Rising trot and reins!!

[Sapphire]

Wondering if someone can help!! :D. In rising trot I find I am constantly fumbling with the reins. It drives me nuts!! I remember in ros' post on Merlin and his progress and someone mentioning that you can have a contact which is too light.

My teacher is always telling me to have a straight line from to bit to elbow but I am worried my hands will chop up and down, and sometimes they feel too high, like I'm in Saddle seat!! And also she tells me to sit back more, but then I feel I come crashing down into the saddle and the rise feels a little perculiar.

Oh and then in canter my hands tend to 'flap' (big cringe). What riding faults in general cause these ugly depressing problems? I do try and bring my elbow underneath my body which is then quite comfy, but my teacher then say 'shorten the reins' to which elbow starts getting 'dragged' out again! Maybe I should bring my elbows under and have a stronger contact on the reins. I don't know, so help!!! Urgh, so many faults, poor horse

[Sapphire]

Nobody knows anything???

[H & Bailey]

try keeping your hands down almost onto the front of the saddle if it helps when you canter tuck your fingers under the front of the saddle this will help keep your hands still and you can pull yourself into the saddle too.Have you tried tying a knot in the riens so you dont fiddle to much you cant drop them as easily either.

[Sapphire]

I find tying the rains b***** annoying!! So much so I refuse point blank to do it!! Stubborn me!! I do slot my fingers under the saddle but I feel this causes me to take a very strong contact on the reins. I don't know.

[Lesha]

In rising trot try lightly touching your little fingers to the front of the saddle. And then concentrate on opening and closing the elbow as you rise and sit, so the hands stay in the same place and the contact is consistent. It's helped me, anyway :D

[Chantal]

Practice doing it without reins - knot them in front of you but try and keep your hands in riding position. You might be using them to help balance yourself, so practicing this should help you to develop independent hands. I did this recently - I used to flap my hands around loads, especially with transitions, but my instructor made me do a whole lesson without them and it made a massive difference.

[Elfin]

hold the reins at the buckle, and give your horse it's head ( get what I mean??) then do rising trot. If you bump back in the saddle you are using your hands to balance, if not, you is fine!

sorry if that didn't make any sense at all!:)

[Sapphire]

Makes complete sense. I don't really rely on my reins, I just find I fiddle with them at times, maybe it's where I don't want to hang onto his mouth so I let them go to slack?? What do you think about the sitting back thing???? It almost feels like I am behind the movement I think. Or maybe it's where I have ridden so bad !!

I am better with the reins when the trot has been established. Maybe I should shorten the reins and just make sure I am not using them to balance me. I am using a fitness ball to help teach me to find my balance, I hold my hands like I would the reins and just try. It's very funny!!!

[myEllie]

With the posting thing, you should be slightly thrusting your hips forward when you come up. I know over here, a lot of Quarter Horse riders post straight up and down. They are really behind the motion and it looks horrible. I think it comes from most of them starting out riding western and then just throwing an english saddle on their horse and just going in a hunt seat class without any real training of how to ride. Most judges don't like it, actually judges hate it, but sometimes that is all they have to judge and they have to place someone. Don't get yourself into a habit of doing this.

[Heather]

I know what you mean MyEllie, but never mind the QH riders we have plenty of them doing it like that over here on any horse! Sapphire, the advice that the others have given you about keeping your hands low at this point is correct. Another tip is to allow your forearms to actually rest against your hip bones, this stabilises the whole lower arm and hands and is actually perfectly Classical.

Heather

[Sapphire]

I have a slight problem with that! My teacher won't let me!! I'm always told to lift my hands higher to maintain a straight line from bit to elbow! So what does one do?!! Could I send you a video of me riding Heather? I'll happily pay a fee, just to get some advice on my riding. My teacher is good, and always tries to encourage a classical position and all that, but there is little things which get at me and I feel I can't always have a say in it.

[Heather]

HI Sapphire,

I do video assessments anyway- email me privately at heather@eclipse.co.uk and we can sort something out.

Heather

[clipclop]

I used to fiddle with my reins too and they would get too long.

I found the best thing to to was to firstly find the length of rein you are comfortable with and also still have control. Them hold them with one hand only. You can't fiddle with them then. My horse certainly appreciated it.

