If your trainer approved of something that you didn't ....

[Bay Mare]

would you still want lessons from them?

My friend's trainer recently attended the British Dressage Convention where Anky & Sjef had been invited (why? ... but that's another thread!). Her trainer has come back thinking that Rollkur (renamed LDR to make it seem less inoffensive :rolleyes: ) wasn't that bad after all and can't see what all the fuss is about :eek:

My friend is completely anti-rollkur and though her trainer hasn't ever tried to get her to use it she's not very happy with their stance on it. She's seriously considering finding another trainer though that's not easy in the area that we're in. Good trainers are very few and far between. The thing is that she's been pretty happy with her trainer so far though there have been a few niggles as to some of the things that they recommend.

Obviously the choice is her but she asked me what I would do and I really couldn't answer. My trainer is great and has never even mentioned the 'R' word. I wonder how I'd feel, though, if he suddenly came out and said that he agreed with it. I think that it would most certainly change my opinion of him but would I change to someone else? I don't know, I guess that I like and respect him because of his kindness in his training methods. If he suddenly started to promote Rollkur then I would have to think very seriously about it.

What do you think?

[Scarlett 001]

I'd be disappointed - and they'd better not dare use things I disapprove of on my horse. But if they approved of something, and did *not* use it on my horse, would I still take lessons? Given the lack of good trainers, the need for a barn somewhat close to where I live and such, maybe I'd have to. Besides, it strikes me that one could end up switching barns and quite easily find a new trainer has things you don't always like. Now rollkur is pretty extreme, see-sawing on the mouth is too - those things may make me leave (and I would *run* away if they even mentioned using them on my horse). But if it was something more minor and they did not insist I use it on my horse (can't think of a good example), maybe I'd stay and maybe not. I guess it would depend if it affected their training with me in any way, and who else I could find out there in terms of available trainers/barns.

Gosh, that answer was all over the map and not very decisive. :o :rolleyes:

[Peanut]

That is a tough one and I'm trying to imagine how I'd feel.

I don't think I would necessarily change trainers if I was happy with what we were doing at that time. But I would certainly lose a certain amount of respect for them and know that in the long term I would be finding someone else as I don't in anyway approve of the R method of training.

[asha]

Many people who attended felt exactly the same as your friends trainer.

It was emphasized tho' that LDR was a tool to be used in certain training situations by experienced riders who fully understood the method.

I doubt that any trainer that watched this demo will try to incorporate it into their lessons, so if she's happy with them otherwise maybe she should stick with them.

Just to add personally its not a method I would want to use, ever.

[chev]

I wouldn't use LDR either. But it is true that an awful lot of people attending that clinic did come away wondering why there was all the controversy; so in that light, I don't think my trainer coming back thinking the same would bother me to be honest. I still wouldn't use it on my horse, or want the trainer too - but unless I'd seen that clinic and felt very differently about it to the trainer, I wouldn't stop using the trainer either.

[Iron Maiden]

I might have to wonder whether my hard-earned cash should be spent elsewhere...

Trouble is, there are so many different ways to go about training a horse but if something quite fundamental in the trainer's philosphy were contrary to mine, I'd probably start casting about for someone else. When it comes to Rollkur, I don't think the ends justify the means - I'd rather be underachieving but with both me & the horse enjoying it than prepared to go to those lengths for the sake of a few extra marks & maybe a ribbon.

[Iron Maiden]

I might have to wonder whether my hard-earned cash should be spent elsewhere...

Trouble is, there are so many different ways to go about training a horse but if something quite fundamental in the trainer's philosphy were contrary to mine, I'd probably start casting about for someone else. When it comes to Rollkur, I don't think the ends justify the means - I'd rather be underachieving but with both me & the horse enjoying it than prepared to go to those lengths for the sake of a few extra marks & maybe a ribbon.

[Iron Maiden]

Eeek! Database error, not me..honest!

[mogadoga]

Id stick with the trainer UNLESS they tried to push the ideas onto you/your friend and use something with you that you dont agree with. But an opinion isnt going to change much as long as its not taken into action with yous. :)

[summerguest]

I would keep an open mind and think "well I didn't attend demo and hear what was said, so perhaps she has her reasons for changing her mind on it"
I would keep it more personal...
I would make my judgement on how she was instructing me and training my horse. If she started treating my horse in a way that I didn't approve of, then she would have to go!

[Whatanejit]

I think the main thing here is to keep control.

Our first trainer for Coops - we were happy with 85% of her ideas and philosophies - some of the others we were not.

We kept control of the situation by always be present when she rode him.

Any discussions about other things - I would just say 'I am not keen on that and would prefer this' and she was absolutely fine about it.

I have the option of two trainers now for Coops - one I know her philosophy and will cost twice as much as the other. Would be happy to let her ride without us being present.

The other - I'm not sure about yet. Will always be present during training sessions.


It will be an interesting journey.

