Michael Peace, dressage rider!

[Heather]

HI All,



Just spent two days turning my good pal Mike Peace into the beginnings of a dressage rider. He wants to compete to a high level to show that force in dressage training is just not necessary. He has had several very high class dressage hroses in over the last year for retraining after they have been forced and bullied to the point of being unrideable in some cases, and it has made him want to do something about it.

So, Mike and Susie have been down for two days. As I knew, he is a piece of cake to teach- naturally very light in his seat and hands. He would be the first to admit that he needed tidying up, but he has transformed in two days, and is looking better than most dressage riders already! I sent him away with plenty of homework, which wife Susie, is keeping him to!

Mike managed his first flying changes on Ringo this afternoon- producing a grin from ear to ear! I find that of all things guaranteed to get the student feeling elated, it is the flying change!!!

He is going to be very good, as I predicted. It is also fun teaching a friend, whose 'leg I can pull' unmercifully!!

Heather

[Sapphire]

Nice one Heather!!! I'd love to see him ride!! He's fab man, love him dispite reading so little. I should imagine his seat was pretty good already. Must you really pull his legs though!!!:D

[Kerry's Partner!!]

I'm grinning from ear to ear too. What brilliant news. I'm not at all surprised to hear how well Mike's done in your hands. I've come to realise 'though (and I know you always have Heather) that the apparent untidiness hides a vast wealth of expertise. He has kept the attention (with partnership) of all the horses he has helped in so very many difficult circumstances - and without the classical/enlightened seat (it's amazing) - now that he's also developing that seat, I wonder what will result - something really magical I expect.

[Sapphire]

Amen Sandra.

[KarlR]

Marvellous stuff!

I'm very impressed with what I have seen of Michael Peace so far, and this sounds like an excellent opportunity to emphasise the benefits to the ridden side of his work.

[FRED]

Hello Heather,wonderfull news.I have always believed that there are no better teachers than those who can teach by example and expeirence, bringing a new light with them and casting away the poor.

I have only read and seen photos of Michael Peace work,what an inspiration that some one truly cares and doesn't walk away
from horses who need care and uderstanding.
I'm looking forward to seeing more of Michael in the dressage world:)

[Rachel C.]

Won't it be great to see dressage being done properly! I think it's great that he's going out there to show dressage can be done without force, hopefully he'll be noticed for it!

Rachel

[Heather]

HI All,

I am glad that you all approve of Mike's slight departure! He is a really unique horseman, and I am really pleased that we can work with and help each other. We are hoping to work more closely together to bring a holistic approach from all sides. With Mike, what you see is totally what you get- no sides to him, and I trust him implicitly never to use force.For one thing he is far too intelligent to do anything so futile, and he truly has saved so many horses that others have turned away or could do nothing with.

The nice thing is that we can learn from each other, and exchange knowledge, and what we both do compliments the other's beliefs and ideals. I'll keep you all posted!

Heather

[Tia]

I think it will be excellent if Michael Peace can do well in dressage. Unfortunately I think there is a bit of an attitude among many riders that alternative styles of riding or handling horses are ok for the hobby rider, but that competition riding is more serious and these methods wouldn't work. I have worked in a number of competition yards, and they all were terribly traditional, anything alternative was really frowned on.

I'm really looking forward to seeing how he does!

[KarlR]

I think that's a good point Tia.

For most of us here, "intelligent techniques" sound like a good option, but a lot of the older competition riders out there feel that being open to new ideas is a bad thing. For them, brute force was the way they were taught and has always worked (after a fashion) so why take a risk.

Actually demonstrating a horse actually performing better dressage through the use of such techniques could be one more step to general acceptance.

[Speedy]

I agree. Apparently David and Karen O'Connor have started doing Parelli with their event horses - it will be really interesting to see how they get on and what the rest of the competition crowd think of it.

[sweetbriar]

I agree too.

I only ride at a very novice level and what I see people doing to their horses and ponies is terrible. Most of what passes for 'riding club' success is based on abuse and cruelty. A lot of the young girls in my yard think that they are under dressed if they aren't wearing spurs.

