How much training to get horse "engaging from the hind"?

[Scarlett 001]

Suppose one has a horse (okay, in this case I am of course referring to my horse!) that is not terribly on the forehand, and is now accepting contact and relaxing his head/jaw and lowering into the contact. But he is not yet engaging from behind. This horse is doing better than ever before using his hind, as evidenced by his quickly developing muscles in the hind. He has nice natural gaits. The horse is being ridden at least 4 if not 5 times a week in a manner to help develop his muscles (and he is doing long reining work as well).

Just wondering what to expect in terms of a general time frame for how long it typically takes to develop the muscles and skills to engage the hind? Is this something that generally might take many, many years for a horse at the stage of training I describe? Or is this something that might take many, many months? I realize each case is specific, and generalities are hard to make of course, but I am just trying to get some realistic expectations of ranges of time frames that one might expect (so I don't get frustrated when it does not happen sooner than later!). :) Or are there some horses than never manage to engage the hind even with the correct training?

[jenren!!]

Well all i can say is at the rate you're going and the amount of effort you're putting in it could be a matter of months, or even weeks :).

I've never really had a horse i can say i've trained to be that way...without losing confidence etc on the way.

[Scarlett 001]

I've never really had a horse i can say i've trained to be that way...without losing confidence etc on the way.

You got me curious - what happened along the way in your case to make you lose confidence? If you don't mind sharing, I'd like to hear your story to help me see the full range of experiences people have. (if not, that's ok too)

Actually, your post made me think I'd love to hear stories of people who have had a horse with similar skills when they began training, and to hear their successes and failures in the training process of getting them to move in this way...

(thanks jenren for your vote of confidence that Skeet and I can do this!) :)

[Bozzy]

With my youngster, we get stages of it at present but he finds it very hard due to not having the muscles in the right places to be consistant. I personally am looking at a time scale of 4-6 months before he can really start engaging and working through correctly and 'easily' (and that's with working him 5-6 times per week)

[chev]

Some horses do certainly find it harder; sway backed horses, those with straight hocks or sickle hocks and some long-backed horses will find it physically more of a challenge. But most horses will improve over time... sounds like you are heading in the right direction.

Is this Skeeter? If so, he'll probably improve more as he builds up more muscle. You have done incredibly well with him so far; as he gets stronger he'll be more and more able to work in teh way you're asking. In a way, because he was so poor when you got him, he's starting from a lower rung on teh ladder than some; he first has to rebuild the muscle he needs, and then learn how to work properly. Time, time, and more time... ;)

What kind of work are you doing to help him use his hocks? Transitions are useful; lots of walk/halt/walk type stuff, adn if he's coping well with transitions, introduce halt to trot, rein-back to trot and more complicated things.

Varying circle size helps too; come in from a twenty metre circle to fifteen (or ten if he's balanced enough) and back out again. Introduce serpentines if you haven't already; and each time you cross the centre line, halt. I did some canter serpentines on a fairly stiff mare a couple of weeks ago; we did canter/halt/canter each time we crossed the centre line and it was amazing how much she started to bring her hocks under her as a result.

And then there's poles... trotting poles are really good for encouraging a horse to flex his hocks and step under himself. Raise them slightly if he can manage it (not much; just enough to ask him to lift his feet a little more) and use them on circles too. Lay them out in a fan shape and work in and out across them; gets the horse collecting and extending and is great for working the hindquarters.

But above all, don't worry. It will come, I'm sure; if you can see improvements in the muscling in his hindquarters then you're well on teh way.

[DavidH]

Unfortuneately there isn't a difinitive answer to your question.
Thats because there isn't a point where a horse has reach full engagement of the quarters. It is a continuoes development that happens slowly.
Think of the different level of engagement required to do a free walk versus piaffe. Both cases the horses quarters are engaged (or should be ;) ) but the level is vastly different
What you need to do is video skeeter doing a simple excercise, say 20mtr circle in trot. Then video in the same exercise 3 months later, then again in another 3 months and so on. You will be amazed at the amount of improvement you hadn't realised had happened.
This is because the improvement happens every time you work a horse correctly but it is so small you don't notice it. Because the time span is long again you dont notice the improvement. The horse feels just like he did yesterday.
It is here that the vids really help you understand your rate of improvement.

