Ginny, respect, and reading the book

[LindaAd]

I've posted this here, although it started from a thread on lunging in the NH forum ...But I think it's of wider interest, and it relates to some of the discussions about the problems that NoviceNic has been having.

Well, I'm trying to earn some respect from my mare, who used to treat me like a foal, and who barged me over three times before I realised she was doing it on purpose. She was my daughter's mare; daughter competed her, and I was the groom, but that was a while ago.

I've been doing a lot of groundwork with her, using a plain rope headcollar, and we've come a long way - refusing to lead was another little problem we haven't had for ages.
I read Kate Farmer's lovely website about the Harmony Project, and Kate has given my some very kind and helpful advice on here, and I thought I'd try some of her ideas. Gin will already move her quarters away if I point, and her shoulder if I push, and she'll back as long as I walk with her and put a bit of pressure on the headcollar.

But she refused to back if I stood still, even if I poked her in the chest with the handle of a lunge-whip. And the respect step, that KF said was so important - no way. She just stood there and sait "What?" So I tried all these things out on our little pony, who's the sweetest, most respectful creature you could imagine, and who hasn't got the slightest conception of barging. Exactly the same result (although I'd never done any groundwork with her): moved quarters away, moved shoulders away, backed if I went too. Respect step? No. Just "Huh?"

OK. Then I wanted Ginny to go into the other half of the field, and little Cammy to stay behind. But Cammy wanted to go with her friend - so, I flipped my hands at her, I was still holding the lunge-rein, folded up, and I flapped the rein, and she stepped back, politely, out of my space, nearest foot crossing behind the other, just like in the book.
Magic. And then I wanted Gin to get out of the way so I could go through the gate first, so I said "back" and pointed - magic again. Two steps back.

So it seems to me that horses don't read books (or websites) but they judge situations
and that they have to understand not just what you're asking but why you're asking it.
And that maybe sometimes you shouldn't insist on what the book says, but on what your horse is telling you?

Sorry if I've gone on too long about two tiny incidents. But the question of reading and applying horse knowledge is such an ongoing and fascinating one, I thought they might be interesting.

[julia gulia]

"So it seems to me that horses don't read books (or websites) but they judge situations
and that they have to understand not just what you're asking but why you're asking it.
And that maybe sometimes you shouldn't insist on what the book says, but on what your horse is telling you?"




I think that for lots of people they first have to insist on what the book says before they really understand what the horse is telling them. There are so many people out there telling us all sorts of things . I think it is important to soak up all the information available and come to terms with what works best for each individual and each horse. I also don't think that horses try to understand why we ask them to do something...I think they do it because we tell them they must . I guess I am a little unsure of what your post is saying....( you mentioned the post by Novice Nic) I agree that we need to decide what we want from our horses, then we need to make our requests clear and must always be consistent. Most importantly though....I think we need to recognise the smallest effort on the horses part to comply with our request. Timing (in my opinion ) is one of the most important things to learn when working with horses.
Have I misunderstood your post??? If so...can you please clarify?:)

[Lili & Morgan]

Superb Post Linda.

I think in the first case, you were trying to reproduce something read, and you did not have the "energy", the "focus", and for yourself the why!

But in the second case you had a goal: to separate the two horses. So you use much energy in your demand ... and magic they understood you.

I have done something very similar with my very dominant mare and she would look at me "BORED" like "hmmm what it is with you today?" :D

But if *I* am in the right context, I can make myself understood.

I think it is what so many trainers called "feel". It is something inside you. How much will, energy, focus you use to make yourself understood. THAT cannot be describe in a book !!!

Sorry I am rambling a lot. I hope somebody will understand me. I am on a new path in my horsemanship. So I cannot express it very well.

But I understood you very well :p

[KateWooten]

I think the book should say 'get out there and try this ... and look for this ... and if this happens do this ...'

So we go out there, and try this, and look for that ... and then we see a way to to try something a bit different ... and it's good. And we come back and look at the book and flip a few more pages ... and there on page 100 there's something about it ... and we read some more, and try some more, and find out some more, and read the horse some more and grow some more .... and before you know it, we've outgrown the book.

Good.

[Kate F.]

So it seems to me that horses don't read books (or websites) but they judge situations
and that they have to understand not just what you're asking but why you're asking it.
And that maybe sometimes you shouldn't insist on what the book says, but on what your horse is telling you?



Hi LindaAd!

I agree with "Lili and Morgan" and the others - I think the point is to UNDERSTAND what the horse is telling you, which many people do not. Had you not known what the "back and away" step means, you may not have recognised it for what it is when Cammy did it.

I'm not sure that horses think about WHY you ask for something. After all, the horse that stands around and asks "why" is dead meat in the natural environment. Survival depends on instant and unquestioning falling in with the leader and the herd. I think what is really important is HOW you ask. If you ask for something, particularly something that is as important to the horse as these "respect" steps, but you are not really sure whether it is going to happen, if the horse is at all assertive, it won't. The horse will sense your uncertainty, and interpret that as disqualifying you as the best herd leader and will not want to defer to your authority at that time.

