So - how much?

[Crystal Fire]

Following on from the Strasser thread - how much pain and stress do you think would be acceptable to you in order to get your horse cured of something?
For example, I have had my mare since she was 6 months old. She had some physical troubles which meant just too many trips to equine hospital and stabling 24/7. Now she just doesn't tolerate having the door shut on her (although she's happy if it's open). She throws herself at it, weaves, and crashes round the box. I've managed to persuade a vet to operate at my yard and let me deal with post-op care myself, having her in an open stable with a small pen. But if there was ever a situation where complete box rest couldn't be avoided, maybe she had to be cross-tied to keep her still - she would be pts.
On the Strasser thread I've also questioned how long I would leave a horse suffering pain, even if I knew that eventually (in months) they might come right. I'd know that, but I wouldn't be able to explain to the horse, and the horse would only know confusing continuing suffering.
So - over to you good folk :)

[Mehitabel]

it is very hard, isn't it. petal also had a long period of box rest after a severe injury - about 6 months complete boxrest, then about another 6 working up slowly to being out 24/7 again. she seemed to cope ok at the time, but now she becomes very very stressed and unhappy if she has to stay in. she's not mine, so it wouldn't be my decision, but i'd worry a lot about another extended rest period with the effect it might have mentally.

there are so many variables though. quality of life at the time, environment, company, how the horse responds to being in, what the prospects are for a happy life afterwards. we had a mare who broke a leg, had nearly a year in as well, a lot of pain. had she been a gelding she'd have had no hope of a good life, but as a mare and a future broodmare we felt it was worthwhile as she'd be able ot be happy later - which she was - but it was close.

[shoniedaspony]

also-need to weigh up the effects of the levels of stress. when i first got my horse, he boxwalked constantly, up and down the small area without bedding at the front of his box when stabled at night (we didnt have place for him to live out for a while) after a few months he calmed down and started going on his bed, lying down etc. now he is fine. never tried to escape, just constantly boxwalked. this summer he was box reest for a month-now that was to let his wound close up and heal-helped by minimal walking around. if he still boxwalked continuously, then keeping him in may have done more harm than good, as he would have still been walking around, but stressed, turning sharply etc
thankfully he coped ok, but it may have been a v difficult decision.

i worry that some people who support things like barefoor trimming for example have an attitude that a horses feet will toughen up eventually, and there is no need for boots etc, or even replacing shoes if the horse is becoming footsore/lame. my horse is barefoot and is sore over the gravel on the yard sometimes, but i figure walking over it for 20m a day is all he is going to do, so putting shoes back on isn't neccessary. but some people believe that you should never replace shoes etc as the horses feet will toughen eventually. just not something i can justify in my head in afraid!

[Stella2]

I thought about this a few years ago when a friend's horse was to be on box rest for at least 6 months. At the time I said (gently and whilst being supportive) that If it was mine, I'd have a horse PTS rather than inflict that on it. Anyway he went through it for about 8 months and he was very stressed, but to see him well and happy since made it less clear cut. Then subsequently, I bought Flora (2 1/2 years ago). I love her so much that I can no longer give a clear answer to some situations like this. The idea of having her PTS can bring a tear to my eye if I think about it for more than a moment!

I do know though that if her quality of life ever becomes poor, I will do that for her and, to answer your central question if she was going to be in serious pain (rather than discomfort) for months that couldn't be controlled by medication, in all conscience, I would have to let her go. thankfully, I will never be faced with the question of box rest because she has a history of severe, recurrant lymphagitis. The only thing that controls it is living out - she is in a barn at night in the winter, but the point is she has to keep moving. Box rest would kill her anyway, so I'll never have to make that decision.

I was faced with a related decision just over a year ago. She went very lame and lots of investigations eventually revealled a particulary nasty sidebone. The two recommended treatments were box rest or surgery. The surgery didn't have a great success rate and the prognosis was questionable. It would settle down somewhat when she wasn't ridden. I decided that I wouldn't put her through the surgery because it wasn't worth the distress to her if the prognosis was questionable, so with a heavy heart, I turned her away to see how it went. She improved enough in the field and I was prepared for her to have an early retirement rather than put her through it. An aside to this is that the vet suggested I try her on the lunge, then under saddle in March this year, I did and to date she has remained sound and in work :)

[Crystal Fire]

I can't decide how deep to analyse this, maybe that is because I am only too aware of the situation with my mare.
But, from a human perspective, the horse was very stressed for 8 months, but now he's fine so it was worth it. But is it the same form a horse perspective? Helpless and injured horses must expect to die. Some horses with stable stress probably feel like that as well. So from a horse "point of view" (sorry - don't want to anthromorphise!), for 8 months the horse was constantly stressed, worried and maybe thought it was about to die any minute.
Sounds extreme, but does it sort of make sense?
As for subjecting to the extreme pain of a Strasser-style clinical trim, where the horse can't even stand for the pain. No way. Not even if they could 100% guarantee my horse would be cured in say 6 months.