When you rise in the trot just think of you hips coming towards the front of the saddle. A lot of people rise to high and think of it as a stand up sit down process.

A long time ago when i was a lot fitter my instructor took away my stirrups and asked me to try and do rising trot. I thought i was hopeless. My instructir said I was fine, the point of the exercise was for me to see how little i needed to rise in the first place. (I used to rise far too high which put me out of balance with my horse)

Hope this helps

good luck

[Stella2]

I'm so glad I found this thread. I have just been told by a friend constructively that when I rise to the trot, my hands go up and down - essentially then despite my best efforts at having kind hands, I must be balancing on them! I will try the little fingers under the strap. Heather, I must have misunderstood your suggestion about the forearm on the hip bone as it sounds as if the forearm would move when I rise from the saddle. Could you clarify?

[Mossy]

I find that getting rising trot right comes from balance which depends on lower leg position. If my legs flap then so does the rest of me!!! I find trotting down the lane one handed riding Moss whilst leading Conn gives me so much else to think about that I leave my legs where they are supposed to be. Mind you having one of Heather's saddles so my legs know, as oppose to my brain knowing, where they ARE supposed to be helps immensely even when I am not using it.

PS I would not recommend ride and lead as a method of tuition there is too much else that can go wrong!!!

[ros]

Absolutely, Mossy - it's all in the balance. In Sapphire's original post she said her instructor was telling her to be more upright, but that she felt that made her come crashing down in the saddle (and of course she was right); the natural consequence of that is that you're behind the movement, so you find you have to lurch forward to rise again, and the whole thing becomes unbalanced. So of COURSE you can't keep your hands still! If your body is in balance, your seat is independent of the reins.

[cvb]

Sapphire

Is there any chance to have a lunge lesson ? Then you can work on yourself with a bit more focus, while someone else steers etc ! :D

When you are rising in trot, you need to remember that the horse is moving forwards while you are in the air. So if you just rise straight up and down, you will come down out of balance.

Ask your instructor which BIT of you she wants further back. Your shoulders ? Your hips ?

Your hips should swing a little to come up and out with the horses movement. But perhaps she is trying to say that your shoulders are staying too far forward throughout the rise ? It is worth getting some clarification.

As others have said, it is difficult to keep your hands still if the rest of you is a little out of balance.

Think of keeping your elbows quite loose so they absorb the movement from your torso and let your hands stay 'still' (in relation to the horses mouth) while your upper body moves. She may be asking you to raise your hands because you are fixing both hand AND elbow down, which will prevent the elbow working like a hinge.

[Heather]

Sorry to disagree Cathy, but if you watch me ride, my elbows don't act as a hinge- my arms and hands don't move at all in trot, or in canter and only a small amount in anything other than a collected walk.

The pelvis should be making an equal arc forward and back in total sync and rhythm with the horse- i.e, the rider is not pushing the pelvis more than the horse is throwing it, so that you are the same amount of time at the top of the rise and sit phase with an equal swing in between.

If you are being taught to sit upright in rising trot in the sit phase, Saopphire, I wish your instructor could stick her hand under the cantle region of the saddle bewteen the saddle and the simulator, and I would ride it with an upright pelvis in the sit phase, or with my pelvis a little forward, so that I land with it ready to recieve the forward thrust of the horse's back. She woud feel the difference between getting her hand well and truly squashed when the pelvis lands upright, and not feeling my weight in the saddle at all, with my pelvis slightly forward.Now, if you were a horse, which do you think you woudl prefer?!!


Heather

[cvb]

Hmmm. Disagreeing with Heather - this could get me into trouble ! ;)

Heather, I think I know where the difference is. If I remember right, your description of rising trot talks about the top of the body staying the same height throughout each phase of the rise ? I remember haviong trouble working out how that could be, bio-mechanically. But if I just accept it as so, then of course there is no work for the elbow to do - and your hands stay steady. (I have always thought of the shoulder movement being a very gentle sinewave In reality I have not seen (m)any people that could rise without some variation in shoulder height relative to saddle.)

