what would you breed a TBx mare with?

[summerguest]

I've got a 15.3hh bay TBx mare by Welton Apollo (eventer) who I would love to put in foal next year.
But I can't decide what to put her with...

She is lean and leggy with a long back and flat feet, so want something a bit chunkier with more upright feet and shorter coupled.So far I'm toying with

Crabbit arab ( I've 2 PBA's and just love arabs)
Warmblood (Fulton) love his foals they have such wonderful movement
Welsh D


My mare has got a wonderful quiet temperement and is very bold jumping, but not keen on dressage (although has nice paces) I'm primarily into dressage but as she has eventer lines I keep thinking I should put her with a 'jumper'.

Any ideas?

[CurlyWurlyRach]

personally id go warmblood :)

[JustJas]

Decide what you want the horse for.
Then look what breeds would be best.

Good luck- foals are as big a nightmare as reward- been there- the bruises, concussion- and joy!

Our unplanned foal now a five year old 16hh mw and ridden by hubby has been worth it in the end.

try not to think I could have bought the black arab mare I saw for sale twice over with the costs of keeping and breaking Kizzy!

[Lgd]

I've just bred a foal this year from my 7/8 TB mare. The mare was event-bred and preferred dressage :rolleyes: She has gone to PSG/Inter I level but does lack natural suspension in the trot work. It is actually quite useful to breed the jumping blood into dressage horses to keep the power in the hind end.

I bred to a KWPN (Dutch) stallion called Mooiman, you can see him here : www.holdenfolddressage.com
Interestingly if you look at his bloodlines there is a lot of jumper blood in there.

The result has been a beautiful filly who took reserve champion at her inspection grading. She was particularly commended on the power and suspension of her trot.

You do need to consider costs - Belle has cost me almost £2000 to get to 6 months of age from the decision to breed. That is without factoring in the cost of the mare's keep. You also need to consider are you willing to risk losing the mare, things can and do go wrong, I was incredibly lucky with a straight forward conception (she was 16yo when covered) and an easy delivery. Unless you are breeding from a high level mare it is often better to buy one - at least you can see what you're getting beforehand.

My pics aren't working at the moment so I can't show you the mare/foal - unless you have last week's horse and hound - in the sport horse breeding section is a piccy from the Myerscough grading, Belle is the chestnut filly right in the middle of the picture.

If you decide to go ahead, first look at the mare's movement and conformation with a critical eye. What are the strong points, what are the weak points you want to improve, what do you want to do with the offspring. You've said you want to pursue the dressage, but to what level?
I wanted a potential GP horse - Peri (the mare) has a record at the lower FEI levels and works at GP at home. The stallion (Mooiman) has a record at International FEI small tour and will go GP next year.

You also need to think commercially - there is the intention to breed and keep, but your circumstances may change, so you need to produce something that is attractive to a potential purchaser. Use the best stallion you can afford and like.

My stallion search requirements were a good trot that was passed on to the offspring, good temperament, good soundness record, good competition record at FEI level, 16 - 16.2hh, not overly long in the back.

[blackhorses]

To be honest it sounds as if your mare is not something to be bred from, always breed from the best, conformation is really important as well as temperament, there are so many horses out there it would be better to buy a youngster. If your mare has all these faults - which are major ones, then no matter how good a stallion you put her to she is still contributing 50% of the foals genes, you might be lucky and get a nice foal, but there is a very high chance it could have all the faults that your mare has and more. I would think very carefully about breeding from your mare, just because she has a good pedigree does not mean she should have a foal. It is cheaper to buy a youngster than breed one, and you can at least see what you are getting rather than keeping your fingers crossed and hoping to get something that was worth putting so much work, emotion and money into. Sorry to be so blunt but I see so many people with mares that should not be bred from "but are really well bred" that are put to a good stallion in the hopes that they will get a good foal, and when they don't they are dissapointed and it is the animal that suffers in the long run - go to any horse market and you will see plenty of such animals. Think long and hard about the reasons for breeding from your mare.

[summerguest]

I see what your saying, I may have made her sound worse than she is, she has very good conformation for a rangy eventer, which is fine but my personal preference is for something slightly stockier. I am being very critical picking out her worst faults to find a stallion that complements her best. For example she has the flat foot of a typical thoroughbred, my arabs have small boxy feet that are typical to their breed etc. She is generaly in good proportion with a good sloping shoulder and no major faults, X Country is her thing, as she is athletic and brave.