In the situations you describe, you weren't focussed on getting a particular step, but rather on creating space around you quickly, and that made your body language authoritative. You did what was necessary, and the horses replied appropriately in "horse" - which you recognised as such. What differed from the horse's point of view was not the situations themselves, but rather the way you presented yourself in the different situations.

You're certainly right that horses have not read books/websites - they are horses and just behave like horses. Where books/website are useful is in making people aware of what their horses are saying, and suggesting ways in which they can communicate with the horse and understand the response it gives back. It's about teaching people to be more perceptive and self aware with respect to our horses. The horses don't learn anything. They're horses and know it anyway!

It's an interesting point you raise, and highlights what I see as the difference between the "mechanical" natural horseperson - who just follows the instructions in the book until they get the results described in the book, and the "thinking" natural horseperson who really understands the horse's point of view, listens to what it says about things and interacts accordingly. That's not to say that the horse should have the last word - if Cammy had pushed past you instead of stepping back and away, you would have similarly recognised what that meant and asserted yourself more strongly. She should recognise your space and your authority in all situations and at all times - so in a way, you do need to "insist on what the book says" - but that's looking at it the wrong way up - it's more a matter of recognising and reacting according to the situation! ;)

Looking forward to reading what anyone else thinks on this!

[teabiscuit]

So it seems to me that horses don't read books (or websites) but they judge situations
and that they have to understand not just what you're asking but why you're asking it.
And that maybe sometimes you shouldn't insist on what the book says, but on what your horse is telling you?

.

love that quote. going to print it out and stick it on my forhead.

beautifully put.

[Yann]

And that maybe sometimes you shouldn't insist on what the book says, but on what your horse is telling you?

Agree completely :) I never lose sleep over the fact that my horses might not do this or that particular exercise in a training environment so long as their behaviour elsewhere is what I'm looking for from them. They know what certain things mean in certain contexts. That's not to say that groundwork doesn't get you that behaviour in the first place, because it can and does :)

[Mehitabel]

I'm not sure that horses think about WHY you ask for something. After all, the horse that stands around and asks "why" is dead meat in the natural environment. Survival depends on instant and unquestioning falling in with the leader and the herd. I think what is really important is HOW you ask. If you ask for something, particularly something that is as important to the horse as these "respect" steps, but you are not really sure whether it is going to happen, if the horse is at all assertive, it won't. The horse will sense your uncertainty, and interpret that as disqualifying you as the best herd leader and will not want to defer to your authority at that time.

just to be controversial and provoke conversation - do you think domestic horses still think like that? if they've never been in danger, never had to run for their lives at a signal from the leader, never depended on them to find food in winter when they're starving - do they really feel that way? for instance, a fair few horses are fussy about feed - that is definitely not a good survival strategy. we've trained them to ignore a lot of their natural instincts, letting us mess with their legs, sit on them, put them in stables overnight, so i wonder how strong this instinct would be in a horse who has been domesticated for generations.

i have also noticed a 'what's in it for me, why should i obey you' attitude from some horses and ponies, regarding training. especially natives - where 'because i say so' is not a good enough answer from their point of view. they won't be bullied or dominated, they have to want to please you and have to be motivated. i've noticed it less in TBs and horses with a longer history of domestication - most of the ponies i work with are forest-run 2 generations back at most, some have been born wild and lived feral themselves. they're harder to work with, you have to give them reasons to obey. i've often heard from people who do join-up that they are very hard to persuade to join up - they are quite happy on their own thankyou, and are more likely to react aggressively to being sent away.
they seem less dependent on people (in their heads - obviously they are actually dependent on us but they don't know it) and less needy of company.

i think you're quite right that linda probably 'meant it' more when she had a reason for asking the horse to go back. it's why i do groundwork in situations like this rather than in the school 'for the sake of it', once the initial lessons are done - i am motivated and so is the horse.

but you could say that the horse must do things 'because you say so' - for instance ifd there is a danger you can see and they can't, like a live electric wire on the floor, etc. i suspect that in that situation your urgency will communicate itself.

[teabiscuit]

just to be controversial and provoke conversation - do you think domestic horses still think like that? .

in my experience, some horses definately have that instinct in them much stronger than others, and you can't train it out of them, only work with it.

[eml]

Interesting post Mehitabel.

There is a definate mental difference between ponies and horses, most marked at the extreme with natives and TB's.

The ponies are very independent and quick to adapt to new routines the TB's very polite to people but less attuned to herd politics. We have in fact reacted to this by dividing our 'herd' across a pony/horse divide rather than mares/geldings as each group needs very different handling.