But if, for a moment, we accept that someone has not yet mastered the art of rising trot, and their upper body does have some vertical movement to it, then the elbow can act to dampen the effect on the riders hands and the horses mouth.

Simplistically speaking, if I stand in my stirrups, then my shoulders are further above the saddle then when I am sitting. But I want my hands to stay in the same place - how ? by opening the elbow joint. When I sit, the distance decreases again and the elbow joint closes a little.

I know you are not making this extreme a movement in rising trot (and certainly not standing in your stirrups), but I got the impression Sapphire was appealing for some remedial help, to get through a bad phase and move forward in skill. Understanding the need for a soft elbow could be part of the solution.

It is much easier to ride with a still hand on a horse which is balanced, straight, forward, active. It is much more difficult on a horse with poor balance, uneven tempo, limited acceptance of the bit, unsteady head carriage etc. It takes a lot more skill to ride a horse like this with still hands. Yet perversely, most of us 'unskilled' riders tend to be riding the less well educated horses, rather than schoolmasters.

I have no problem with explaining the ultimate goal to people, but we should also be realistic that there will be interim levels of skill that they will pass through on their way there.

[Stella2]

I'm thinking an equisimulator may be the way to go here. Heather, I sent you an email about my mare needing me to develop a more balanced seat! and possibly travelling to you if no such simulator is available further north. Did you get it okay?

[Shady_Indigo]

Umm maybe this might help!

[cvb]

Thanks Shady, thats what I was trying to describe !

[Shady_Indigo]

thats how i was taught to ride, none of this moving hands up and down bizzo, my mare would throw me off in half a second flat if i moved my hands that much.
i think being soft on the horses mouth is more important than keeping a straight line from the elbow to the mouth...

[Marie-ann]

Hi everyone, hope you don't mind me butting in here.

I think I know what Heather is getting at (correct me if I am wrong). To do rising trot you are actually only moving the pelvis forward and backwards - you keep you shoulders still because it is your pelvis that is absorbing the forward thrust. If you almost rest your elbows on the pelvis bone, your hands should stop moving up and down ie the pelvis simply tips to absorb the movement (I'm not sure you would stop a small amount of movement backwards and forwards though, but if you are rising with your pelvis you shouldn't be moving it too far forward unless you are on a horse with a very big stride).

An exercise I use is to get the rider to drop the reins (on the lunge of course) and take the stirups away. You can then get the rider to feel for the thrust through the horses back to push your pelivis forwards. I usually start the rider doing this with the hands on their hips or head to help them find their centre of gravity. Once they are rising well with no stirups I then get them to put their arms in the correct position - I've usually found this helps stop the hands moving moving around.

It would probably be good to get a lunge lesson or have a lesson the simulator to help you work through this.

Mx

[Marie-ann]

ooppps..

when I say pelvis bone, I mean the top of the pelvis.

Mx

[Lesha]

An other thing which may limit the ability of some of us to reah the ideal (i.e. riding like Heather) is saddle design. In a Heather saddle I can just swing my pelvis forwards with the movement of the horse, only "rising" a minute amount to clear the saddle. But in some of the, shall we say, less than ideal ;) , deeper seated saddles I've ridden in that would have resulted in a great deal of pain :eek: So in that case more of a vertical movement is unfortunately necessary too, for self-preservation. And in those instances I've found resting my little fingers on the front of the saddle and absorbing any necessary vertical movement in my elbows to be the best method for the horse. But in an ideal world if I'm riding along behind a hedge, a person on the other side of the hedge who could only see my shoulders and head SHOULD have no idea whether I'm riding a walk, trot or canter. If one could "remove" the horse from a film of Heather riding, you wouldn't know she wasn't just sitting at halt! Oh well, I can dream :D

[Marie-ann]

Hi Lesha

Yes totally agree with you - saddles are the bane of my life. Very few people I teach do have saddles that sit people in the 'correct' position so it is really a case of doing what is best for horse and rider. It really is amazing how much a well made saddle can make a difference to things like this.

If someone has a less than desirable saddle I will sometimes get them to ride bare back doing the exercises that I talk about above - this way they are able to get a 'feel' of what I mean and possibly apply it as best they can when the saddle is present again.