I keep my horses at home so don't have to pay livery costs, but understand its not a profitable pursuit, but I assumed a rewarding one if all goes well.

She was hunted before I bought her for my daughter (then 12) for ponyclub and riding club, and she is excellent at what she does.

Are you saying that you shouldn't breed from good general riding horses only those capable of competing at a high level? even if you only want a good riding club horse...should we not breed these?

I suppose one of the reasons I would like to breed a foal is that I'm getting on a bit and its something that I would like to do, but until now haven't had a mare I felt worth breeding from. Lots of people comment on her exceptional nature and ability as a good all rounder ( only at riding club level.....but then she is ridden by a child) and it was my dressage instructor who first suggested it, and a vet who has dealt with her.

Its good to hear your views as I am thinking about it very cautiously and may well never do it.

Its interested that there is more negative that positives coming back, is there a general dislike of homebred foals? should we leave it to the professionals, or better still work towards a breeding programme akin to Germany's?

Is there anyone out there who's glad they have bred their own foal?

[prettybluepony]

Well, to be honest I would often rather a homebred. :) I think having a horse which you feel will throw a nice foal is a great achievement, and you need to make that decision. I have never bred my own foal, but one day plan to with some shetlands! :)

I would personally from the sound of her breed her to a Dutch Warmblood in Scotland. He is a nice colored warmblood with a good jump, though he isn't that chunky, but in horses I look for a jumper, or an eventer, lean, not too much height(I'm overhorsed very easily, and if I can't reach the buckle of the reins;)) , in ponies however I love a bit of width, aswell as a bit of jump. ;)

Apart from that I might go with the sec D. for good action, temperament, rideablity, and substance! ;)

[blackhorses]

It's not that there is a dislike of homebred foals - far from it, but so many people make the mistake of thinking that their pet is wonderful and not actually standing back and looking at the horses faults and realising that the foal may well have all of these and more, from personal experience alot of people that come to us looking to use our stallion thier main reason for breeding is that the mare can't be used for anything else - fair enough if the mare has sustained an injury, but it is often due to conformation or inherited bad traits or bad temperament - you would not believe some of the nags - even top pedigree ones, people want to put in foal to try and make some money!! Also people want something better than they already have but can't afford a good youngster so think that breeding is the cheaper option - but it rarely works out that way and is often far more expensive than buying a weanling. It is very expensive breeding a foal and rearing it to adulthood in one piece! - what if it doesn't fullfill your requirements, it would be fine if you are willing to keep it as a pet, but would it be something that someone else would buy and pay at least the amout it cost you to breed it? These are things most people don't take into consideration, it is good that you are thinking about this rather than making a spur of the moment decision or going with the most fashionable stallion even if it is totally wrong - unbelievably lots of people do this!
Don't get me wrong breeding horses is extremley rewarding when it all goes to plan and it usually does but you really need facilities as well as thinking ahead to weaning etc. and the risks to your pet mare, and do you have the time to deal with things if they go wrong - like bottle feeding?
Have you got a conformational picture of your mare?

[summerguest]

Blackhorse...just looked at your website....gorgeous horses!! Fresions are so proud looking, I rode an elderly stallion in Spain that did a lot of tv and displays when younger, he was a character but so gentle and treated like a gelding with the mares ( do they loose interested when eldely?!!)

Anyway thanks for your info and advice, Although I like the idea I am a cautious person and find the thought of breeding a foal quite daunting!

I've bought foals and yearlings in the past and experienced heart ache.
I had to sell my 'baby' purebred arab age 7 as she didn't grow to the expected height and she was not confortable with my weight, having had her since a yearling I was heartbroken to let her go. I also had a 9 month PBA foal slip awkwardly in the field and break its leg, so know how horrendous it can be. I had a sec A foal once wild from the welsh mountains, unhandled and fiesty...thank god she was tiny! She is working happily in the local riding school now (daughter out grew and my RI friend has her).

SO......basically I do tend to look at things with a view to everything that could go wrong! If the worst thing that happened is that I ended up with a horse just like my mare I would be pretty happy!

[clarejones]

hi i have a nice connemara stallion dark stranger he crosses well with horses www.claresconnemaras.com if your interested

[prettybluepony]

As long as you are prepared and find a stallion which compliments your mare then go for it!