[CurlyWurlyRach]

i think id have to let my horse go if she showed me it was her time.
Id rather just say a quiet goodbye then have her on box rest for endless months, i mean, what kind of a life would that be? especially if she wouldnt come right again (ie broken leg). horses are flight animals and personally, id have a permanetly lame horse PTS rather than put them through the mental trauma - sure they may look like theyre coping ok but unless we watch them 24hrs a day and have amagic device taht allows us to hear their thoughts how can we know that?

on the other hand....there is the issue of what gives us the right to play god and decide when we allow an animal to pass on unnaturally?
woah, i feel deep and meaninful here :p

[Jo R]

I had a mare who severed her deep and superficial flexor tendons on her near fore. I had her in veterinary hospital, she was suspended from the ceiling by a sling for some time as she would not stand. At the time she did not appear stressed or worried by the situation and I was assured she was not in pain but that she expected not to be able to stand as she hadnt been able to in the hour following the injury. After three months there was not the best improvement I was informed she would need up to 12months boxrest and she would never be rideable again and she would also be very susceptable to tendon problems which could occur just by her trotting round the field. I could not put a 7year old through that so she was put to sleep.
I have had to put ponies on short term box rest for various reasons since, my old mare for example. She very unexpectedly produced a colt foal last year after having been on loan (at the age of 30!!!!!) and she got a heamorrage in her uterus. She had to be box rested and could not roll for some time, she had to have a catheter and she was not a happy bunny for a couple of weeks, however putting her down didnt even cross my mind once though we were made accutely aware she could have heamorraged and died at any point. Fortunately after a few weeks she made a recovery and was allowed to go back out. In the past she has been extremely traumatised by stabling and would kick the walls of her stable, fortunately 24/7 turnout for several years meant she was happier to stable but I think with the combination of her age and her past experience of stabling if I was told she would need a long time stabled I would have to seriously consider putting her to sleep.
On the other hand I have a mare who will NOT stable, it would be dangerous for me and for her. She would have to be heavily sedated and constantly cross tied, I could not do this too her, if the situation occurred where something could not be managed without a stable (for longer than days or maximum a couple of weeks) then it would definately be in her best interests to have her put down, she would suffer irrepairable mental damage from being stabled for 6 months.
IMO it depends on a lot of factors, from the stabling environment (for example a small barn where two horses could be kept together or a stable with a very small outdoor run or even half height stable walls where the horse could touch and groom others) to the horses individual personality, past experience, probability of recovery, quality of life after recovery etc. For most of my horses I would consider them able to cope with a longer period of box rest although I would be ken to get them outside (even in a tiny paddock) as soon as possible. I avoid stabling wherever possible, last weekend I was advised to box rest a mare for 2 weeks...I put her in a stable overnight before consulting a second vet and deciding I could manage the problem just as well in a non muddy field...which is where she now is happy as larry, sound and non stressed with her best friend.Her problem requires more management in the field but to ensure her happiness I am undertaking this extra management and time that is needed!

I think in every case the horses long term AND short term quality of life and mental state is of utmost importance and any extended period of box rest should be very carefully considered before a horse is potentially put through a very traumatic experience.
Though I may add that I would NEVER consider something like the result of strasser trimming as acceptable. I feel it is wholely unacceptable and downright evil to purposefully cause a horse pain and suffering in this way or any way similar.

[Cheko]

It would be absolutely awful if I had to do this to Falcon. He'd never accept staying in a stable, unless, may be he could see other horses stabled, or be stabled next to another horse - like in a barn.

[Crystal Fire]

Yes... I'll have to do one last post and go sleep on this one!
Well, the sad thing is that after all our trials and tribulations my mare was diagnosed with kissing spine at the age of 6. She wasn't a suitable candidate for an operation (box rest for a start!!), and seems to also have undiagnosed pelvic problems. So at the moment she's retired in a field with friends. I can see that physically she isn't right, sometimes she is quite stiff, she sometimes sort of gets stuck. But she is patently happy in herself, she's fat (too fat), interacts with the others, and still runs about and joins in with the fun. So I suppose I will know it's her time if she ever stops doing all of that. And at that stage if the vet said she might recover with box rest I'd have to do what I know is best for her.
The last time the vet visited, which was about this time last year, he said most people would have her pts then, because she could never have a "useful" life. That wouldn't be enough reason to me. She's not useful in that she can't be ridden or bred from, but I'm sure she feels a useful part of her herd :)
(But the vet also said if I could find her level grazing with horses she was happy with, that's what he'd do for his horse).