Mx

[Tina J]

I took a friend of mine to the indoor arena I hire, and lent her my dressage saddle. She rode much better and stayed with trot. Usually she gets well left behind. Her saddle, though not brilliant in terms of stirrup bar positions, is also too big for her. She is a tiny lady and has an 18 inch saddle because that is what came with the horse!! A lot of schools also use 17 1/2 or 18 inch saddles on their "adult" horses and if you are a smaller person Saphire then it could be that the saddle simply doesn't fit you. I can recommend saving for a trip to Devon and a course on Heather's simulator by the way.:D

[Marie-ann]

Hi Tina

I think sometimes it can be quite hard to get a saddle to fit both horse and rider. My horse has a really long back and I am only quite small (size 8). My horse needs and 18" saddle but that is massive for me.

I spent months looking for a saddle that fitted all my requirement (it is sooooo hard to find them!) and I ended up with a Bentley saddle (sorry Heather!). It is 18" to fit my horse but the seat is smaller to fit me - it is wonderful!

I can only thik of a handful of saddles that would have fitted my requirements and that is out of hundreds of differnent makes!

Another thing, quite often at riding schools the saddles don't fit the horse correctly and often slope backwards due to lack of flocking at the back - this also takes its toll on the rider, not to mention the poor horse!

Mx

[Tina J]

I do know what you mean Marie. Took me ages to find a saddle to fit me and my TB and we're not that odd (me small and dumpy him tall and prominent withers - both common conformations in humans and horses!). The other reason for lending my friend my saddle in fact, was to try to bring home to her that since her Welsh cob has been dieted, her saddle is no longer that brilliant a fit for the horse, let alone being too big for her. My saddle was a much better fit on the poor chap, so hopefully I can convince her to look around for something that will fit both of them a lot better. My "Ideal" dressage saddle is the best I could get, in terms of fit and position for me, but I am saving hard for one of the Barry Swain/Heather Moffat made to measure jobs - no excuses for me in terms of position once I get one of those!

Thinking of which Saphire, I also use a HM seat-saver, which I take with me if I am going to sit in a strange saddle. You might find that investing in one of those helps you. It will "fill" the saddle a bit, if the saddle is too large, and put you in a more comfortable position so that you can concentrate on your contact and not have to think too much about your lower body at the same time. Just a thought anyway.

[cvb]

with reference to the diagram Shady posted:

Even if you are only rising a little, you are changing the angle of the knee joint, swinging the thigh forward as the hip moves forward.

Even though it is a small movement, if nothing else moves then your balance and centre of gravity will be affected,as the alignment you had when sitting has been disturbed.

We keep on reminding people how a tiny movement in the hand means quite a big movement in terms of the horses mouth. Yet we expect a small movement in hips to be ignored ?!

Say I only move my hips vertically by 2 or 3 cm, that is STILL 2 or 3 cm movement in my hand - an enormous amount when you put it in the context of the horses mouth.

If I am in sitting trot, then my pelvis is simply tipping to absorb movement. But when I am rising, it is doing more than that. Otherwise I will not be leaving the seat of the saddle and I'm not rising.

[CityGirl]

Perhaps I'm confused but in rising trot - aren't you actually rising? In the past, I was tipping my pelvis forward but my instructor said I was coming too far forward & in fact not really "up" enough and as a result, was putting weight on his forehand. While I understand that you dont' want just the "up-down" motion, there does have to be an element of that as well in the posting trot. If that's the case - wouldn't you always be able to detect some degree of movement? And assuming there is some degree of movement - are you giving forward/up with your hands equal to the amount the horse is moving forward/up? That way while you are moving your hands to an extent, the pressure on the horse stays equal?
Forgive me if I sound ignorant - I'm still trying to figure out how to do these movements in the most classical/forgiving way possible.

[Lesha]

look at the photo of Heather on the front of the Enlightened Equitation book. (you can see it on the Featured Books page in the NewRider shop page). I think (hope!) I'm correct in saying she's at the "top" of rising trot here. Not much "up" movement in evidence there!......

[Dizzy]

I read this post last night and thought about it while I was riding today. Over the past 6 months my mare has moved home twice, and is abit sticky about going forward. Once we pass a certain point she's all for going forward - faster than I want. We don't actually develop a nice rhythm until we've been out for about 20 minutes.

