has followed any of the programs who hasn't looked at the whole way their horse is kept - I certainly don't know an NH'er who would advocate individual turn-out for example. Natural herd living, with me as natural herd leader, is all part of the methodology ... as is barefoot, and the conditions necessary to make that work. I think you're right, something is not right with Captain's world ... but to develop an understanding of what's not working for him, to my mind, NoviceNic ccould do that by learning to read the horse better, understand how herds function better etc etc.

of course, everyone has their own circumstances and restrictions on what they can do so you have to pick and choose what bits will work for them .. but I think it's all there in the theory if you want it. The 'step-by-step' program approach just seems to me to be most effective in getting people starting thinking 'horse'.

[Yann]

It does very much sound like a lot of his issues relate to the company of other horses, or lack of it. Is he able to socialise with anyone over the fences where he is or are they always out of reach? If not it sounds like the failure to meet this basic need for company is stressing him out, and the answer might not be easy but it's obvious.

As far as his behaviour in general goes you need to become a reliable and effective leader for him. At the moment he is making all the decisions for himself, ideally you want him to feel able to look to you for guidance when he gets worried first rather than reacting instinctively. Doing NH type groundwork where he learns that you move his feet and he has to respect your personal space is very important in establishing yourself in that position for him, and it's certainly where I'd be looking to go with a horse like this once I'd sorted out any other obvious issues :)

[teabiscuit]

NN i don't know you or captain, from your posts you sound very capable and not the sort of person easily pushed around.

my gut feeling from miles away over the internet may be way out, but i feel that the separate grazing is causing him to be anxious and might be the root of his worsening behaviour.

as i say, could be miles away from what's going on.

[NoviceNic]

Got an EDT, proper back person and farrier booked. I am concerned he is tense and that if she can try and loosen any muscles up or pick up on any pain issues that I am not aware of then that is a bonus. :)

Sorry I am not sure if it is optimitrist that you call the back person. Just know that she is highly recommended qualified equine back person.:o

Anything I do will need to be self taught as we are too rural and current have OH out of work. I believe there is someone in the village who does Parelli. But I am not sure if they are qualified teacher or just someone who is futher on in the book, if you know what I mean.

I will stick to this plan so need something that I can get more support from you guys about...:)

[KateWooten]

I tell him off by smacking his chest if he is walking all over me and then growing in size and shouting at him.

Growing in size - generally being big sounds like the right sort of thing. Have you thought about, ok, offer him the chance to take one nice calm step forward on a loose line. Now he either chooses to do that - accepts your leadership, or he chooses not to - in which case, woo hoo, 5 minutes of good hard work, circling, changing direction, backing up moving sideways... on and on and on relentlessly... then 30 seconds standing still calm, soft eyes, breathing .... then offer him the chance to walk forward one step ... etc etc

Of course that only works if you can already ask him to circle, sidestep etc - which is why the step-by-step ness of a program is so good - it keeps you in a comfort zone, gradually extending the sphere of things you can do safely, calmly and in control.

[KateWooten]

Anything I do will need to be self taught as we are too rural

Hey ! me too ! In that case, I'd really recommend Clinton Anderson's book even more strongly cos it's so cheap, and can really get you started with a bunch of real easy to follow, just get out and start moving his feet type of exercises.

I just started the first of them yesteday with the new pony who has been wild, terrified and uncatchable for as long as anyone knows. Now she's turned out in my big field with the others and I'm 'confident' I can just go and walk up to her and catch her for the first time ..... Hmmmmmm..... watch me fall flat on my face right now :D

[NoviceNic]

He cant and wont be able to touch another horse till there are other liveries on the yard. It is a newly managed yard that is trying to fill up. The YO has her own horses but they are kept out 24/7 at the bottom of the field. If I put him in with her horses he would get stressed when I brought him into his stable overnight or during lousy weather. Plus I do give him a small amount of feed each night. Just for the sake of getting garlic into him as there are a huge amount of flies around his eyes and biting him at the moment.

2 weeks ago he settled. The factor that changed then was we loaned a pony for my daughter. They grazed at the side of each other and could touch and groom. Unfortunately this pony has gone home as my daughters interest dwindled. Since Saturday I have seen him lapse into his bad manners again. He is tarty around girls and clingy to geldings. Although when he grazes in a herd he is never with them always on the side lines. :confused:

[Yann]

If the company issue is a big part of the problem then it's going to be an uphill battle sorting everything else out.

If you're having to deal with this DIY then I'd personally be cautious about following something like Parelli without expert help, aside of the fact that it's a big financial commitment anyway. The ante is really upped in the early stages and if you don't get it quite right you risk making things even worse.

[KateWooten]

He is tarty around girls and clingy to geldings. Although when he grazes in a herd he is never with them always on the side lines
That's normal. If he's an insecure horse - they often seem to get a raw deal from others, yet can't bear to be parted from them. Likewise, a real confident self-reliant horse, can look like she couldn't care less about the others, when in reality she's keeping a careful lookout from a distance - overseeing things. It's just natural herd behaviour. Sounds like there's a limited amount you cna do about the circumstances ... but it's not a despairing situation .. the bigger, stronger leader you can become (in his mind) the more confidence he will have, the less his mood and behaviour will be influenced by his herd situation.

[teabiscuit]

thanks Yann, you put things so much better than me, i just get in a flap.

the herd leader respect thing is all well and good, if everything else is in place. however it is a theory, and theory is all well and good until you put it into practice.

admittedly it's a sound, well developed theory, but as we cannot actually get into the horses head, we cannot take it for granted that this is what's happening,

and it drives me up the wall when this is presented as the holy grail answer with no other thought being put into it from someone who hasn't even met the horse or handler.

if this not what is going on, you are not being fair to the horse or yourself, further more you're wasting your time and may make things worse.