[Afellpony]

No I wouldn't have lessons from a trainer who agreed with inhumane methods of either schooling or physical matters. The only reason I like to have someone around when I'm schooling is in case I come off basically!!!! Otherwise I'm quite capable of doing Falcon myself, or so I'm told!! Where Falcon's kept is very quiet with only about 5 or 6 liveries; all visiting at different times; so, I'd rather be on the safe side. If the trainer isn't there, OH comes. He films Falcon and I so that we can see what we look like, or if I have to improve my position in any way.

[Wally]

If someone suggested this for my horse I'd leave.

If someone wanted me to work my horse in draw reins, I'd leave.

Lots more things I do not agree with.

[chev]

Agreed Wally - but if until now the trainer has been good, and progress is made in a way the rider is happy with, I wouldn't get rid unless she did start suggesting I use techniques like that.

The minute she did, then I'd be gone... but I wouldn't make a decision on teh basis of her changing her mind after seeing this particular clinic.

From what I've heard, Anky didn't use rollkur in the way we all know it in this clinic; what she was doing was for a few strides at a time and nowhere near what we've seen termed rollkur. If she did that, and then said that this is what she's done all along... then I can see how soemone could change their mind. I'd keep an open mind about the trainer for now.

(Still not a fan of rollkur, just for the record!)

[eml]

I have heard that a lot of people at the BDC were 'less concerned' after the demo.

We have only come across one trainer who we were totally at odds with and would not carry on with the lesson. Otherwise I think it can be beneficial to have some differences but always reserve the right not to try anything you disagreed with.

[summerguest]

I agree looking at some vids of rollkur it looks horrible.....but if it is so uncomfortable for the horse why do some want to do it naturally?

One of my part bred arabs used to bend at the 3rd vertebrae and tuck his nose in and do a very good impression of this rollkur. My instructor helped my get his poll the highest point by teaching me how to 'place' his head either over bent, head just infront of vertical, or long and low, so that he now holds his head in what we deem the correct position.

BUT why would he want to tuck his nose in like that if its uncomfortable? If you watch him play in the field that is his perfered way of going. This seems quite common amongst arabs and arab x's.

How much force do these dressage riders have to use to hold their horses in this position, or do some offer it naturally like one of mine?

[Ross]

I wouldn't have thought it mattered unless the trainer tried to get you to use methods you didn't like, or tried to use them on your horse - after all, there will be lots of other things you disagree on, and as long as they're not applied to you and your horse, it's not that important...

If the trainer suited me, I wouldn't change just because of a difference of opinion over something we weren't doing.

Ross

[andreaB]

personally if my trainer approved of something i didn't that she wanted to use as a traiining method i would ask her to explain it to me in her understanding & to discuss my reservations to see if actaully i was not fully informed , as i know she always has a very full & technical answer to her methods

i would seriously consider any method she suggested as i very much respect her & the improvement she has made in both myself & my horse

i have to admit i was none too impressed with rollkur but the more i find out about it the less sure i become (hence never comment on discussions here) , & besides i certainly wouldn't expect a good trainer to advocate it's use with a rider or horse not already working to a certain standard

[KarinUS]

To me it would matter. I would not take lessons with somebody that IMO lacks the understanding of horse's physical and mental properties even if that meant that I would be trainerless for a period of time. That lack of understanding would be evident by the fact that they see no problem with things like the above.

[Bay Mare]

i would seriously consider any method she suggested as i very much respect her & the improvement she has made in both myself & my horse


I would agree with this for a lot of things but not Rollkur. There is no way on earth that I would even contemplate using Rollkur. Biomechanically it places extreme stress on the horse (the neck just for starters) and affects both the balance and gait. The Rollkur clips posted recently were taken by Dr Ulrike Thiel who is a biomechanics expert and is vehemently opposed to it. I've heard that it can take as little as 20 minutes to do permanent damage to your horse by using this method.

I would not take lessons with somebody that IMO lacks the understanding of horse's physical and mental properties even if that meant that I would be trainerless for a period of time.

That's a very valid point. It would be difficult if your trainer (like my friend's) has changed their way of thinking though! You do build a relationship with them and it would, for me, be a tough call.

The different answers are very interesting though :) I just hope that it's a dilemma that I never have to address.

[Susara]

If you had to leave every trainer that disagreed with you on some important issue my guess is you soon won't have any trainers to go to any more! Of course if the trainer insists that you follow their beliefs then you don't have much of a choice to leave, though.

One will obviously loose some respect for your RI if you have some fundamental belief that he/she doesn't share, but don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. You know your current trainer and like most of what she does; what's to say if you leave for one that agrees with you on rollkur, there won't be something else you disagree on?

I think it's Rowena that once commented that very few people really don't care about their horses - almost everybody thinks what they do is in their (ie the horses! :-) best interest. My RI approves of side reins, but cringes in horror at people riding with toes out or 'motorcycle hands' - he sees that not only as bad and ineffective style, but as cruel.

When someone uses a technique that you consider cruel, you are right to doubt their technical knowlege, but don't immediately suspect their intentions. I'm quite sure your RI does not enjoy hurting horses using rollkur; she probably honestly doesn't believe that it hurts them.