[Stella2]

I can't decide how deep to analyse this, maybe that is because I am only too aware of the situation with my mare.
But, from a human perspective, the horse was very stressed for 8 months, but now he's fine so it was worth it. Seeing him well and active after the box rest didn't make me feel that it was worth it, that together with me having Flora by then just left me with a powerful ambivalence. It took away the sense of certainty that I had about this type of situation before.

Its so difficult isn't it. After all remember that the same arguement about the horse living in the moment and not knowing what the future will hold whilst being subject to painful treatment also applies to infant children. In the latter case there is no question if they can ultimately be made well. Of course this is due to the instincts to protect a member of our own species, together with human rights law etc, but it serves to illustrate further how complicated the issues are.

From my other posts, I guess you know that the type of distress caused by Strasser trimming would be unacceptable to me too.

[Wally]

A friend of mine had a pony with a broken leg. It was set by the vet on the farm, and he made a full recovery WITHOUT A DAYS BOX REST!!!! in a matter of a few months. He must have been in a lot of pain for a good few weeks, but he was a young horse and had his whole working life ahead of him. He worked in harness to a grand old age, well into his late 20's

She is like me and does not beleive in box rest, I will bet that in about 10 years the "opinions" on box rest will change. and they will prescribe small paddocks and gentle movement. She has another mare, who was prescribed box rest by the vet, she told him NOPE! and the mare had her surgical shoes as prescribed and was turned out in a small paddock with one pal. The mare is now sound and back in gentle work to build up the muscle she lost in the original injury. Much to the vets consternation, the mare has made a full recovery (nearly, well on the way anyway) without a days box rest!

I don't use box rest, won't use it. Luckily my vet does what I tell him :D :D :D ;)

[Mehitabel]

i think a lot of it is down to how the horse copes on box rest as well. the first time, petal was fine - she had been stabled at night before, she had all the attention she could want, her friends tied outside daily to chat to. our yard takes horses for boxrest and nursing livery, so we have the facilities and the knowledge to make it as stress-free as possible.

the old git though, positively loves being in. he has had time in over our time together for various reasons, and is always happy to come in again, he quite enjoys it. so for him, 6 months of box rest would not be a particular issue - it's be about the quality of life he could expect afterwards, because his short-term quality of life would, any physical pain aside, not be particularly compromised.

for petal, 6 months in would possibly make her very unhappy indeed - although, when she has been in for illness since the big injury she has actually coped fine - it is when she is feeling well that she gets stressed.

[shoniedaspony]

I don't use box rest, won't use it. Luckily my vet does what I tell him :D :D :D ;)

thats ok if you have the oppurtunity of using a small paddock and another horse to keep them company. but what if you are on a livery yard with no such facility you can use 24/7?

at the end of the day, vets give the advice they feel is best-whether you listen to your vet or not is your choice really. i ended up grazing my pony in hadna few times a day when he was on box rest because is made him a lot calmer when he was in the rest of the time. you have to make the best of the circumstances you have.

[Iron Maiden]

Food for thought this. Moving away from Strasser, I keep hearing updates about Barbaro's progress, and I can't help feeling dismayed that he wasn't humanely destroyed when he shattered his leg. Since then he's had it put back together but from what I can gather he's now shed most of one of his hooves through laminitis. At the end of the healing process, how much mobility will he have - his leg sounded like it shattered completely and putting it back together was a microsurgical jigsaw puzzle - and how much pain will he be in? Is it just his stud value that's meant he's been put through this ordeal? Or am I just hard-hearted & out of touch with most people's opinions/sentiment?

I just hope that I have the courage to say enough is enough at the right time if I'm ever in a position where it would be the right thing to do.

[Bronya]

Mysti had to be stabled 24/7 when she had strangles, and then after she was well until she was confirmed clear. Whilst ill, she didn't want to leave the stable, but once well she exploded under saddle (luckily I was able to ride)!!