[KateWooten]

... but we can't meet the horse or handler can we ? She's out there on her own, without a stack of money to call for an expert to come and tell her ... getting pulled and pushed all over the place, not knowing how to get this horse's attention back ... surely thinking it through from the horses' point of view is a good place to start ? yes, upping the ante, parelli-wise can be dangerous - so can getting dragged all over the place by a big horse. And she's not quite going it alone - shes got all the rest of us here.

[Mehitabel]

i think that rather than 'a training method' to follow, you need to really understand what he is doing, what he is trying to achieve by doing it, and how you can effectively keep yourself safe and turn the behaviour patterns around. you need to know how his mind works and how to communicate with him in ways he understands and wil respect. this is the theory behind all the training methods and they all act on the same principles.
they are all manifestations of the same root cause - so you can treat the symptoms until the cows come home but if you don; sort out the cause you will never stop them.

1. Nervous in new areas and runs off at the first chance. Knows his strength and can run away and run to any horse he can get closest to. Leading him from stable to alloted individual grazing areas and vice versa are impossible without putting a bridle on him at present. He has started to bite me when I lead him to try and get away from me or show his displeasure at being led to his grazing area and not just let off at the main field gate.

so here, he is craving company of other horses - you are not 'good enough' for him. rinzarider who sometimes posts on here says 'the horse isn't on its own, it's with me and i am good enough company for any horse' - and she is right. you need to get his focus on you and teach him that you are his company andwith you he is safe - this is the important bit.

2. When we get to local Shows. I am nervous, excited and completely making a hash of riding him about and enetering clear rounds. RI can help me with clear rounds and riding postion etc but need advise or help with keeping me calm and Captain calm. PLenty of RR rammed down mine and Captain throat to calm us both down.

this is a problem with you, not with him. he cannot take confidence from you unless you have it yourself - he wants a leader, and you are not being one for him in this situation. again, he needs to feel that you can keep him safe.

3. Gets anxious when away from herd although on inidivual grazing and whinneys constantly, ignore leg aids and direction given by myself on solo hacks, at shows etc. Often bolts to first horse that canters passed him in opposite direction.

exactly the same -you are not good enough company, he does not feel he canrelax unless he is with another horse.

4. Has no respect for my space on the ground. He will barge passed when he is scared, when he sees another horse he can play with.

and again - he is in charge, he is not seeing you as the person who will make everything ok. he doesn't feel he can rely on you.

so, you need to change that view of you that he has. he needs to (in no particular order) 1) know that when you are around you are the boss and he must always have some attention on you. 2) know that he never ever invades your space no matter what else is going on. 3) know that when you are with him he has no need to worry about keeping himself safe - that is your job and he can concentrate on what you ask, not on the outside world. you will not let anything dreadful happen to him.

so - have a think and see what you think would be the first step to any of these things. what you need to do to teach him that, which you might want to work on first, and which would come as a result of the others. also think about what kind of behaviour from you will give him these messages ,and what message he is getting from you at the minute.
think both on the 'meta' level, in terms of attitude and expectations, and on the practical level - how you make sure that you don't carry on giving him the wrong messages and what you need to change on a physical and practical level.

post what you think, and we can discuss it and break it down. once you understand the principles, the training methods are much of a muchness really.

[Peace]

2 weeks ago he settled. The factor that changed then was we loaned a pony for my daughter. They grazed at the side of each other and could touch and groom. Unfortunately this pony has gone home as my daughters interest dwindled. Since Saturday I have seen him lapse into his bad manners again. He is tarty around girls and clingy to geldings.

Dang - the individual grazing arrangement sure sounds like the problem then, doesn't it. And the flies, too - they always put Quanah in a bad mood. There's no way to change this?

[Mehitabel]

i'd missed that he is on individual turnout. this can be a huge factor - most horses will fret when not getting any equine company at all, and while you must maintain basic manners and personal space, it is unreasonable to expect him to be happy alone. can he not go out 24/7 until other liveries come? he is not a delicate stick-legged pony, is he - he ought ot cope out happily.

while i will never tolerate being run over, i would not expect a happy and willing horse if it was stabled alone and turned out alone and it would be a matter of urgency on the level of needing veterinary attention to get him some company. i'd cut a fair amount of slack on the manners i expected if the hrose was alone 24/7 and *never* had a friend. if it is for the hour a day i want to ride or a day at a show going back to friends that is a different kettle of fish.

[NoviceNic]

I am still digesting what you have put Mehitmabel. Thank you..

When I say that he is stabled alone. I mean in the sense that I bring him in and out alone, when I want to and dont always turn up at the same time as others. So we are coming in and out on our own. There is a pony that is stabled 24/7 due to Laminitis. She is stabled next door to him and then Thomas is stabled on lousy weather days. Both horses he can see. He likes Thomas. Thomas is the pony he was grazed next to. They could stand by each other and touch over the electric fence but Captain has been moved to the DIY section. It is a 5 acre field. Of which he has 3 sections that he is turned onto. These are in the middle of the field. An old pony is turned out and has the run of the 5 acre field. Another cob is restriceted by fencing at the far end of the field. So he can touch the old pony if the old pony wants to stand near him but Captain tendds to tell him to go away from his patch. So Choco stays clear.

[Peace]

i'd missed that he is on individual turnout. this can be a huge factor - most horses will fret when not getting any equine company at all,

Ain't it the truth. My neighbor has a gelding she keeps completely alone - no other horses on the property. He's a basically nice person, but is more touchy-feely than I really like half-ton animals to be. And so spooky that he'll run you slap over in a heartbeat. Oddly enough, this same gelding used to board at my yard, back in the day when I was terrified of almost everything equine. But back when he had horse company he was so calm that I never minded leading him in to supper or going into the stall with him.

