Sitting trot description in Enlightened Equitation

[Scarlett 001]

I have Heather Moffatt's book, and I have read existing NR posts on sitting trot to do with her approach, but do have some more questions.

I find her sitting trot description so valuable and it has made a world of difference (I totally understand the way she says to move in response to the horse and to pay attention to the sideways motion etc.). But despite all my reading on it on NR and elsewhere and putting the approach into practice, I still have issues. Skeeter has a bouncy trot even though he is not riding really hollowed out anymore (he is getting contact and lowering his head voluntarily - no nose poking any more - but not really moving from behind yet but much better!). No doubt he is still rigid (he is a stiff horse overall) and I am rigid (inflexible lower back) and we therefore make each other get even more rigid. But I also think he just has a rather bouncy trot on top of all of this. I can do the movement/motion Heather describes (I do get it), but I think that I am not following Skeeter's movement quite well enough I guess.

My trainer is trying to get me to really move with his trot, but it is still so bouncy and I sometimes feel like I am just going to pop out of the saddle (I just do half a circle, take a walk, and then trot again - I stop before I get out of control). Apparently I am still tipping forward in the body, but when I try to lean back (which ends up with me just barely vertical) I feel like I am going to fall over backwards with each bouncy step :rolleyes: although he does relax his back more the more I am willing to "lean back" (i.e., be upright in position). I know things will get better over time as my hips/back loosen up and Skeeter loosens up. And I am going to do exercises for the transverse abdominals (recommened by Heather as important) and the lower back which might help.

But...in the meantime how do I adapt her description of the movement to a horse with a bouncy trot - do I just need more forward and backward motion (covering a greater distance) - maybe more height and arc in the motion? Just can't tell. I am going to post some videos of Skeeter's trot in case they are helpful. Does his trot look like it would be particularly bouncy based on the videos? I have sat on another horse a few months back and could sit the trot soooo easily - I could have done it stirrupless and for forever, as it was so easy compared to when I am on Skeeter... :rolleyes:

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a17/scarlett001/th_148_4833.jpg (http://s8.photobucket.com/albums/a17/scarlett001/?action=view&current=148_4833.flv)

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a17/scarlett001/th_152_5202.jpg (http://s8.photobucket.com/albums/a17/scarlett001/?action=view&current=152_5202.flv)

[Scarlett 001]

Oh dear, no one has ideas/suggestions about my questions in my very lonely thread. :p :(

Even if you have not read Enlightened Equitation, I'd still like to know if Skeet's trot in the video looks like it would be bouncy, and why it is quite so extremely bouncy to sit??? :confused:

[Keket]

Haven't read Enlightened Equitation, and I'm not familiar with the methods, but could you try slowing his pace down? If you get him into more of a jog, and less of a trot, it should help you really feel how he's moving so that when you bring him back up to a proper trot, you know exactly how you have to move to follow him. I figure that learning to sit the jog before learning to sit the trot is one of the reasons that I'm one the few riders that prefers sitting trot to rising trot, despite Coquette have quite a bouncy trot.

And obviously, as he gets working more from behind the trot will improve dramatically. I had Coquette working beautifully at the trot yesterday and it was so much nicer to sit to! :)

[LMayhewtx]

Well, I will chime in because I am working on my sitting trot now. I can't tell you if his trot looks bouncy or not - I am not experienced enough. Horses that naturally are more upright and take shorter, prancier steps do usually have a bouncier trot. At least that is what I have noticed.
I can say that just when I thought I had sitting trot down, I went on to a horse with a much larger step and very different rhythm than some of the other horses and had to relearn to sit the trot all over again! When I went back to the horse I had been riding, sitting the trot just felt like walking around in my favorite slippers, it was so much easier and seemed so much smoother.

I would recommend trying to sit without stirrups ( I am not sure what your book recommends). I actually find sitting a trot without stirrups easier than with stirrups! I just like to stretch my legs down, and imagine myself like a clothespin, as my instructor says. And yes, I sit there and say, i'm a clothespin, i'm a clothespin, i'm a clothespin. I know, nothing in there about flexing your back, but that image does work for me.

[Bay Mare]

Scarlett - I can't see your vid (work :mad: ) so am not ignoring, just can't help :(

Why not take the plunge and do a search/ask the question on EE? Heather very often answers questions on the threads so you may get an answer from the lady herself :) If not there are plenty of people who have been on her courses and will be more than willing to help you.