A friend of mine has had to box rest both horses, and with love, care and attention + appropriate diversions, they've been ok. If Mysti had to be on long-term box rest, I would try to get her a small paddock instead of a stable, or a small barn where she and Sunny could go together. But at the end of the day, I know my girl, and if I turned up regularly, and Sunny came for long visits over the door each day, she'd cope, and the many years of normal life afterwards would be worth it. She's insured, so would have had the best treatment, and would be on pain-killers as necessary, although a well-set leg, properly bandaged, shouldn't really hurt much. So many horses recover completely from fractures, so any decision made would be based on the long-term prognosis.

In terms of other pain - I constantly wonder if I should try to save up for the operation on Mysti's stifles. It is 'elective' surgery in a way, but would completely change her quality of life for the better. Would it be wrong, then, to put her through the operation and the convalescence, to give her confidence and enable her to move properly without any problems ever again?

[Stella2]

Who's Barbaro? Whoever he is, it does sound like he is having a very tough time. I would be looking to find the courage to have my mare PTS in those circumstances :(

[Iron Maiden]

He won the Kentucky Derby, shattered a hind leg in the Preakness I think. Been recovering in a flotation tank apparently, and from the reports I've seen in the UK it seems lots of people in the US have got swept away by the whole thing & there have been regular vigils outside the vet hospital. Not surprising really, the footage of him with his leg dangling uselessly was broadcast across the world. If I wasn't horsey I'd probably not see a problem & be rooting for him, but it's upset me a lot to think of how he much be suffering & I personally would have preferred him to be pts. Like I say though, maybe I'm just nasty.

[Stella2]

He won the Kentucky Derby, shattered a hind leg in the Preakness I think. Been recovering in a flotation tank apparently, and from the reports I've seen in the UK it seems lots of people in the US have got swept away by the whole thing & there have been regular vigils outside the vet hospital. Not surprising really, the footage of him with his leg dangling uselessly was broadcast across the world. If I wasn't horsey I'd probably not see a problem & be rooting for him, but it's upset me a lot to think of how he much be suffering & I personally would have preferred him to be pts. Like I say though, maybe I'm just nasty. I don't think you are and if so, I guess I am too :(

[puzzles]

hun, you could tie a leadrope across the door (like at the back of a trailer) and leave the door open.
poor baby
xx
does she still have quality fo life; eevery bit counts, a cuddle, the companionship, etc.
there are loads of things you can do to keep ehr occupied without stressing ehr further (just ask - they're free!)

[mayoguinness]

I know in strasser that horses often do go lame!:rolleyes: I understand that but even though you may not know it lots of horses are ok with strasser if they have got a hard hoof! My horse is strasser trimmed and has never been lame and is very happy and sound! I did have a different trimmer do his feet once and the next day he was hopping lame! I understand what your saying and all and I exept that horses do go lame with strasser but no one seems to exept that it can sometimes be good for the horse:confused: and lots of horses I know are completely sound being strasser trimmed!:)

[teabiscuit]

it depends on the horse


i know if thug had to have box rest to cure him i'd have him PTS

he can't cope with being stabled and would kick the wall to such an extent that he'd cause irreversible severe damage that would more than likely leave him crippled

so there would really be no point.

[mayoguinness]

I hate stables! Can you imagine being locked up all night and some of the day! With little to eat and nothing to do!! I'm sure if you tried it, it would send you crazy! No wonder horses develop problems in stables... all alone aswell i meen they are herd animals so being locked up in a stable is unnatural and scary! How any horses put up with it I don't know becuase I certaintly couldn't. Plus they spend more time sleeping than normal. They are bored and have nothing else to do. Horses only normally have a few hours sleep! I think people sometimes think that horses are human!

[jeano]

Concerning Barbaro and his progress--you can access the New Bolton Center's website and see lots of photos and read weekly updates on his condition. His cast was recently taken off the broken leg and he has been handwalked outdoors daily for grazing for quite a while. I am confident this horse is not suffering unduly,is receiving adequate pain medication etc, and am equally confident that his owners are not merely concerned about his worth as a stud. He has only been placed in the flotation tank for immediate post-op awakening from sedation--a technique designed to prevent further trauma to the injured leg. (He has in fact lost a lot of the hoof capsule from the founder on the weight bearing hind leg, and this is at present the gravest consequence of the original injury.) He spends most, but not all of his day in a stall and gets plenty of attention, and is able to interact with human caregivers and with horses at a distance. All in all, considering the lives most race horses lead, it's not that different. Personally, I think any equestrian "sport" where the participants (both human and equine!) routinely risk life and limb is too extreme for my tastes. I wish two and three year olds didnt race at all, but that's another story. Thought those of you across the pond might be interested in what this horse is actually experiencing....insofar as that can be determined by pictures and words.