[claire156]

Hi summerguest i own a 14'3 chestnut arab mare (Crabbet breeding) who i sent to stud last year her boyfriend was Country Top Gun a known coloured stallion. This year my 14 year old mare produced a beautiful coloured filly it has cost me around £2000 and i wouldnt change her for the world. I am sure my mare is not to everybodys liking and has faults but talk to studs they are there to help take time to find the right stallion. Im doing it again next year! :)

[Lgd]

Wouldn't swap my baby for anything. OTOH because she is bred from a high level mare & stallion it would have cost me way more to buy her than breed her. The half sibling who edged her out at the grading (and it was an edge out - one inspector had Belle to win, the other had L's filly and managed to discuss her out of it - drat!) has just been sold for around the £20K mark :eek: no way could I afford that!

OTOH I could have got an absolutely useless foal - there are no guarantees!

Couldn't recommend the Holdenfold stallions or the stud enough. My mare came back in fabulous condition and they kept me updated all the way along.

[KarinUS]

I am with blackhorses on this one. If you want something stockier, you could just buy another yearling that is stockier and more like what you want.

Breeding animals is not like mixing blue and yellow and getting green. If you get a foal with less than stellar conformation you could just sell it on and contribute to the already plentyful population of mediocre horses.

Why not buy what you want. At least you'll know what you are getting. By the time you breed and provide vet care you are already spending a ton anyway.

[teabiscuit]

what is she crossed with?

[ImaLittleBoston]

I would have looked at a holsteiner, they are so lovely :)
Heres a pretty TB/ Holsteiner cross -- http://classifieds.atlanticrider.com/cgi-bin/classifieds.cgi?session_key=&search_and_display_db_button=on&db_id=66151&query=retrieval
I want him :O *DROOLS*

[JustJas]

Irish Draught x TB is fantastic and would make a solid cross to your mare!

[Bay Mare]

I'm afraid that I'm with Blackhorses and Lgd on this one too. There are enough foals out there that need homes without breeding more.

To play the game though ... I'd probably look at doing a TB x Iberian :)

[FudgieFoo]

I've just put my welsh D in foal to a TB. I did this after recommendation from my vet to allow her to have a year off and put her in foal! She has her conformational faults like many but I went for something strong in her weak areas. To be honest I want something just like her. She is my perfect horse and hopefully foaly will be like her!

[summerguest]

fudgiefoo...similar reason really, After being show jumped on hard ground, she went lame and ct scan showed inflamed navicular bursa. The vet recommended some time off with gentle exercise and maybe put her in foal. He felt her foot conformation was good, so would not pass on any heriditory defects, and there is nothing awful in the rest of her conformation. He thought she would throw a good foal, and the vet college said they had never had such a well mannered horse to deal with. If she passed that on I'd be pleased as punch. Like you, to me she is near perfect so quite happy if foal takes after her, and the point of it would be an adventure and future project to work on. Its more the pregnancy and birth complications that terrify me!

[summerguest]

Baymare , do they cross well? I like iberian horses (lusitano most) but I haven't come across (knowlingly) a Tbx Iberian.

Her sire (welton Apolo) is described as a british sports horse with supurb tb bloodlines, her dam is homebred and just described as TBx.

[teabiscuit]

trouble is, if you're not sure what's in her background breeding wise, you're stabbing in the dark as to what kind of foal you'll get.


that isn't to say you shouldn't breed from her, just think carefully what you'll do if she has soemthing unexpected in her background and it pops up in the foal-this could happen either conformation wise or temprament wise or both.

breeding from known stock is a gamble, breeding from unknown stock is even more of a gamble.

[teabiscuit]

her sire is described as technically TB, so if you can do a bit of investigative work as to what her dam was, tb x ? you may have more of an idea

but your mare is at least 50% TB, and I think Welsh stallion x with TB mare makes an excellent cross. have a look here

http://members.aol.com/WELSHHORSES/

[Lgd]

Welton Apollo is a very well recognised event stallion. If you want something to really do dressage I would tend to go KWPN or Holstein registry. The Hanoverians tend to be relatively longer in the back and you did mention wanting something more short-coupled. Short-coupled do tend to find the dressage easier.

I wouldn't tend to go to the Iberian breeds as TBH there are not many in the UK of the type needed to produce a dressage horse (the one I would consider has a humungous stud fee - I know as I have looked for Tavia (I had one sorted, but sadly he died).

You need to look for rideability in the stallion - there are many who are good stallions with successful offspring BUT they tend to be what is euphemistically termed a 'professional ride' albeit very talented.

I used Mooiman (KWPN) who has a good competitive record, he (and his sire) are known for producing very rideable horses for both amateur and professional riders and for stamping their stock quite strongly with those characteristics.