I'm keeping my gob shut because I've not been on a course and don't want to tell you the wrong thing :) (makes a change .... the gob shut thing ... I know ;) ).

[Tootsie4U]

Im not an EE follower, but have read about the 'motion' thing.

A tip for you, as far at this goes:

Apparently I am still tipping forward in the body, but when I try to lean back

If thats not working for you, think rather about keeping your shoulders over your hip. That visual concept change made the world of difference to this leaner! The horse appreciated it too. (Im passing the tip along from cvb who gave it to me a few months back).

Taking your stirrups away forces you to follow the movement. You dont have anything to brace against. That doesnt mean you still cant brace, but it does help.

They dont call it the 'dreaded sitting trot' for nothing ;)

Remember to breathe, keep your hip muscles open but not loose and relax your shoulders. I'd also recommend doing this late at night when no one else is there so you can really focus all mental and physical strengths on absorbing the motion. All of that is easily interrupted when you've got someone coming at you playing chicken at the busy time of the day :D

[vciky]

Hi there,
I can sympathise with your problem! I also have a very bouncy horse LOL!! I have got the EE book too and also went on the simulator course with Heather - it helped loads as I was having real problems with my trot work. I have ridden lots of different horses but nothing prepared for the 'friesian' trot!!
I have looked at your vids and yes, I can see that your horse has a long and powerful stride so it will make it feel bouncy as he powers through the back end.
My sitting trot is STILL a work in progress and will be for a good while I should think:o Things that have helped me are, lunging lessons without stirrups practising sitting AND rising with no stirrups. This was good for me as it showed me how little I have to move in the trot - I was rising far too high in an attempt to go with the movement.
I put a balance strap on the front of the saddle and loop my little fingers through to help with my stability so I dont catch my horse in the mouth.
Doing just a few strides in sitting and then rising again helps so you dont loose it and end up bouncing all over the place.
The big thing is CORE STABILITY!!! You have to be firm through the abdominals but not rigid in the back - this is hard for me as I still find it difficult to isolate different parts of my body - I am either tense all over or floppy:rolleyes: It IS getting better though!
Another thing that will help is just improving the trot and working correctly. Antsje has a high head carriage and if she tenses her neck, it locks her back and it is impossible to sit to. When I can get her working softly and round, her stride becomes more 'swinging' and this does make it easier.
With the rising it is about moving forwards from the hip rather than up and down. I know a lot of people say let the horse move you, which indeed is very true with a normal striding horse, the trouble I have found with this on my horse is she catapults you out of the saddle:eek: So yes I let her move me with her stride but I have to control it with my abdominals otherwise she ends up dictating the pace and not the other way around!
It is all part of the journey and horse and rider need to improve to help each other out!! If you visit the EE forum - http://www.enlightenedequitation.com/members/forums/index.php - I am sure you will get some better answers than mine:)
This video was a few months ago and you can see my rising is way to high and I am still getting unbalanced at times
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a269/Vicky_Whitlock/th_lesson-bennets009.jpg (http://s13.photobucket.com/albums/a269/Vicky_Whitlock/?action=view&current=lesson-bennets009.flv)

This video was last week, and as Antsje is learning to work softer her stride is becoming more 'swinging' - also my rising and core stability is getting better and I can control the trot better.
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a269/Vicky_Whitlock/th_bennets031206013.jpg (http://s13.photobucket.com/albums/a269/Vicky_Whitlock/?action=view&current=bennets031206013.flv)

Hope some of this helps - with practise and time it will all start coming together I am sure;) Good Luck:)

[Werehorse]

Hi,

I've not read all the replies so sorry if repeating. Have also not read the book you are refering too, so not much help there either! :p

Just wanted to offer a word of advice with regard moving with the horse in sitting trot. Got this from a classical dressage instructer I had lessons with this summer.

There are three planes of movement in the trot (and I suppose other paces!) up-down, side-side and front-back. If you sit to the trot and try to feel these movements the one you feel first/most obviously is the one you are not moving with so well and the one you feel last/most faintly is the one you are moving with alot. In my case I could barely feel the forward-back at all because my waist was (and probably still is) so wobbly I just wobbled back and forward with the movement! (as an example). So if you think about that you can probably figure out which direction of movement you are resisting, which would give you a starting point I suppose?