She does trail ride him often in company though. And you've never seen an easier horse to load - he fairly leaps into the trailer, since he associates it with going to see other horses.

[NoviceNic]

I agree that I am not giving off the correct and constant signals that I should be. i also am struggling to read whether he is really scared or taking the piddle. :confused: When he bolts home is it because I am tense or is it because the bird that flies out of the tree has just scared him. How long is a piece of string?? Where do I start?? Should I look at changing my lessons to ridden and groundwork.. Therefore keeping an important balance on both aspects of my care and love for him. Do Kelly Marks RA's do ridden and ground lessons??

[Jessey]

I have to agree, its going to be really hard for you to work with him while he is already on 'red alert' because he is almost always alone and the knock on effects from that are having terrible effects on him, he won't be sleeping properly (so is probably grumpy and more 'spooky' and nervous cause he is not really 'with it') and the stress could also be causing things like stomach ulcers or vices that will stay with him long term.

I know it would be a pain but it sounds like it would be best right now if he went out 24/7 with the other horses in the big field, until other liveries arrive on the yard.

You could bring him to his stable daily to have his feed, this would also serve as time training him that being alone with you is ok and a good experiance, gradually the more you do it the better he will get (as he realises he always gets to return to his buddies) then you can seriously start work on his respect for you and behaving better during your time. Then as other liveries arrive you could return to stabling with their horses.

Best of luck its a tough one.

ETA: Scrap all that then, didn't realise there were others around :rolleyes: perhaps talking to one of the other owners and seeing if he could graze with one of the others would be the best plan right now?

[Mehitabel]

I agree that I am not giving off the correct and constant signals that I should be. i also am struggling to read whether he is really scared or taking the piddle. :confused: When he bolts home is it because I am tense or is it because the bird that flies out of the tree has just scared him. How long is a piece of string?? Where do I start?? Should I look at changing my lessons to ridden and groundwork.. Therefore keeping an important balance on both aspects of my care and love for him. Do Kelly Marks RA's do ridden and ground lessons??

red bit - controversially, i don't think it really matters at this stage. he must not do it, whatever the situation. until we get to things like fleeing a burning stable - he stays put and he controls himself and waits for you to take the lead. however frightened he may be, he must learn to look to you to 'make it better' and not think 'well, sod her, i'm looking after myself and i'm outta here!' ;) and if he is takgin the pee, that must stop too.

blue bit - look to yourself first - are you tense, in that situation? if you are - is your tension enough of an excuse for an adult horse to flee for home? is it reasonable response for him to bolt home because of a momentary fright from a bird? personally, for an adult, experienced horse, i say no. spook, fair enoguh - but spinning , bolting etc all unacceptable.

green bit - start with your first sentence - you know what is wrong, with regards to how you act round him. thisi the only thing you can change directly - your behaviour. to do that, you need to know how you need to be acting, and what act by you will have what effect on him. the small things do matter enormously wih horses - they're like children in that respect. if you let the little things slide, letting them eat while being led or ridden, letting them fidget, letting them push past you - they then start trying the big things. if you come down like a ton of brick on the little things, they think 'well, if she won't even let me start eating my haynet before she is out of the ay, she sure won't let me barge her to the floor to get at that succulent grass so i won't bother'.

it is probably easier to start on the floor - but every second does count. it might be something as simple as getting your instructor to watch you bring him in, brush and tack up, and get on - she can then show you where you are backing off where you ought to be asserting yourself, where he is sneakily testing you, etc. any instoructor ought to be able to do what you need you don't necessarily need an RA, although they may have better tools for transferring the skills to you. i do a fair bit of groundwork teaching - nothing fancy, no specific exercises, just watching the owner do their normal stuff and making sure they are always sending the right messages.

does the horse want to be in charge?
is being herd leader a pleasant thing, or a stressful thing?
do horses really want an easy life where they know what is expected?
what is the horse's priority?

you'll understand better if you come up with the answers yourself - or at least i always absorb things better if i've worked them out rather than been told.

[LindaAd]

I agree with what's been said - it sounds to me as if he's stressed from moving, and from having his companion taken away, and from being on his own.

Is there any chance that he could go out with the other horses? I'm not very clear in my own mind about your arrangements (sorry, that's my fault, not yours), but could he go in with the other cob?

Also, I'd cut his feed right down to nothing except hay when he's in. If he has to have garlic, give it to him in an apple or something like that. Whatever you're feeding him could be giving him just a bit more energy than he needs.

Barney was just like that when I first got him, stressy, bargy, spooky on rides, and you couldn't tie him up because he'd just smash the gate, the fence, whatever ... Wouldn't stand for the farrier, who obviously thought I'd completely overhorsed myself. It was just newness. He'd been fairly well-mannered in his old home, but they did say he needed a firm hand, and I think maybe they felt they had tp be very strong with him. After I'd had him six months or so he was totally reformed.

I'm sorry, I wish I could remember how I got him to change. I know I always led him in a bridle, never a headcollar, and carried a stick. Insisted that he respect my space, by growling at him. Made him back two steps whenever I gave him a titbit. Just rode him through it ... If he took off out on a ride - he never went far or fast, but you'd find yourself cantering down the road when you thought you were walking - I learned just to sit there and stop him with my legs and seat, if you were too strong on the reins, he'd fuss and dance. And I did have lessons on him, but they were about riding, not groundwork. But no magic, no method, just always making sure I was in control of him and being as consistent as I could. I think it's like Mehitabel said - if you always insist on the little things, the big things sort themselves out.

You will get there!