I constantly tell pupils not to measure improvemnt on a day by day or week by week basis. If at the end of each month you can say the horse is even slightly better than at the start of the month then you are going in the right direction.
Horses only stop improving when the rider stops asking

[Scarlett 001]

Thanks all for replies.

Chev, yes this is Skeeter!!! :) Your post here also answers my post in this section on long reining exercises - I can do most of the things you said long reining too!! Some great ideas! That is neat that you mentioned reinback, as poohsmate recommended this too. :)

Right now, in long reining we've been doing loads of transitions, and could add in some of the stuff you mention to vary the routine a little. We've just started trot poles long reining too - would I want them closer or further or average distance to get him using his hocks more??? In riding, my RI has really focussed on contact and transitions since I got the saddle (we wanted to get his head/jaw relaxed to stop him hollowing that back). Skeeter takes contact well and perfectly when long reining, but I am not the best rider so it has taken time under saddle (well a few weeks to achieve since I've had my custom saddle and his back is comfortable riding, so it has not been that long really since it is all new to him!). But now that we have achieved a relaxation of his head/neck under saddle, I think we are ready to move on to the kinds of things you mention.

In terms of the hind end, these pics are interesting.
Pic #1: This is when I bought him. Weak hind as you can see.
Pic #2: This is back in April/May just before ordering my custom saddle and the 3-4 months long reining work (we did it 4-5 times per week for the entire 3-4 months as I had no saddle and was addicted to long reining).
Pic #3: Look at the hind in mid-August. This was towards the end of the intense long reining period. You can see the improvement in the hind muscles quite clearly I think.

Pic 1:

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a17/scarlett001/skeeterwither44.jpg

Pics 2 ("pre" long reining work):

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a17/scarlett001/conformationleft7.jpg

Pic 3 ("post" long reining work):

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a17/scarlett001/conformationpicture2.jpg

[Scarlett 001]

DavidH - thanks for tip re videoing (we cross-posted so I did not mention your reply in previous response). Actually, I have him on tape recently doing the circles long reining and under saddle. Good idea to videotape again in a few months, and then I can see the changes.

Thanks for reminder of how gradual the progress might be in this regard. But change is happening as you said. The thing is I am loving the journey sooo much - I am having the best time working with Skeeter, and he is enjoying things too so it really doesn't matter when this happens as long as we are happy and progressing in a way that suits us both. :D

[DavidH]

I am having the best time working with Skeeter, and he is enjoying things too so it really doesn't matter when this happens

Ah but thats my point....It never will happen. The more engagement you get the more you will wnat so there will never come a time when you will say to yourself he is truely engaged. There will always be that little bit more you want and believe he can give. Thats what keeps it interesting.

One little point. Dont get too hung up over development of the quarters. Engagement starts with softening of the poll, stretching of the the upper neck muclses, relaxing and lifting of the back allowing the quaters to step through and under creating the power called engagement.
Exercises must be included that specifically target strength and flexibility in the top line to allow engagement.

[Scarlett 001]

David - yep, I can imagine reaching an ever-changing elusive target does keep it interesting! Maybe my question was better worded "how long generally until a horse might begin to show 'hints' of engaging from behind, enough so that he is off the forehand in any serious way that impedes him moving relatively well". (i.e., the horse is starting to be better balanced, even if there is loads of room to improve always). But then that is quite subjective and not really easy to anwer either... :rolleyes:

One little point. Dont get too hung up over development of the quarters. Engagement starts with softening of the poll, stretching of the the upper neck muclses, relaxing and lifting of the back allowing the quaters to step through and under creating the power called engagement.
Exercises must be included that specifically target strength and flexibility in the top line to allow engagement.

The improvement in the hind is just so obvious in the pictures that I had to share, and tend to get a little overexcited about the progress (he obviously did need some muscling in that regard). Presumably though his hind muscles developing indicate that he is moving better up front??? If he was really shuffling on the forehand as he did when I got him, presumably the hind muscles would not develop as readily as they have been doing?

I would think that getting Skeeter to accept contact and relax his neck/head (as my RI has been doing with me) is a first step in stopping the hollowing and tightening of the back and neck, and setting things up so he can move correctly through the topline. His neck and topline etc. are improving, though the changes are subtle - I do lots of carrot stretches and leg stretches too. Presumably the kinds of exercises Chev mentioned (some of which I do already) will improve stretching/flexibility.