[Bay Mare]

When someone uses a technique that you consider cruel, you are right to doubt their technical knowlege, but don't immediately suspect their intentions. I'm quite sure your RI does not enjoy hurting horses using rollkur; she probably honestly doesn't believe that it hurts them.

For the record, my trainer is a 'he' and I'm not talking about him! It was a question I asked for interest rather than asking for advice. I'm just interested in other people's opinions because it would be a tough call if I had to make it.

[Susara]

Sorry, think I came accross a bit preachy. Didn't mean to.

[Tootsie4U]

I've run into those sorts of circumstances numerous times. (although not specifically with Rolkur)

I always just stated to my trainer (old or new) that I choose to not train my horse under those ways and does she have any issue respecting my choices?

I only ever walked away from one good trainer due to ethical reasons. She probably wouldnt have forced me into her techniques, but I just wasnt keen on contributing financially to an organization that treated horses the way she did. I probably could have learned a ton from her and she most likely could have really propelled us in the show world, but I dont want to get there via those means.

Tough call.

[Scarlett 001]

I guess the thing is that if the trainer did not force this method on me, yet had decent methods for the lower level I am working at (and assuming their strange ideas regarding upper level training etc. had *no* impact on how they taught at a low level - if this is possible), and no one else was available to train me, then...

Maybe this hypothetical trainer might be better than trainerless for me and my horse??? I have so much to learn at the very low levels and we need the benefit of someone who can show me how to move in a way that makes things more comfortable for him. I'd hate to give that up as he might suffer by having a bouncing sack of potatoes on his back (me!) when this need not be the case. :) But this is all assuming their training for me and my horse was not affected by this particular idea I did not agree with.

Now in terms of reality, I did have one trainer (when I first bought my horse and before I moved barns) who was a bit too firm even with horses at the lower levels I am at, and I did switch barns as there were strong signs she would try and push my my horse beyond his limits, which I was not okay with. (plus I had other issues there on top of this).

Oh, this is all so hypothetical, and it would be so situation-dependent really. There are some training ideas that could make me leave no matter what. Just depends on what we are talking about exactly. Tough call indeed, I agree with you on this BayMare.

[rohan]

Just had to say I did'nt know what a rollkur was so I looked it up and I was horrified:mad: I dont think I have ever seen such an appoling device in my life
It seem that people are trying to do to horses that has happened in the dog and cat world eg British bulldog and its breathing probs.
I have problems with my YO using a martingale not that shr would but if any one ever went neer any of my horse/ponies with that I'd end up in jail for what I'd do to them
sorry had to vent i dispise cruality to animals.

[Peace]

Just had to say I did'nt know what a rollkur was so I looked it up and I was horrified:mad: .

Well, that makes at least two of us. I'm off to look it up now.:o

[rohan]

I know this might be slightly off topic but in the 1800's did'nt carrage horses have something to keep their heads up. but there was animal law that stpopped it. surely the same law could be used to stop this.

[summerguest]

Glad I'm not the only dim one....still trying to work out what the device actually is....Atfirst I thought it was just the rider using the reins, didn't realise they were strapped down! Will have to look at the vids more closely!

[Tootsie4U]

Rolkur is not a device, is it? Its a method of training (if you call it training) where the horse is ridden purposely and severly overbent in warm up so that when the horse is released in the actual test, it'll naturally want to hold its head in a 'headset'.

The controversy, from what I understand, is that some think the arch of the neck restricts breathing but it hasnt been deemed 'cruel' by the agencies governing equine showing.

[Peace]

How bizarre. Bram used to offer me that behavior a lot in the school. :eek:

I hated it, because after we went around like that for awhile he'd pitch a big fit, tossing his head, sidepassing, even threatening to rear. So I asked the RI how to stop him tucking his chin into his chest like that. RI said not to try to stop him, because he'd been trained to do it. I said I thought that position was a prelude to a fit. RI said it wasn't, and I just needed to ride him through it and (I'm not making this up:p ) "show him who's boss."

So I bought him, retired him as a lesson horse, and refused to ride him in the school ever again.:D Because he honestly seemed to think he had to assume that crazy position in the school - but after ten or fifteen minutes of it Bram would get so upset it was almost like he was acting in self-defense to get me off him.

I never knew it had a name. Thanks for clearing up a mystery, Bay Mare!:)

Anyways, to answer the original question, I obviously have used an RI from the "show him who's boss" school of thought, of which I am emphatically not a member. But I had to learn to ride somewhere, and she really was pretty mild-mannered most of the time. Would I do it again? Probably not, but then nowadays I can muddle through on my own until I find someone closer to my own philosophy.

[rohan]

I also think showing a horse "who's Boss" is not right I do however believe that your horse should look to you as his leader quite a different thing altogether. This means he does'nt have to worry about lions/tigers or wild armchairs he has you to let him know if he should be worried or that he is perfectely safe.

[Peace]

I also think showing a horse "who's Boss" is not right I do however believe that your horse should look to you as his leader quite a different thing altogether.

Yes, I agree those are two different things.:) We hear the phrase "show him who's boss" often enough from a certain type of "horseperson" that I've come to think of it as shorthand for the "yank, kick, pull, hit" style of riding.