[KateWooten]

I think that the best way to start to really understand what he is doing, what he is trying to achieve by doing it, and how you can effectively keep yourself safe and turn the behaviour patterns around ... is by following the advice of someone who has a proven track record in educating horse owners to do just that ! If someone has already thought this through, and reached success with a thousand owners, and laid it out for you to follow, step by step, "what does it mean when my horse does this?" "What does it mean when his ears do that ?"... "what can I actually do to start gaining his respect and to get him out of my space, right now?" ... if someone has laid all that out for you, in book form, then surely, it's a good place to start ? It's all very well to understand on a hand-wavy level why he's behaving in a certyain way ... but what, actually, should she do about it, right now ?

Right now, I think, she should keep herself safe and find a way to avoid leading him to the field, until she's had a good chance to step away from it, and lay down the ground rules with him. I think, she should be playing some version of the hula hoop game with him, for something like 10 minutes a time, something like as often as possible - 5 times a day. That's what I think because that's what I see working. But There's so much more to it than that ... and it's already been said a gazillion times ... and it's the same method that you get on Kate Farmer's site... and in Parelli expensive tapes... and from and RA .... it's the same thing ! Sure if you have been with horses all your life all this stuff is in your blood, but for those of us mere mortals returning to horses later in life ... where do we start ? How do we find out what, actually, to do ? For me, and thousands of others, buying a book or a dvd that will show us, is a really good way to figure out what we need to do.

[Mehitabel]

my point was though, that it doesn't matter which training method is followed - or even if it's just her regular instructor who comes and says 'when he does this, do that' or 'he is doing this because you did X - do Y instead and he will do Z.'
parelli, monty roberts, mark rashid - whatever - they all work on the same principles and ultimately understanding those principles will stand nic in good stead once she is past the 'for x, do y stage. and the for x do y stage is achievable with any method or no specific one - i always think eyes on the ground right there, to say 'now, now do this' are more effective than a book and trying to remember the book when you're at the yard.

[Lili & Morgan]

and it's the same method that you get on Kate Farmer's site... and in Parelli expensive tapes... and from and RA .... it's the same thing ! Sure if you have been with horses all your life all this stuff is in your blood, but for those of us mere mortals returning to horses later in life ... where do we start ? How do we find out what, actually, to do ? For me, and thousands of others, buying a book or a dvd that will show us, is a really good way to figure out what we need to do.

Hear, Hear ! kate Wooten is 100% right. what will cost you to buy CA's book? It is the cheaper on the market. It is rought, but you get the jest of it.... and it works ! Hourrah!

Also educate yourself reading KateFarmer's website ... it is FREE!

As the other KateW said it is more or less the same story

Good luck , it is not that difficult, and I know because 1 year 1/2 ago I had a monster who walked on two legs, but it was a horse :D

Have faith in yourself, you will have soon the best behaved cob in the 'hood :cool:

[KateWooten]

my point was though, that it doesn't matter which training method is followed... ahh, phew ... we're saying the same thing then - I'd hate to be disagreeing with Mehitabel !! I was also just saying that CA's is the cheapest route I've found to understanding why horses 'do' stuff.

Kate p.s. Hi Muriel :waves: How's Morgan ?

[NoviceNic]

Plan A - Just spoke to YO. She has a contact who does groundwork using different methods. Book a lesson with said lady. See how we get on and then jiggle finances around to make sure I can afford livery, riding and groundwork lessons...

For the immediate future use bridle to lead my cob around and look him in the eye everytime I tell him off. Ask him to stand and wait everytime I get to the gate. Everytime I take him out of the stable only let him walk out when I ask him to. Everytime he rushes in walk to the field circle him very tightly and make him walk backwards until he has his full attention on me. Insist on good manners every day. :mad:

I think that I will look at reading as much as I can and anything that I cant make sense of that is when I will call said lady out for back up. What do you think?? Good idea so far or are there floors to plan A???

[Mehitabel]

plan A sounds cracking. remember the consistency - once you have had the initial lessons on how exactly to insist, you must keep it up. keep us posted! you may find you only need one session, to give you the tools - if you take it in and are able to maintain the attitude, that may well be all that is needed.

[levi1739]

The new location, herdmates, fear or attitude, etc., are all just distractions for you and the horse. Forget em and take charge of your horses feet and then his brain.

Serious advise would be appreciated to get me started on helping Captain in these circumstances so we can continue our life's together safe and happy. Thank you.

I believe that Clinton Anderson's dvd series, "Lunging for Respect - gaining your horses respect on the ground", should be a mandatory purchase for anybody having trouble controlling their horse. It's money well spent, not cheap, much less expensive than not knowing. :)

Here's a link to some of his articles, you can also reach his dvd selection from here. (His undersaddle series is also excellent"

http://www.downunderhorsemanship.com/articles.html

You don't need the sticks, ropes, halters, just the information that he provides in his teaching materials. It's good, easily understood, gives examples with different horses, and best of all

It works,


Have fun, be safe

Jack

[Yann]

Do Kelly Marks RA's do ridden and ground lessons??


They all do groundwork and some do ridden as well. Garry Bosworth, who's the most local to you only does the stuff on the ground. I do personally think there would be a lot of value in having a session with him, you can read all the books in the world but there's no substitute for seeing things first hand and getting expert feedback on your own actions and technique. He's a lovely bloke too, not in the least bit scary :)

I really would consider trying to address the separation anxiety issues somehow though, if Captain's stressed out then you're always going to be fighting an uphill battle to get through to him.

[teabiscuit]

The new location, herdmates, fear or attitude, etc., are all just distractions for you and the horse. Forget em and take charge of your horses feet and then his brain.






ya see i favour a more holistic approach. means you have to think a bit though :rolleyes:

also means you have more trouble sprouting all the in lingo that you read in last night's favourite book, shucks!