Its always good to see successful riders competing and winning using kinder methods. I think the message needs to filter down to the grass roots level too. The 'kick and pull' method of teaching still seems to be prevalent at this level and that is how they expect you to ride.

[Kerry's Partner!!]

At the risk of receiving some awful criticism myself, but here goes!! I believe I am an advocate of EE and of ThinkE and I cannot dispute the awful sights and experiences many have had (including myself in the past). BUT, I can also say that that the many awful experiences don't necessarily mean that "awful" is the norm. I'd just like to add another perspective really.

Our yard which I trust implicitly with my own care and development - and that of my horse - is a BHS "where to ride" yard (else I wouldn't be there). The staff and some of the livery owners also compete. I have never witnessed there anything but respect for our equines (and they are put first and foremost) or anything which would make me doubt that my horse would be treated with anything but kindness and consideration (and some leadership when necessary).

[Heather]

Must say that I don't like some of the end results of Parelli'ed horses that I have seen- they look like zombies, spiritless and as if they had lost their individuality. Clicker Trained horses, however, looked as if they had their intelligence stimulated, rather than stifled and looked like eager dogs waiting for the next 'game'.

I have been suprised and somewhat shocked at witnessing the level of pressure that Natural Horsemanship devotees seem to find perfectly acceptable and found myself walking out of two clinics before I did the clinician a mischief. I would never, ever have subjected the horses to the things that they did, never mind in a clinic situation in front of an audience.

I always say that anyone can turn up at my yard at any time, without an appointment, and none of my staff or I would ever be doing anything to a horse that we would wish to hide, but when it is even done openly at a clinic, it does worry me.

Heather

[Speedy]

I've never been to a Parelli clinic, but I'm very intrigued as to what you saw - I was going to do this with my mare! Please PM me if you'd rather not post it - you don't need to mention names either

[Charlotte E]

Re Parelli methods - I have been applying the PNH method to my horses for about 18 months or so and am up to level 3 - unfortunately at this point Pat kind of does a huge jump to flying lead changes, canter half passes etc, alluding to classical theory but not making it clear enough. Hence I sought answers and luckily found EE!

However, I very nearly didn't make it to level 2 because of the reasons Heather alluded to. My mare is extremely sensitive and, instead of going DOWN a gear, the instructor was going UP - needless to say, Tig felt we were shouting at her and got very upset!!

I then found a superb Parelli instructor who was much, much softer and far more gentle. Interestingly, he put emphasis on softness and bending and was far more in line with other classical ideas I had read about. He has since fallen somewhat out of favour with the PNH camp....

The other issue that comes out is that a lot of people approach Parelli because they have a problem horse and they are novices. Novices, unfortunately, are not going to spot the tiny try the horse offers and therefore may apply more pressure than is in fact necessary - I know, I've been there.

So, what I am trying to say is that the system itself is great - in fact, I think the system provides great structure that clicker training can be applied to (and many people do, with great success). What IS a problem is people doing the same thing again and again and again - leading to the dullness Heather wrote about. We have to recognise when to move on and not bore our horses witless!

As to the instruction methods - I feel there is a bit of a split between harder approaches and those still teaching under the PNH banner who are much more sympathetic. I myself am interested in the tasks in level 3 for fun, but am not pursuing the string with vigour; something that leads to people overdoing tasks just to get them on video for assessment.

So, my feelings are that the system has a lot to offer, but that the drilling it appears to inspire is not ideal, nor is the over-use of pressure that some people can fall into the trap of applying.

Well, just my two-penneth

Charlotte

[Heather]

Thanks Charlotte for that thoughtful reply. A friend of mine was a PNH international clinician, but she has come out of the organisation, and like you will still use elements of the work, but has also found better ways.

Heather

[Jo]

I know this is a departure from the thread's original subject, but I would like advice on an are of training which is causing me prolems, not to mention stress! The two most prized book in my collection are Heather's Enlightened Equitation and the new Micheal Peace book, Think Like Your Horse. I have just finished Micheal's book and found it a breath of fresh air - I will watch his dressage career with interest - and I re-read Heather's book every few month, as I figure that if I have improved my riding between reads then the book will have something new to offer. (So far, I have been right!)