I don't know if that's of any help at all! Probably not read your post properly either!:p :) Just rambling musings!

[Iron Maiden]

No idea about EE but I find the best way to improve sitting trot is definitely without stirrups as suggested by Tootsie4U or bareback, both really allow you to sit deep & feel through your seat. Rising is not an option & you don't get bounced against the stirrups, unbalanced trying not to lose them or put out of balance by stirrup bar placement. Try to imagine that you will land on your feet in perfect balance if the horse suddenly vanishes. And try to visualise a lovely, comfy squishy thing you are sitting in, rather than a bouncy cob you're sitting on!

[galadriel]

I sometimes think of sitting trot as posting (rising) trot without leaving the saddle. If you try rising trot, continue trotting, rising less and less with each stride, eventually you're almost not rising to the trot but you're still feeling pretty well in control.

If you half halt with each stride you can get a more collected trot which is easier to sit.

[Wally]

go and ask Heather on EE board.

Post your vids and ask her what she thinks.

www.enlightenedequitation.com

[teabiscuit]

i loved the vids of Skeeter in action-reminds me very much of my tb boy thug
http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h222/teabiscuit_01/thug-1.jpg


the long reining was very inspiring, isn't he a good boy?


my RI tells me to have my shoulders above my hips, my seat bones tucked underneath me and to sit on top of them

it feels very sloppy, like i'm making a c shape with my back, and my tummy feels collapsed

i'm sure this is an intermeidiate stage as i know you need to be able to use your core muscles

but it means i can follow every movement if the horses back and absorb it-no more nasty bouncing

it also feels a bit rude if you know what i mean :o

[mayoguinness]

I'm not much help! Never realy had a problem with sitting trot exept when I had to do it for an hour strait!

[Scarlett 001]

Thanks all for ideas. I'll have to write them out as a list and bring them to the barn to try out a few.

And I did just post on EE forum about this, so will be interesting to see what advice they have over that way. :)

Teabiscuit - your horse is gorgeous - one of the most beautiful tb's I have seen! Wow! :D

[Scarlett 001]

Yay! Got a reply from Heather on EE already.

She said Skeeter is a "very good mover" :D - but that he does have a real "warmblood trot" and you would not guess he was pure tb - and she said that it would be hard to sit that trot! Made me feel better for struggling. She wants me to get a video of me trying to sit to that trot so she can help me more!!! Eek! :eek: I will be so embarrassed to take a video of me bouncing around :o but if it helps Skeeter and me be more comfortable at sitting trot, I will put my shame aside and get that video. :)

[teabiscuit]

will you update us on what Heather said? I'd be very interested to hear :)

[Scarlett 001]

Sure, but I did not yet get a video of me riding Skeeter. My lesson is on Monday, which coincides with xmas, new years so no lessons for another 2 1/2 weeks!!! Once I get that video and get her comments, I will update this post for certain. :)

[rohan]

I also have great difficualty with sitting trot the best advice i ever got was its like doing pelvic floor exercises on horse back., and i found that really helps as you can adjust the rythem to the horse it takes practics and hard work but youll find that when you relax it works. although i still have stirup probs as i tend to shorten my legs still ill keep trying.the other thing is that once you get even 2 strides youll know thats when the practice starts. Ouch

[WYORider]

any video yet?! I too struggle sitting Dutch's trot. He is 16.3h and has a huge, bouncey trot. I have found that if I move my hips in sync with his gait, almost in a forward-down motion, that I am able to correct sit his trot and my upper body does not get bounced everywhere.

I've heard it said that the best english-type horses have very large and bouncey trots. :)

[WYORider]

it also feels a bit rude if you know what i mean :o

YES!!!! exactly!!!! :)

[carrimclaren]

I really like heather moffetts way of riding. Something in it clicks with my brain and the way i ride. Would love to see her ride my horse and see what she's capable of in the right hands (the horse not heather :) )
With regards to your sitting trot, your horse looks like he works from behind and properly and this in itself will make the trot a lot bouncier. The more a horse is working properly the bouncier i tend to find their trot until you slow it down a little. Not sure if that's cheating or not but hey it works for me. I tend to do a lot of half halting, circles etc. to slow the trot down and to get my brain into gear about what parts of me need to be where. It makes it a lot easier. I got on a friends horse about a year ago and she's very well schooled and works properly from behind and i couldn't even sit properly in rising trot :o This is because i'd never really been on a horse like this and it was so new. So don't worry too much if things don't come together, sitting trot is something that comes with time. I've had my mare 3 years and i still can't master sitting trot. It's getting there but it's still a long way off being good. ;) I find the main problem with why people have problems with sitting trot is confidence. It's one of those positions that make people very self-conscious and this makes people tense and unable to relax. I always used to get tense and panic when people watched me in sitting trot as i'd thump around, slide about and generally look like a sack of manure on the horses back.