[Yann]

The new location, herdmates, fear or attitude, etc., are all just distractions for you and the horse. Forget em and take charge of your horses feet and then his brain.

Again we're in full agreement teabiscuit ;) Training the horse like this without looking at the bigger picture can amount to bullying and domination. I personally wouldn't try and do anything with a stressed out horse if half its problems stemmed from the way it was being kept.

Nic, plan A sounds good to me too. All I'd add is that it might be sensible to find out a bit more about the background of and methods used by this trainer and make sure you're happy with her approach. There can be a wide amount of variation in the way people apply the same principles, which is why I often recommend an RA as you generally know what you're going to get :)

[Mehitabel]

i'm with yann and teabiscuit too. why make it harder for yourself by starting work with a horse who is anxious and upset and lonely? also, once he is not craving company many of the issues might disappear. in which case i'd still recommend having some groundwork lessons to make sure it doesn't become habit and allow you to keep control of the situation, but the urgency would be gone which would 1) make life much more pleasant and 2) allow you to do plenty of research and get the theory straight in your head.

as i have said before - i do expect my commands to be obeyed, but in order for that to happen i must make sure my commands are reasonable. while i inisist on my safety whatever the circumstances, i don;t think it is a reasonable command to make a lonely horse have perfect mannes.

being able to keep a horse with solo turnout is a bonus, not to be expected. many are miserable and tense in that situation.

[NoviceNic]

Nic, plan A sounds good to me too. All I'd add is that it might be sensible to find out a bit more about the background of and methods used by this trainer and make sure you're happy with her approach. There can be a wide amount of variation in the way people apply the same principles, which is why I often recommend an RA as you generally know what you're going to get :)

Will defiantely find out more about the trainer's background and if she has any training. Dont just want any Jo Blogs that has read the book. I need to do this right. What concerns me though is the YO wont give me the contact details of the trainer so I can ring her and talk to her. The YO wants to do all the organising. My fear of that is that it is all 3rd party.

How do I deal with the seperation anxiety when I cant put him in with others. As the grazing is on in dividual turnout. I could speak to the YO and see if Captain could graze with her old boy for a while but then you are open to vet bills if there are any problems with them falling out..

[Mehitabel]

well, ultimately you may have to move, if there is never going to be scope for him to be out with friends. being able to cope alone is a bonus, and not something we can expect from every horse. if captain cannot settle alone then he needs company, and if you can't afford to get him a purpose-built companion then he needs a yard with herded turnout.

and it is dodgy for you to be liable for vet bills - horses do injure each other, it happens. unles captain is a known bully then i do not think it is reasonable for you to pay for vet fees incurred by him. if it is policy at the yard i'd think even harder about moving.

[NoviceNic]

Can I ask another question?? Is it ridiuclous for a horse to be scared of puddles?? Captain seems to be. I dont mean that he will walk around them. He WILL NOT stand in a puddle. He will do anything to get out of the way of a puddle. I took him on a hack once and jumped off when I saw a puddle. I played a little in the puddle and re-assured him that it wasnt a monster. He just stood and snorted and shook. I gave him a hug and got back on. He was then all dancy and strong and bolted home without warning. The reason why I ask this is because the field entrance as a huge puddle. Knee deep.. He gets all silly at the gate because of the puddle then because of the other horses and thus runs. My YO thinks he is taking the piddle with the puddle but I do truly believe he is scared by them.

How much do I wish I could win the lottery at the weekend and buy my own little patch of grass for Captain. Thus oblitorating any yard rules. :D

[Mehitabel]

it is understandable, but equally i make all mine go through them.

the horse is thinking 'i don't know what the bottom is like, i might get stuck, and i don't know how deep it is' - so it is quite a 'leap of faith' for them to stomp into a puddle with no hesitation on the rider's say-so. so given your other problems with him, i can see why he won't go in them.

i never go through puddles where i don't know the bottom or depth - but on our regular hacking routes i insist on going through not round them. for him not to follow you in is ridiculous though!

[teabiscuit]

first of all, echo all of Mehitable and Yann's advice, as you would expect :)

no it isn't ridiculous in my opinion for a horse to be scared of puddles. there's an interesting book by Temple Grandin called "Animals in Translation" and this explains why horses are scared of such foolish things.

it's the same reason that my mare won't go in her stable if the stable light is on in the dark, if it has rained.
the light bouncing off the rain makes her think that she is stepping on to a different surface, one that she doesn't know is safe.
Also she doesn't know that the shiny reflections that move are just that, she interprets them as something more sinister.

This response is hardwired into her brain by evolution, she is a prey animal that runs from just about anything that might hurt her so she suspects anything until she is convinced it's safe.
She accepts me as the boss in the relationship and respects my space etc etc, but this response to the wet surface originates in the most primitive part of her brain, like it does in your brain when you respond to a threat without even thinking about it. so this herd leader thing is useless in this case.

after the initail response, tehn i can use my influence and say hey it's ok trust me, but if the fear is really embedded she won't listen, self preservation kicks in.

sounds like captain has a strong aversion to puddles that will take time and lots of reassurance from you to overcome, or he just may not like getting his feet wet :D

if you're "in the moment", you have more chance of figuring out what's going on, it's so hard to give advice on this sort of thing from afar.

what are you're gut instincts about it? trust them i reckon.

[KateWooten]

Will defiantely find out more about the trainer's background and if she has any training. Dont just want any Jo Blogs that has read the book. I need to do this right. What concerns me though is the YO wont give me the contact details of the trainer so I can ring her and talk to her.