This is Moo http://www.holdenfolddressage.com/Mooiman.htm

Welsh Sec D does make a nice cross, albeit smaller than you would perhaps be looking for - I competed a lovely mare for some years. The drawback can be the type produced can be very unpredictable. We put two TB mares to the same Sec D - the lighter mare (very much flat-race type) produced a very cobby mare who couldn't move well to save her life - nothing like either parent. (The same mare to a TB stallion produce two phenomenal offspring). The other (NH mare, so heavier in type) produced the above mare I rode who was a very elegant animal and a distillation of the best from both parents.

In terms of complications I can perhaps put that a little in perspective, you do need to consider it as a potential risk.

The stud that bred my older mare was actively breeding for around 25 years. At least 2 foals most years, sometimes more. In that time losses were - 1 mare with toxaemia post foaling, she was badly torn and the foal was born dead, only other mare lost presented as colic post-foaling but it turned out to be a cancer in the bowel so was not foaling related. Foal losses - the above one + one other born dead, 1 with a birth defect who died at 3 days. 1 to pneumonia at 4 weeks old. One lost at 10 months to infection (hand-reared foal of the mare with cancer).

Sounds pretty horrific but in terms of overall numbers over the years that is not so bad and with modern veterinary knowledge the latter two would have possibly survived.

[Lgd]

Hoping piccy might work today

This is Belle

http://groups.msn.com/upsaddle2/lgd.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=15700

and her mum, Peri

http://groups.msn.com/upsaddle2/lgd.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=1500

[FudgieFoo]

The pregnancy bit is easy! Well it has been so far.............

Yes birthing complications terrify me but I read 90% of natives foal without any problems. Plus we have a vet just round the corner................

[stitches]

Depending on what you want the foal for - I'd recommend a Trakehner.

Biased as I have a TB cross Trakehner, but a good Trakehner is the ultimate allround sports horse......plus they're gorgeous, have never known an ugly one! (unfortunately mine took after his TB mum, but hey ho!).

[summerguest]

Can't trakehners be a bit temperemental? or is that just hearsay?

[Lgd]

Can't trakehners be a bit temperemental? or is that just hearsay?

Yes, they do tend to be a bit hotter and more refined - there was quite a lot of Arab and TB bred in earlier on in the stud book history, the Russian Trakehner studbook still do so (the German version is now a closed book)

[summerguest]

lgd...mooiman looks gorgeous, do you know of any video clips of him, would like to see him move. Your pics are lovely.

What you said about rideability for the amateur is so true....The idea of having a brilliant dressage horse is wonderful, but I'm a struggling bhs stage 3 rider not quite ready for the olympics! Also I'm 40 years old and will be a good few years older still by time foal is ready to be backed!

Do you know anything about Fulton, I keep being drawn to him, as I have seen some of his youngstock and loved the way they moved. They also seemed really laid back.

[Lgd]

I do know of Fulton, but IME he's not really producing what I would call 'classy' dressage offspring consistently. He has a few really nice one's competing, but for the time he's been around I would have expected more to be on the scene. His own competition record looks pretty average and he certainly topped out at Medium for some reason, he only has one result at Advanced Medium in 1999 at just on 60%. No results for him after 2000.
http://www.britishdressage.co.uk/horseResults.cfm?season=2000&horse=1684901014

I don't know of any vid clips of Moo BUT the stud have a DVD available with him on (and the other stallions) and will send a copy out to you. I do have a copy somewhere (and am embarrassed to say not sure where :o ) as Peri is actually on it, albeit for a fleeting glimpse.

TBH I don't think the DVD does him justice, he is fabulous 'in the flesh', well worth a visit to see him.

Not sure where you are geographically - if you're close enough to me you are quite welcome to come and visit the sproglet. She's always up for cuddles and scritches :D

Having said the Trakhs are hot, there is one I considered for Peri - he's called Treliver Decanter and is quite unusual as he is Palomino. Am having naughty thoughts now as Peri is genetically 50% chestnut, as proven by her daughter, so there would be a 50% chance of a palomino :D (Slaps own hands as have no more space/time/money)

[summerguest]

I have a palomino partbred arab..baught him for the stupid reason that he looked like my first horse who I had put down in 1999 at 28. The vet said I shouldn't buy him, (long story) but gut instinct said yes...and I love him to bits. (had him nearly 5 years now)

If takehners are only as daft as arabs then perhaps I could cope with that as thats what I'm used to. Trakehners do seem to be a breed (like arabs) that people seem to love or hate!