[Yann]

especially natives - where 'because i say so' is not a good enough answer from their point of view. they won't be bullied or dominated, they have to want to please you and have to be motivated

My experience with different horses is very limited but I'd have to say I've found that to be very much the case too.

[teabiscuit]

i have also noticed a 'what's in it for me, why should i obey you' attitude from some horses and ponies, regarding training. especially natives - where 'because i say so' is not a good enough answer from their point of view. they won't be bullied or dominated, they have to want to please you and have to be motivated.
.

i was trained from a young age by the welsh breeds, sections a and c and d.

they taught me to set things up so that i asked for what i wanted, if i'd done my preperation and my request was fair and reasonable, all i had to do was ask and i got.

that's how i do all my training now, i only ever demand if i've done all the prep and the horse has gone "no why should i"

if all that is in place, and i do demand, the horse usually complies with a minimum of fuss.

ETA this was learned at an estimated cost of a lot of bruised feet, stamped on toes, being dragged on my tummy across gravel (gave that up after 3 times), being run over, and more unintentional dismounts than i can ever remember (because some of them were on my head), so it wasn't cheap knowledge. But it's true what they say, there is no teacher like pain :D

[KateWooten]

Personally, I think we can improve on the 'school of hard knocks' and feel quite sick that anyone still advocates it when there are far more effective ways of sharing our knowledge. The medium is largely irrelevant, it's the message that's important.

[julia gulia]

Personally, I think we can improve on the 'school of hard knocks' and feel quite sick that anyone still advocates it when there are far more effective ways of sharing our knowledge. The medium is largely irrelevant, it's the message that's important.

I think the medium is very important . If the medium is flawed then the message is blurry .

[teabiscuit]

hi Kate, I'm not advocating the school of hard knocks at all. Just trying in my own little way to explain where i'm coming from.

i think we're in danger of spinning off thread again, i'm happy to continue this discussion on a new thread or by PM
ETA i'm not especially proud of the way my knowledge was formed, it's just the way life happened.

[teabiscuit]

I think the medium is very important . If the medium is flawed then the message is blurry .

do you know Julia, I think that you have a good point there.
I think that the way I learned makes me put things across in a blurry way.

[KateWooten]

ah yes.. .good points ... and of course - different people learn different things via different media with different degress of success - I do like to sit down in my own time, with many repeats with a book (or dvd)... then see what the horse says ... then read some more etc. And I do find it hard to be centered and focussed with a real live other person on the scene jibber-jabbering at me - I can't hear the horse then. BUT - I can see that is just the way I learn best.

I get a little suspicious (did anyone notice :rolleyes: ) when horses don't do things 'by the book' .. which book ? No book I ever read said 'do this for ten minutes and the horse WILL do that'. Rather they tend to say 'if the horse looks like this, it's likely he's feeling like this.. you could try doing this, and watch to see if he looks more like this ...'

Hmmm............. I think I get about the medium being 'blurry' now :D :D

Some nice guy once told me there were 4 parts to a conversation - what I say and what you hear, what you say and what I hear. Maybe there's more like 16 parts .. what I say, what I thought I said, what I wanted to say, what I should have said ....

[levi1739]

Horses don't need books, humans do. The "horse already knows" everything. ;) I usually read the book, and then "ask" the horse if what I read was true. Horses have never told me an untruth.

LindaAd's experience is a good illustration of this. She read KateF's page and gathered up a couple of "tools" (ideas) and then tried them on her horses. First unsuccessfully, but then at the most unexpected time, it worked. Would this have happened without the reading of the ideas on KateF's page, or some other source of the ideas. I don't think so, humans have to learn it, one painful step at a time, while horses are born knowing. Books, tapes, lessons are all valuable teaching aids, but they are worthless without the horse.

It's the horse that knows, it's the horse that seperates truth from fiction if we listen, and it's the horse that truely will teach us if given the chance. Horses don't read books, they write them, we just need to be able to "read their language".

I think domestic horses can become very complacent in a known environment. The instincts are still very much present, just unneeded when they are in the familiar pasture or arena. Take em out in the big world and those instincts will likely become very active. I recently saw a video about Zebras (truely wild equines) grazing while lions rested nearby. The zebra herd will graze and stay calm as long as the lions are resting in a non threatening manner. (laying around stuffed from eating a zebra;) ) When the lions aroused and stood up, the zebra herd stampeded away. The zebras could see the lions but weren't threatened while they rested, but "zebras know" when a lions hungry. I found this pretty interesting and very relevent to horsemanship.

Books, I can't imagine anyone with negative views of books. Sheesh, with what's on tv these days I have to read a lot. Don't believe it all, but I read it anyway.

Glad to hear of your success Linda. Keep reading and learning, with knowledge comes progress.


Have fun, be safe

Jack

http://www.horsesplay.us/phpBB2/index.php

[Lili & Morgan]

At the end of the days, we are all the students of the horse ...

Books, DVDs, clinics, lessons are for helping us to understand them.