[Kate F.]

Skeeter has a bouncy trot even though he is not riding really hollowed out anymore (he is getting contact and lowering his head voluntarily - no nose poking any more - but not really moving from behind yet but much better!). No doubt he is still rigid (he is a stiff horse overall) and I am rigid (inflexible lower back) and we therefore make each other get even more rigid. But I also think he just has a rather bouncy trot on top of all of this.

I think you have the answer here - ANY horse has a bouncy trot if the back is stiff or hollowed. Every horse has a smooth and easy to sit trot when the raise their backs and engage their hindquarters. As you say, he's lowering his head - but not engaging from behind and lifting his back. Of course, he's not going to do this if your back is stiff - so it will be a matter of working on the whole thing in little bits. One useful exercise I had from a centred riding instructor is to work on a square (half the school - large circle size, but making the corners as sharp as you can get them. Then walk the straight parts and just trot the corners, trotting on a few strides before the corner, and coming back to walk straight after the corner. Do this for four or five circuits, then just continue the trot after the corner - and you find the back has lifted. Then do the same in the other direction. Don't over do it, as it's quite strenuous for the horse - but it really helps to get the feel, and because you're only trotting a short distance, the rider tends not to stiffen up.

Be careful with Skeeter that he doesn't start going behind the bit. He's getting very close to it in the long reining. Horses can stick their noses between their knees and still be stiff and "strung out behind", so in this exercise and any other, make sure you focus on riding his hindquarters forwards and under him, not on bringing his head down. When the hindquarters and back are right, the poll will flex of its own accord.

Good luck!

[Scarlett 001]

Be careful with Skeeter that he doesn't start going behind the bit. He's getting very close to it in the long reining.
Good luck!

Thanks for comments and that exercise. :)

One question. You do think then that he is that close to going behind the bit in the video (I realize he is vertical, so technically he is close - but he was relaxed and I felt no signs of resisting contact)? Are you referring to the overall position, or that in the video now and again he goes a bit behind vertical (at the time, that felt more like the pair of us figuring out the right amount of contact he preferred, rather than an evasion thing - I was learning about contact for the first time too at the time and long reining was new to both of us too - so we were not steady). My hands were actually quite light and he was making that contact himself - he was not being held down - he was very relaxed.

[Kate F.]

Thanks for comments and that exercise. :)

One question. You do think then that he is that close to going behind the bit in the video (I realize he is vertical, so technically he is close - but he was relaxed and I felt no signs of resisting contact)? Are you referring to the overall position, or that in the video now and again he goes a bit behind vertical (at the time, that felt more like the pair of us figuring out the right amount of contact he preferred, rather than an evasion thing - I was learning about contact for the first time too at the time and long reining was new to both of us too - so we were not steady). My hands were actually quite light and he was making that contact himself - he was not being held down - he was very relaxed.

He's OK up to about 30 seconds, then he starts going down and down and by 40 seconds is well behind the vertical. This means the flexion is not at the poll, but behind it. All I meant is - it's just something to watch for, and certainly don't encourage him to go any deeper. You can now forget about the head and work on the hindquarters. As he starts to engage his hindquarters, the head will come up a bit and that's fine. Don't then try to get his head down again, or you will have him behind the bit.

"Long and low" has been very fashionable as a novice frame, but it's more and more being called into question as it very easily turns into an over bent, on the forehand frame. The horse discovers a nice quiet place with his nose between his knees where the bit goes away and the rider stops asking because he/she thinks they are on the bit. Once they get used to it down there, it's very difficult to get them out of it. They can even track up pretty well from down there, making it look as though they are engaging their hindquarters but they are still on the forehand and paddling away with the front end with hardly any weight on the hind end.