Today she was especially sticky (2 handsome geldings to pass in 2 separate fields on the road side) so I pushed her up into trot. I got the most horrible, hollow, static trot you could imagine. She totally ignored my legs, so I picked her up with the whip across my leg, she replied with a fly buck, so I gave her sharp whack behind my leg. It worked, we went forward into a horrible, hollow trot.

It was at this point that I thought of this thread, though I did slightly shorten my riens, my hands did not particullarly move, I was encouraging her to take a contact by sponging the riens, but I was influencing her mainly with dropping my wieght through relaxed legs and rising slightly slower than her stride.

When you sit up tall, with an open chest and have your arms drop relaxed to your elbows, they do sit by nature sit on your hips. To hold the riens your forearms point in the right direction.

But to keep your hands 'still' you must sit in balance and allow your arms to 'drop' from shoulders, remain relaxed from your elbow and be relaxed through your wrist and hand.

Plus your legs should fill your rien contact.

I have been riding for the best part of 30 years, the best part of 20 of them without true balance. The difference being balanced and being able to remain relaxed makes to riding, is astounding.

Lesley

[Stella2]

Lesley, how did you progress to riding with balace after 20 years without?

[Dizzy]

Stella, I was first 'taught' to ride when I was about 8 - at a local riding 'school' kick meant go, reins were steering and brakes.

I was obsessed with horses, and as soon as I learned who owned them locally, I plagued them until they gave way and let me help, which eventually led to me riding out. But I never got proper tuition. I've always been pretty confident, and though my position probably left alot to be desired, I did have quite a secure seat - though like anyone else I've had my fair share of spills.

I spent my late teens backing and hacking out youngsters. I then bought my own - an almost 2 yr old, Blue, who I backed and hacked - he was diagnosed with navicular at 8 and destroyed at 10.

It was then a lass I worked with said she had mare I could ride. I was still up to the eyes in vets bills from Blue (no insurance) so I jumped at the chance to ride.

This is when I met Dizzy, a 14.1 ArabXWelsh mare, bought from a horse sale. She was a bag of nerves, had absolutely no trust in humans whatsoever - head shy was an understatement, if you touched her, you could watch what little flesh she had crawl. But she was adorable.

To ride her was a nightmare, the slightest touch of your legs and she cantered on the spot, head in the air and completely hollow. Pull on the riens, she grabbed the bit and ran, but initially not moving, she dished for England, and would stamp her front feet into the ground so hard, then all of a sudden unleash and gallop. I was never in control and didn't have the knowledge to make any better of her. Oddly enough she never frightened or threw me, but I was totally frustrated that I couldn't influence her.

I'd been told of a local woman, who owned a livery and did teach - but selectively, so I chanced my arm and rode up there. I'll never forget her face the day we dished into her yard, I honestly think, she couldn't believe her eyes.

In my ignorance, I asked her if she could help me to school Dizzy - not thinking for one moment my riding was at fault. Did I have some hard lessons to come!!

We ended up with Diz at livery at her yard, and hours and hours of lessons, correcting my tipped forward position, putting me in balance and teaching Dizzy to accept my legs. I felt like a fish out of water for weeks - I did actually dread my lessons, I had until then, sent her on with very delicate legs, into a restricted rien, while at the same tipping forward.

She was telling me to do the exact opposite, though a part of me trusted her, there was also part of me saying 'you stupid woman, look at what I'm sitting through' - luckily it was an indoor school, so the carting off was restricted. And as I learned to balance and use my legs effectively without relying on the rien, Dizzy slowly began to respond - it was a truely amazing feeling.

Dizzy was never an easy horse to ride, she was an incredibly sensitive soul. But it was definitely my riding ability before I had lessons that made her worse.

So my learning to balance was a steep learning curve for me, at first I found it very hard and disheartening, Dizzy wasn't very forgiving, if I accidently caught her mouth or sat down too hard, she'd revert back instantly, and I'd have a mountain to climb to regain her trust and respect.