I'm in Hertfordshire so perhaps logistically Moo may not be possible, tho I suppose frozen semen can be posted anywhere! but he sounds good...its nice to hear other peoples opinions as I am stabbing in the dark being a first timer.

[stitches]

Trakehners are renowned for being 'hot' but no more so than a Thoroughbred.

They're fab allround sports horses - Trakehners and part breds have competed at every Olympic equestrian discipline - and love to work.

I'd never call them daft - they're scarily intelligent, and love to work. A lot of the problems that arise with them seem to be from not having enough work to keep their brains engaged. They're also renowned for being brave and with lots of stamina - they were originally bred as cavalry horses.

Treliver Decanter's not a Trakehner as far as I know - Hannoverian cross Dutch I think? But they have a few Trak broodmares at that stud, with v good lines.

[Santi]

I've got an 8 year old gelding and they are amazing horses - i can see why some people don't like them but you couldn't find a more engaged horse - he is thinking all the time and he learns very fast. He isn't lacking in common sense although he can get excited. I don't like hot horses, i have ridden much worse natives and TB's and arabs i would rate way hotter than Traks.
He is not sneeky or lazy ever, he loves to work and they have the most amazing paces and natural jump. He also has smallish tidy feet, no soup plates in this breed.
If you want a dressage horse and one that jumps i would go for the trakehner. They are similar enough to the TB that you are unlikely to get a weird mixture (i personally think the Welsh x TB is not good - they are too different and i have seen some really odd ones) remember that the genes don't 'MIX' you get a random mix from each parent.
You will need to be good with youngstock because the Trak will ask a lot of questions and work things out! They can be a bit fine so if your mare needs more bone choose a heavier one.

[Santi]

Sorry its only a field shot. (OH being trained to take action shots:) ) He is 17hh.

[joey_olop]

TBs crossed with Welsh Ds are a fab cross, we have a few down my yard they are so versatile, turn a hoof to anything :D

Good Luck :)

[Lgd]

I'm in Hertfordshire so perhaps logistically Moo may not be possible, tho I suppose frozen semen can be posted anywhere! but he sounds good...its nice to hear other peoples opinions as I am stabbing in the dark being a first timer.

You're close enough for chilled as well as frozen.
Although he's only AI I sent Peri to the stud because their stud-vet has such a fab record of getting them in foal - 3 of the last 4 years they've got 100% with fresh, frozen and chilled semem :eek: that is one heck of a record.

[puzzles]

welsh D/arab - warmbloods tend to have flat feet, arabs have short backs and tend to have good feet, both breeds excellent conformationa and builds.

[chev]

Welsh x TB are lovely horses; substantial and athletic with plenty of ability and presence.

But I'm gradually being won over by the Iberian horses... the mare we have on loan is in foal to an Andalusian x TB (1/4 TB) and he is the most amazing horse. His movement is to die for, he has a temperament second to none, and he really stamps his foals. Lovely short-coupled up-to-weight athletic stock. Iberians/Spanish cross well with just about everything from TB through to QH.

And if it's dressage you want to do, you can't beat Spanish blood.

[puzzles]

i agree that welsh crosses make fabulous, on-for-all horses with fa temprements, ability and comformation

[summerguest]

Wow! so many different opinions!!!! I'll let you know if it happens and what with! Think I'm more undecided than ever! I love so many different 'types' and breeds I swing from one to another. Thanks for all your advice and suggestions.

[puzzles]

anytime hun - what a lucky mare!
:-) hope all goes well
x

[amandaco]

i agree with LDG in all respects. breeding is a huge gamble why make it any riskier with a mare who has faults she is likely to pass on?
i also agree about holdenfold :)
i also have a mooiman 06 filly who is an absolunt dream in all ways.she is prob the most sensible horse i have owned never mind most sensible youngster.
she has an excellent temperment, loves people, never bitten anyone, very gentle, easy to handle, not scared by rugs etc and to top it all moves extremely well!she will make 16hh+(she is 15.1hh and 11 months) and i really couldnt fault her.
mum is a dressage horse, has good conformation and temperment(although can be slightly hot) and 15.1hh.she is ISH, blue rajah lines


this is a recent pic of her
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c228/teesfabpics/jan%20feb%20march%20april%2007/IMGA4986.jpg
and one of her aged 3months
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c228/teesfabpics/3months%20old/896314ce.jpg

[anna15]

mines a tbx section d by primitive rising heres a pic of her

[anna15]

heres another pic of her whole body, most people say she is very well put together and isnt like most gangly tb types.

hope this helps lol