My problem is, I can apply much of what I read to well-schooled horses, but not to my mare! I bought her 2 years and 9 monts ago as a green but kindly 7 year old. She's a Welsh section D and had been a brood mare befor I bought her. I realise that, having just 2 months' riding experience under my belt, it was not going to a partnership made in heaven! But I fell for her and I felt that, as I keep her at the riding centre I learn at, I would be OK. And I have, to a degree.

Whenever I cannot achieve a relatively simple movement, such as leg yeild, with her I try to remember that keeping her on the track was once a big issue and getting her to ride in front was just not an option!

However, I do feel I am stuck - she doesn't seem to have progressed and I feel like a real beginner when I ride her. The biggest issue for us is left-rein turns. She sets her jaw against the turn and I have to fight my instincts not to yank her head around.

Can you suggest any exercises that will get my VERY stubborn mare (who is also stiff and finds left rein canter enormously challenging) to listen to the correct aids?

[Kerry's Partner!!]

You might not find this very stimulating because you're asking for something different in a way. The best advice I can give is to keep re-reading the book by Mike and Heather. If it's any additional help at all then I've found the last three weeks a bit of a struggle with my Section D. It seems 'though (if the book I've studied is correct) that this has not so much to do with the breed (albeit a very wise and determined bunch) but that Northern Hemisphere equine mares, at this time of the year, are working on half of their hormonal input so are experiencing megga PMT and they cannot help it. Since they're feeling really at odds with life - and I believed this to be the case with my mare - what I did (and it's worked thank goodness) is provided much more tender loving care, asked not very much, and (because I'm lucky to be where I am) had her ridden by people not phased by her tantrums in the way I am. Guess what - she's "normal" today.

You seem to be doing so very well, the only other thing I would say is to be proud of that and try not to rush things.

Good luck.

[Speedy]

kerry's partner, I hope you're right - my normally quite flexible mare is riding like a plank in the school at the moment - have temporarily given up and am just hacking her out - she is striding out like a goodun down the lanes (still feels stiff to flex though)

[Mossy]

Hi
Forgive me or asking but if she is 7 but very green are you asking her as a 7 year old or as a 3yr old which could be closer to her educational age? Connie is 6 going on three and she gets bored very easily in the school. Little and often and lots of variety. I often take Conn out on the moor ride and lead off Moss and she loves it. Hacking out on her own is still a learning experience and lots of "OOh EEr" but ride and lead she can just walk along, relax get used to the sights and sounds without having to worry about balancing a rider as well and she always comes back tail gently swinging and totally at peace with life. [It also exercises them both at once.]

[Jo]

That's a very interesting piece of information about northern hemisphere mares - I am sure it's correct! She does hack out well, too! I know that she's very sluggish when in season, and I don't push the issue and do give her as much affection as she will allow (I do get the "get off of me!" routine too!)

My problem with her is not related specifically to her seasons, though, although she is worse then. I think I just try too hard and want too much for her. I don't think I expect too much of her - I know she is green and the poor mare hasn't had much chance to excel with me as her "trainer" but the setting of the jaw is something I find difficult to counter. I don't know whether it's rudeness, habit or a genuine physical problem.

I have promised myself to work with her in the school for short periods of time three days a week. That way, I keep focused, don't get frustrated and concentrate of her finishing on a positive note. We'll hack out twice a week, too, to unwind (she's a fantastic hack - maybe I should accept that as her forte and forget about schooling?)

Thanks for the response.

[Kerry's Partner!!]

Don't give up. Kerry has been the same for me for about 18 months (and she was 10 when I bought her). The thing is that with Kerry her leaning was to do with me mostly rather than her. Just in the last few weeks I've experienced the lightness thing - and it is so wonderful. I've also learned that I get this because of many more things than my hands really. In our case it was the "whole" riding thing and the "whole" approach thing. That's why I suggested that you stick with Heather's book and with Michael's too. I'm afraid that for me none of this came quickly. I tried too hard too and found it really frustrating but I've had to develop a different "feel" and "muscle stretch" etc. Also, Kerry has needed to lose loads of fat and begin to develop the right muscles.