So there you have it, Although I'd ridden for about 20 yrs prevoius to meeting her - it was Dizzy that instigated me into taking lessons. She is also the mother, to Breeze, my little mare - so not only did she teach me most of what I know, she also gave me my lovely young mare - to carry on in her footsteps:D

Lesley

[Sapphire]

Wow. Look at the response, sorry I took so long to get back.

Well I haven't actually ridden since I first opened this thread *hears people gasp in horror*. But I have started Belly Dancing which is supposed to be brilliant for horse riders! So maybe there will so improvement.... well it's not going to help the rising trot and reins thing. I have pretty much realised that I'm not going to improve unless I drag myself down to Heathers... and I have £120 now.... £30 more for the deposit and I can pretty much knock on Heathers door! :D In the meantime I had better start riding to prepare for the two day body shock! And to get a grip on things in general.

I just find it absolutely maddening that I can do a nice sitting trot (it looks nice and feels nice and is my favorite pace. Though a couple of times it's gone out of the window and I revert back to my old, horrible disgusting trot, which just makes me want to cry!). And I know what I should be doing in rising trot, but my teacher just won't let me, how is one able to progress with this situation? Oh a sidenote, I have moved in July out of the County, so I am no longer with this teacher. But that doesn't mean it's not going to be a problem when I sign up to another riding 'school' again.

Right on to peoples advice:

H & Bailey: I find trying to tuck my fingers under the saddle is just too much, what with trying to get the (often unwilling, can't blame him) horse to canter, and it makes me feel extremely out of control, and I basically just freak. And everyone knows that freaking out while riding is a BAD thing! And the tying the knot in the reins, pet hate, drives me nuts, I'd rather just drop the darn things altogether.... Terrible aren't? Is it just me who hates these things? And should I just lump it and do it? Or am are my instincts right, it just feels wrong.

Lesha: the term of opening and closing the elbows is unknown to me. *thinks* in fact, couldn't doing a bad opening and closing, lead to flapping? Or am I barking up the wrong tree.... again? I don't think balancing on the reins is too much of an issue, in fact I often go along on a long contact while in the school to give the horse a break from the whole bit-thing, or drop the reins altogether! So I am comfortable without reins. I'll have to watch my video lesson and see how still my hands are (the one where I was pretty much left to do my own thing, now that was nice!! If, I remember correctly, I think my hands were pretty low)

I have never heard of resting the elbows on the hips, it sounds comfortable *tries it in the chair*. Hmm, yes I'm going to have to have a sneaky go while my teacher is not looking (and when is the teacher not looking during a private lesson?!) Thanks for the suggestion, Heather.

ClipClop: Hmm one handed riding, another thing to try! Sounds logical, I think I done it once on a youngster (who was still trying to find his 'gears'). But I have no video tape of this..... oooh no, I might actually. I shall definitely give it a good crack though, thank you. I do rise too high, in fact I do that awful up-down thing, I know it's really bad, I know I'm doing wrong. Sheesh I got so much to work on!:rolleyes: Rising trot without stirrups, I know a lot of teachers hate this, sitting trot yes, but never ever rising trot without stirrups.... I'm surprised I have learnt anything! Again another thing to try... not quite sure how.

Mossy: lower leg position. I'm doomed then! lol! Dear me. I got rid of my rubber riding boots (actually my mom very kindly threw them out, accidently) so perhaps I shall be a little bit better in my new Jod. Boots... even if only a tiny bit.

CVB: Lunge lessons, yes..... I just hope I can get a horse which goes ok on the lunge, one memory of a particular lunge lesson is not very nice :eek: As for which bit she wanted back, hips, shoulder, head everything! I have never felt so uncomfortable and it was truely a up-down, crash-back-into-the-saddle-and-pull-yourself-up rising trot. I remember having back ache after, dispite having Heathers Seatbone saver. Poor horse. And she insisted on my shoulders being right back, and if I'm correct by having them forward every so slightly, it makes the trot much softer on the horses back. I'm sure that's what Heather showed in Video No. 1. It's all so DEPRESSING! Heather, I don't need to be a horse to know which is better, my butt and back already knew the answer to that!

In regards to the shoulders moving during rising trot. In Belly dance we do all sorts of movements of the hips, some very up and down in motion, and the head and shoulders never ever move, dispite the hips going up, down, side to side and front to back and in upward circles! It's basically isolating the movement and using the rest of the body to absorb the shock. So I guess that applies to the rising trot and movement of the shoulders.