There are just too many half-baked 'think themselves a trainer' about (yes, I did say that, with a good sense of the irony of it) ... to even consider going with a trainer whose credentials and results you can't verify. You already can see flaws in the YO's horse understanding ... she's an advocate of isolation for a herd animal for a start - I do understand that you can't take the recommendation of someone just off the internet because they might turn out to be a crank ... but to take direction from the YO - who you already know is way off the mark ? That's just asking for trouble. IMO.

I just don't get the big fear about having learnt something from a book ! If we all had the greatest trainers available locally, everything would be perfect - but we don't. We have to get the information from somewhere - why not look to books ? Why not look to trainers who are achieving great things with people ? Why not look to people who have an established reputation - and see what you can learn from them. If nothing else it sheds light on the 'common sense rhetoric' - that usually starts with 'I've had horses all my life and this is how we've always done it' of everyone's local resident experts.

teabiscuit - you seem to have a very dim view of Jack's ( and my ) approach. This remark also means you have more trouble sprouting all the in lingo that you read in last night's favourite book, shucks! is very catty. I have never heard Jack "sprouting (sic) all the in lingo" as you so eloquently put it. He merely gains the horse's respect, by moving their feet. You, of course, can do that - No doubt you were born with the ability. But what about us mortals who weren't ? You recommend we find and pay (a considerable sum more than $20 that's for sure) a local expert of dubious qualification, who's reputation we are unable to verify - because that is the reality for many of us, despite what you all seem to think with your RA's all living conveniently just around the corner. How about people who do not have Hundreds to spend on one-to-one lessons .... you really do not think there is NO value to be had from reading around the subject - giving yourself time to mull things over every evening... you really don't think people get more out of the limited time available to them from their expensive personal trainer if they have been able to put the whole training process into a realistic perspective by reading (any one of thousands of available) roadmaps already developed ?

Freaking weird then that 'books' didn't die out a thousand years ago since there's no value in them.

[teabiscuit]

-
teabiscuit - you seem to have a very dim view of Jack's ( and my ) approach. This remark is very catty. .

cheers Kate ;)
(about the catty complement )

no problems with the approach in the right context.

not convinced about your narrow minded refusal to think further about what other aspects in the horses life may be causing the problems.

not wishing to hi jack this thread any further so will retire gracefully from the fray.

ta ta

ETA where did i recommend hiring any trainer in this discussion? if ya can find where please let me know.;)

[KateWooten]

No, if you bothered to read without prejudice what I in fact say, rather than what you think I say .... it is not possible IMO to follow any one of the well-known NH type of trainers courses/books/literature, and not come to a very deep understanding of what it is to be a horse in a man's world. From there, it's very easy (with hindsight) to see how and where our keeping of the horse in artificial ways contributes to his behaviour.

I don't know why you think it's a fight. We're all saying the same thing. The only difference with what jack and me say, and you are all saying is 1) it IS possible to get this deep understanding starting by reading books and 2) FIRST THINGS FIRST - get him out of your space - to give you time and space to sort out the long term.

[Peace]

Criminy.:rolleyes: I remember now why I stay out of the NH forum most of the time.

Anyway, NoviceNic, I too think Plan A sounds good. Although I wouldn't like being dependent on the YO as a go-between either. Why do you suppose she insists on that?

[levi1739]

not wishing to hi jack this thread any further so will retire gracefully from the fray.

ta ta

"hi teabisquit" :) , yep I read a lot of books, don't you?

Nic, Mehitabal has broken down some ideas pretty well in her posts. The most important thing she mentioned (IMO) is to focus on yourself. There's a book entitled "There are no problem horses" which quite accurately points out that most problems we have are our own fault, not the horses.

The approach you are now taking sounds pretty good. You mention that whenever the horse (what's his name/age etc.?) tries to "rush ahead", you plan on circling and then backing him up. That's a very good approach and should yield you results if you follow it consistantly. I might suggest that you begin the circling before he acts up, keep him (and you) so busy with the circling and backing that you are focused on each other, not the surrounding distractions. ie, Keep that horses feet busy, constantly for now.

Crossing obstacles like puddles can be a real challange for horse and rider. When leading be very careful that the horse doesn't "jump on top of you" or "kick you as he passes by". Horses are frightful about most things, water and mud amongst them. An understanding handler can usually help them overcome those fears pretty quickly. Don't get into a battle with the horse, these things can be very challanging for the inexperienced handler.

Here's My Mare, she won't step in a puddle either. It's one quirk/hole I allow her to keep. I'm her leader but I listen to her opinions always. If it's not neccessary to get her feet wet, she doesn't have to. :) If I decide we 'have to', then wet we get. ;)

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a49/levi1739/dcfc0016.jpg

She's taught me that we have to be careful though. Tells me that horses, like some humans, can get stuck in the mud.

Herd behavior is to be found everywhere, especially internet forums. ;)


Have fun, be safe

Jack

http://www.horsesplay.us/phpBB2/index.php

[Mehitabel]

I don't know why you think it's a fight. We're all saying the same thing. The only difference with what jack and me say, and you are all saying is 1) it IS possible to get this deep understanding starting by reading books and 2) FIRST THINGS FIRST - get him out of your space - to give you time and space to sort out the long term.

i quite agree with your 2). i think where we might be differing is that i think books are a longer-term thing - i don't think reading, and then having to try to put that into practice from scratch, is the best way to go about number 2. i think books are a very valuable resource for the longer-term understanding.

in my experience, the first time you try something you've only read about, things probably don't go as they should do immediately - and then you need to stop, go back to the book, figure out what is going wrong and try again. not enormously practical in this situation as captain is towing poor nic to the field! so for the first 'offensive' i'd want someone there to say 'now!' and so on.
when i was trying out mary wanless techniques, bearing down, etc, i had the book on the arena fence and had to keep stopping, referring to it and trying again. luckily petal doesn't mind me reading on her back!


i would not want to start to try to turn around a dominant bargey horse with only book-knowledge - because when you start pushing back, they tend to call your bluff, see how much you really mean it - and you need to know what is appropriate and how to escalate, change the subject, etc, in a split second. you need your reactions correcting, your good bits reaffirming, you need someone to point out to you what is happening stride by stride. because if you get it wrong, if you push too hard too fast, or the horse retaliates excessively, it can get dangerous, and if you're alone with only what you've read - it is unlikely to work. IMO that first redressing of the 'power balance' is much, much better done with someone there for support and guidance. then once you have the measure of how far he will push you, when he will go 'alright then, you know what you're on about' and what you have to do, then by all means read, learn the theory, i thinkthat is vastly important.