Kerry is a brilliant teacher now she can carry herself. She leans every time I get things wrong (and can do so to be awkward too). The thing is I needed to be able to get her off her forehand as well as develop "softness" in my hands. The "softness" I think is a lot to do with your whole body - especially shoulders, elbows and wrists. Getting her off her forehand meant for me to learn how to carry myself, absorb her movement and let her through with my legs. Sorry this isn't equine vocabulary but I'm trying to impart my understanding of what we've had to learn to do.

In summary I'm saying that for me it has taken an absolute age - and I'm still at that I've got it now I've lost it stage. It's worth waiting for I can assure you. If you were ever able to learn from Heather or any of her EE trainees it would take you far less time than it has taken me. On the other hand if you cannot do this then I can say that although sometimes I've felt really frustrated and felt I should give up I believe that the voyage of discovery Kerry and I have had has also been really wonderful - and I'm sure this is a never ending thing.

Hope this has helped.

[Jo]

Thanks!

I know what you mean about northern hemisphere mares and all that! Mine fits the description! Schooling her is like wading through toffee at the moment - ah, if only she would go forward freely in the school environment! Ah well...

[ros]

Jo - don't know if it will help, but during a schooling session with Merlin Heather did say that once we got him going away from the leg by doing some basic lateral work I would find it easier to bend him (he wasn't too keen on corners - better now!). Also, to encourage flexion to the inside, lift your inside hand a fraction and squeeze the rein once or twice to ask for relaxation of the jaw.

[Jo]

Thanks, Ros, I will try that trick.

I rode her yesterday in a lesson and she tried her heart out, managing to bend reasonably well, but I felt I had a fimer grip on the rein that I should have needed. I work hard at having good hands as, like most people it seems, I do have a naturally strong left hand and I am determined to soften it (even if I resort to hypnotherapy!)

I try it out when I have her in the school on her own and can do my own thing, instead of having to do a circle NOW!

[Kerry's Partner!!]

I know what you mean Jo. About 5 months ago I found that I needed just to ride on my own in the school so that I could work it all out and have a go in my own time. I took as long or as little time as I liked and it helped an awful lot. Now I really need my lessons again but I'm sure I'll need to revert to my own time to practise again before I'm ready to learn more.

[Joy Esau]

Following on from comments made by Charlotte E and Heather

Charlotte E – that was very interesting what you said about Parelli. It’s the first thing I’ve read which sort of makes sense in my mind the logic of the two opposing camps of “for” and “against”. I can imagine at some point Parelli ceases to fulfil its original gaols. As an aside I have recently decided to put more emphasis on my relationship with my mare as opposed to concentrating solely on the ridden work (have purchased “Dancing with Horses” yesterday ~ initial reaction not as user friendly as “EE” but need to sit down and read it properly).

So I am extremely interested in, at what point does pressure become unacceptable? Presumably people who work with PNH started off with the best of intentions but some of them at an extreme level, somehow lost their way. If I am going to spend more time working on the ground with my horse, I’d like to think this wouldn’t happen to me. Hypothetical illustrations of unreasonable pressure would make it clear if I would ever be in danger of making unreasonable demands. It’s pretty clear to me what unreasonable demands are in ridden work but ground work is new territory.

Thanks

Joy

[FRED]

Hope you don't mind me having a little say.
Today we watched a demonsration and display by Parelli UK.
I,like the majority of people who watched were spell bound.
T

[FRED]

Hope you don't mind me having a little say.
Today we watched a demonsration and display by Parelli UK.
I,like the majority of people who watched were spell bound.
It was a new experience for me and I have to admit what I saw was exellent and the riders too, it was very interesting to listen to what they were saying.
Fred.

[ros]

Hi Joy

You'd have to say, wouldn't you, that any form of pressure becomes unacceptable the instant the horse either ceases to understand or becomes unable for any reason to fulfil what's being asked of it (or what it's being told to do!)? That can happen at any stage of its training, and the difficult bit as always is judging accurately exactly when that moment has arrived.

Maybe, in the Enlightened sense, "pressure" is the wrong word to use - it has negative connotations. I know sometimes a horse might need a little bit of positive encouragement to take that next step, but it's a bit more subtle. And of course, you've still got to be able to judge when to give it a rest!