And as for saddle design, the only way I can improve things is using the Seatbone saver (which enabled me to have a second beautiful canter experience, albeit, only a couple of strides). It helps a lot, and it's all I can do. Tina J: Oh I'm saving I call tell you that, it is my life goal, and come hell or high water I'm going to try me best to do something about it this year. I feel it's the only thing which is going to help my riding... and keep me riding.

Well enough of my ranting. I'd better get into contact with Heather seeming as the funds are nearly ready for the deposit and spring is coming up! Thanks all for you suggestions, I'm going to have a busy lesson... when I finally book up! :D

[Stella2]

Dizzy, thats a great story. I often find it difficult and frustrating being a new rider trying to establish some security in my seat. I often envy folk who have been riding a long time, but I guess to try to re-learn after many years must be at least as difficult at times.

[cvb]

Sapphire, if you open and close your shoulder joints, then you will be doing a lovely funky chicken impression. :D

But softening your elbow joints so they can absorb some movement should not lead to flapping. Remember the idea is for them to act as dampeners - not actively force them to move. So the joint is reacting to something else, not initiating the movement.

[Dizzy]

Your arms should drop relaxed from your open shoulders, so they should sit almost on top/aside of your hips. There should be no tension what so ever. Before you pick up the riens sit up tall, open your shoulders, tuck in your lower tummy, ensure your seat bones are facing down, your hips are open, thighs relaxed, your knees are low and relaxed, calfs, ankle, heel and toes are relaxed - but supporting your seat. In other words, though you want as much of your lower body in contact with your horse, you want to be sat astride, not sitting on. You want to be in control of your own body weight.

When you pick up the rien, you want a straight line from your elbow,through your hand to the bit. The contact should be light but elastic. Before you set off, have your legs in contact and at the same time gently sponge the riens alternatively, until the horse gives, drops his head and takes the contact, you can then (at the same time) praise, give the rien, use more leg and walk on.

If its a balance/relaxation problem with your posting trot, learning to balance stood up in the stirrups whilst trotting is brillaint. It really doesn't have anything to do with your hands. If your balanced you will be able to ride with your hands above your head, out at shoulder hieght, or hands under your bum.

You will get there in the end, be patient and relax.

Lesley

[ros]

Some of us went on a ride together at the weekend, and I found it took me about half an hour to get the hang of rising on a saddle with normal stirrup bar placement. (I've got a saddle with the bars set further back, as they should be.) The only way I could do it was to consciously push my lower legs back, and lean well forward. It certainly made me appreciate my own saddle!

If you can easily stand up in the stirrups without having to lean forward and/or grab the pommel, you should be able to rise easily in balance in trot. If you can't, then your saddle isn't helping you at all and you shouldn't get too depressed, because it isn't your fault!

[vjwuk]

I have just read all the replies to this thread and although I have nothing useful to offer (being a 3yr novice!?! thank god for patient instructors) can I ask a question seeing as every one has so much good advice to give.

I have a niggling feeling that I am riding with my stirrups too short. Reason being the comment that "if you can stand in your stirrups without having to pull on the pommel etc". I am sure I wouldn't be able to.

Can having too short stirrups make your feet bounce out, through, under and every where except where they should be? and can it make it hard to get the weight down in your heel?

HELP

p.s. I also have a habit of fiddling so you are not alone but I'm working on it....... and everything else!

[ros]

If you stand up straight on the floor, then bend your hip, knee and ankle joints to squat down as low as you can, the important bits stay in line and you can concertina yourself down and stand back up again fairly easily without lurching around all over the place - at least I hope you can!

If your stirrup bars are in the best place to suit you, you should be able to do this in the saddle too. If they aren't, you won't be able to do it easily whatever length your stirrups are.

For the sort of normal riding we do every day (that is, leaving aside the x-country dare-devil stuff) that's a pretty good guide.

As for your feet having a life of their own, I suspect that if you felt balanced in your seat your legs would probably tend to look after themselves. But of course there are bound to be other factors, like how supple you are, whether or not the horse you ride suits your shape and so on.