[EnduranceAli]

Haven't read this thread all the way through, but all I can say is that Parelli is money well worth spending (I have just started Level 1 - and it is fantastic - should have found this years ago, it just makes so much sense and is fun as well :) ).

[julia gulia]

I did read through the whole thread :)
I agree with Teabiscuit and Yann. I would first address the turnout issue. I beleive that horses have basic needs...turnout and friends being very high on their list of priorities. Surely if you deal with this issue first and then look towards strengthening your relationship with him, you will be setting him up for success rather than failure. I would start with building block number one and then worry about building block number two. Keep it simple:)

[levi1739]

From NoviceNics original post.

I bought a slow, lazy, bad mannered cob 2 yrs ago.

He wouldnt mean to hurt me but

quite often barges past me.

fantastic RI that is teaching me how to progress and improve my riding dramatically.

Leading him from stable to alloted individual grazing areas and vice versa are impossible

He has started to bite me

Gets anxious when away from herd although on inidivual grazing and whinneys constantly, ignore leg aids and direction given by myself on solo hacks, at shows etc. Often bolts to first horse that canters passed him in opposite direction.

I am nervous, excited and completely making a hash of riding him

Has no respect for my space

Maybe I don't read very well, but these are the statements I'm responding to in previous posts. This doesn't sound like a recent problem, caused by some change in the horses environment. It's been ongoing since Nic has had the horse and he's looking for answers. That can be very frustrating, and frightening, and it's an experience I remember very well. I hope that Nic is able to find the answers he's looking for, but after two years he may want to consider his resources. :confused: Whatever he's been doing, isn't working.

Nic, apologies for picking your post apart but I hope it may help you to isolate your problems. These type of troubles are all typical of inexperienced horsemen everywhere. Keep faith that things can be improved and continue searching for the answers. Good information is available to those that have enough 'try'.


Have fun, be safe

Jack

http://www.horsesplay.us/phpBB2/index.php

[nicolaj]

Hi Nic, had a quick skim through the posts!

For the groundwork issues I would really recommend and Kelly Marks RA, the lady who came to me and my cob was really helpful. In fact, the leading issues have cleared up. He is still a bit ploddy and does sometimes try it on about eating, BUT I'm not being dragged about anymore. Did a bit of work in the school with him the other day and he still remembers the lessons!

She cost me £54 in total.

I can sympathise re finance as I'm currently out of work and there is so much I'd like to be doing with my boy, but can't afford it! Typical as I now have the time!!!!:rolleyes:

I found not riding for a few weeks really useful and just spending time on the ground with him helped improve my own confidence, but there is no easy answer to improving your own confidence as I am finding!

Think others have covered the turnout issues in more detail.

Hope it works out for you as Captain is really georgous! Keep us posted.:)

[KateWooten]

is the best way to go about number 2. Ah ! Yes, agreed. I thought everyone had covered that <oops> ... so I was thinking more along the lines that Jack was ... that this has gone on far too long and Nic needs to find a way to see the whole thing from a deeper perspective (hence 'the book'). But yes, if someone can step right in and show her clearly how to stop him hauling her about right now - that would obviously be a great thing. My fear on that part is that is very difficult to find the right person to do that, locally, and bad one-to-one advice is often worse than none at all.

I don't know, I'm only little - when Rosie was hauling me about all over the place, I could find ways round her 'bad behaviour', and ways to manage it ... but it wasn't til I committed to really thinking hard about who she was, and who I was, and reading everything I could about it (and admitting to the world that I knew nothing for myself and would have to learn it all from her) that things changed between us, and she started not wanting to be the boss of us.

[NoviceNic]

Can we try and keep things non aggresive please...:o It makes me feel so embarrassed when people are confrontational. I dont wish to cause any arguments between NR members. We all have a right to air our opinions it is called Freedom of Speech. I want to hear about everyone's expereinces and advise so I can pick from it the parts I can work with..:)

Today I went up to the yard. The YO got out the Be Nice Headcollar. She showed me how to use it and promised me that my beast would be butter in my hands. I had a go and found it difficult when to look him in the eye or run away and pull the rope. But as the time went by I started to get it.. He did then follow me around and watched what I would do instead of the other horses. :) I woudl like to stipulate that the Be Nice head collar is a short term option to help me get him in and out safely.

The trainer is coming to see us on Monday morning. Apparently the training method is called 7 steps. The only thing I can do is try it and if I dont like it then come up with Plan B.. In the meantime I have the farrier, back lady and EDT booked to ensure there are no underlying factors. :)

[LindaAd]

Today I went up to the yard. The YO got out the Be Nice Headcollar. She showed me how to use it and promised me that my beast would be butter in my hands. I had a go and found it difficult when to look him in the eye or run away and pull the rope. But as the time went by I started to get it.. He did then follow me around and watched what I would do instead of the other horses. :) I woudl like to stipulate that the Be Nice head collar is a short term option to help me get him in and out safely.

The trainer is coming to see us on Monday morning. Apparently the training method is called 7 steps. The only thing I can do is try it and if I dont like it then come up with Plan B.. In the meantime I have the farrier, back lady and EDT booked to ensure there are no underlying factors. :)


This all sounds very hopeful, NoviceNic - I agree with Mehitabel that your plan A sounds excellent - the one about making sure that you are in control all the time, and the Be Nice headcollar sounds as if it's helping.

I think Levi's right too when he says that it's a problem that's been there all the time; but until it's been manageable. Now that your situation has changed, you are having to deal with it. But you will get there - I can see that!

As for books and horses, I'm going to start a new thread about that because I don't want to hijack this one ... <grin>

[Yann]

I had a go and found it difficult when to look him in the eye or run away and pull the rope.

Just curious as to what your YO had you doing? You don't actually mean you were running away from Captain and bopping him with the be nice surely?:eek: :D

He did then follow me around and watched what I would do instead of the other horses. I woudl like to stipulate that the Be Nice head collar is a short term option to help me get him in and out safely.

You got his attention because you were moving his feet effectively. Any kind of pressure or rope halter is useful in the early stages of groundwork with a resistant horse if used correctly - I would hope that your YO emphasised the point about giving him a release the moment he did what you were asking. The only thing I'd watch out for with the be nice is that it can cause rearing in some horses who object to the poll pressure. That's one of the reasons Monty R and co stopped using them and replaced them with the Dually.

The trainer is coming to see us on Monday morning. Apparently the training method is called 7 steps.

Does sound like a Parelli derivative. I've watched a similar trainer at work and it wasn't pretty. In the initial stages it's 'you shall' and then 'you shall' some more with knobs on. Hopefully it won't be like that, but if you feel what's happening to your horse amounts to him getting beaten up, then it's up to you to speak up for him, as nobody else will. Whatever you might be told, an OTT approach isn't the only way to get his respect and attention. Like I said hopefully that's not what you'll be getting :)

I would still maintain that you need to address the problem with single turnout too :)

[NoviceNic]

If Captain started to run off or put is head down to graze my YO said to run away and pull on the Be Nice collar. Then when he walked straight to me I groomed him on his withers and gave him a massive fuss.

Is this not right...:o

Spoke to YO about putting someone at the side of him to graze so he can touch another horse over the fence and one of the other ponies will be his new neighbour. Not sure when this is happening though..

Do you mean that they might physically beat him up?? Or do you mean that they will be over forceful with their NH methods???

[KateWooten]

... I know I should keep my mouth shut about it ... and I really don't want to start something up again ... but I really feel that reading around the subject is the way forward for you. Various people will come in and out of Captain's life as you find your own way forward with him - and you're honest, intelligent and determined so i have no doubt you WILL find your way forward with him, learning all the time ... but YOU will be the one constant in all this. It will have to be up to you, right there on the ground, to recognise what you're seeing in each person who comes in to give you advice. I don't see any route to gaining this sort of overview, except by committing to studying and understanding one complete training 'schema' from start to 'finish'. It gives you that perspective. Only once you've done that, can you then get the best out of reading about all the other various things that people do and say, ... how they differ ... where MR fits in with all this, how JL is not really NH ... and what alternatives there are to a (now)standard "squeeze-cluck-spank" escalating cue methodology.

I'm not sure that anyone here can tell you whether in your case, right there, with that horse, doing what he was doing ... whether taking a few steps back in order to put pressure on the halter and get his attention was an appropriate cue or not. It sounds quite harsh to ME ... but I'm not there dealing with a heavy bolshy cob. Certainly if it came 'out of the blue' with no warning, it was probably not appropriate ... but at the end of the day, you need his attention on you and you need to do what it takes to get that.

One really immportant thing I keep uppermost (and I read it in a book so it could be wrong) ... is no matter what cue you needed to use to 'get the job done', the next time you ask, you MUST return to the absolutely softest cue. It's difficult because it's counter-intuitive to the way our human minds work. We think 'oh, Captain is "the sort of horse who" needs a good tug on the halter' ... but only by being consistent and always returning to the softest cue to we re-educate the horse to respond to lightness.

See, I talk too much, and always want to help ... but the only reason I do that, is because all this is such very recent learning for me. A year or so ago, I was in dire straits with my understanding of the horse, and I had to spend a lot of energy figuring things out, and trying to find the best resources to do so, else I could see myself getting hurt. Having done that, and narrowed down the search, I just see this over and over ... people stuck somewhere, kind of isolated and not sure how to assess the 'good advice' they receive from 'local experts'.

At the end of it all - the only real advice is that you need to 'listen to the horse' and 'develop feel'... BUT ... how does that help you develop feel and timing ?

[Yann]

Is this not right...

Depends what you were doing at the time I suppose. The objective of any training for this type of thing as I'd see it (for what little that's worth of course ;) ) is that it should be clear to them what he should be doing as well as what they shouldn't. If you were just stood about waiting for him to get it wrong I'd personally see it as much less constructive than say leading him round and making it clear to him a) where you wanted him to be when you were leading and b) that you wanted him to mirror your movement, ie stop when you stopped and walk when you walked. I'd also aim to get a little bit of backing and coming forward, just small steps at first before attempting the leading work, to make it easier to put him back where you wanted him when he got it wrong and then quietly carry on.

Do you mean that they might physically beat him up?? Or do you mean that they will be over forceful with their NH methods???

Where does one end and the other begin? It's in the eye of the beholder to be honest. Please don't think I'm saying that it's going to happen, just to be aware that it could.

[NoviceNic]

Dont worry Kate I am going to the library this week to see if they have any books I can start to read. I think one about how to read your horse is a good start and then keep going with being a better horsewoman and learning as I go along with support. :)

Yann - I was walking in from his field to his stable. This is where we are clashing.