He's not doing any of this yet - but is showing that he's thinking about tucking his nose too far down - so it's just something to be aware of.
:)

[Scarlett 001]

Ok, you are right that the last of the three 10m circles is not as good as the first two. I actually have 2 video clips taken just before that clip, and he is pretty good in those - in fact just slightly ahead of vertical in parts of it. The video I posted was taken at the very end of the long reining lesson and was the last of the 3 videos, so I suspect he was getting tired and it was a good thing the lesson ended. :)

Thanks for the tips about the frame etc. I just wanted to understand what you were seeing and now I understand. This is why I like to video things every so often - you can check what is going on when sometimes it is hard to tell when on the horse (or behind in the case of long reining ;) ).

That is also interesting to hear that long and low is not always thought to be so good - what then are thought to be the alternatives for a novice dressage horse without the strength to do much else? Just curious. :)

[Kate F.]

That is also interesting to hear that long and low is not always thought to be so good - what then are thought to be the alternatives for a novice dressage horse without the strength to do much else? Just curious. :)

Long and low is more a philosophy of the modern competitive approach (for lack of a better term) as opposed to the classical approach.

I was just checking exactly what Podhajsky says on the matter to make sure I quote him correctly, (he's my definitive authority on these matters! :D ) - and he is of the view that the novice horse should choose its own head carriage in the beginning to make itself comfortable with the rider's weight, and the emphasis should be on straightness and forward movement. He puts it more that the young or novice horse should be ALLOWED to carry its head low, but never behind the vertical, until it has learned to raise its back and start to engage behind. He says that as soon as the horse goes behind the vertical, the impulsion, and with it what he calls the "brilliance of the paces", will be lost. Therefore the young horse should be encouraged to reach forwards, but not to tuck its head back.

You still see this in practise today in the Spanish Riding School here in Vienna - the young horses are always well in front of the vertical and all the focus is on straightness and regularity of the gaits.

Then, as the hindquarters build strength and engagement, they will take more weight, the forehand will lighten and the head comes up. The angle of the nose relates directly to the degree of collection - ie the proportion of weight the horse is taking on the hindquarters. Hence the old maxim of "in front of the vertical, approaching the vertical in piaffe" - as piaffe is the highest form of collection. Padhajsky's very emphatic that while the head carriage is ultimately very important, it must never be set with the hand (ie the rein), only with the seat.

Now, no one is suggesting that you or I can aspire to the inspirational training levels of Podhajsky and the Spanish - but he does have a point that sometimes gets lost in today's "long and low" approach which often sees long and low as a goal in itself - and the longer and lower the better.

In today's competitive field, particularly in the "hot housing" of competition horses, behind the vertical is sadly not only common - it's often rewarded with ribbons. Thus the draw rein culture - and even worse the Rollkur mob get quick rewards in the ring, while the more patient and diligent trainers are sidelined. Hence the growing classical/competitive divide.

What is becoming less fashionable with the revival of interest in classical riding is the idea of long and low with a view to getting the head down at any cost and hoping everything else follows (which it usually doesn't!). What is becoming slowly more popular again is the idea of working on the engagement of the hind legs and back, and letting the head look after itself. So, to answer your question, the alternative to working on "long and low" is to focus on the straightness and quality of the paces, rather than the position of the head. The head probably will be quite low - but that's incidental. The important thing is that the horse is thinking forwards and raising its back.

Does that make any sense? I hope so!:D

Cheers!

[Scarlett 001]

I was just checking exactly what Podhajsky says on the matter to make sure I quote him correctly,

You still see this in practise today in the Spanish Riding School here in Vienna - the young horses are always well in front of the vertical and all the focus is on straightness and regularity of the gaits.

Does that make any sense? I hope so!:D

Cheers!

You are in Vienna then? I was there in November, and watched the morning sessions at the Spanish Riding School several times! I just loved the simplicity of the riding. Not showy, not like modern dressage competition at all. I was instantly drawn to it, and that is what I aspire to (I said "aspire", not where I will end up! :p ) This is where I got my newfound interest in classical dressage. I actually have Podhajsky's book by my bed for bedtime reading (bought it in Vienna on that trip) so what you write all makes sense. I've been reading bits and pieces of the book, but I think I should right it directly through to get the full story/philosophy.

Thanks. Vienna is gorgeous. You are so lucky to live there, or at least near there! :D

[Kate F.]

Glad you enjoyed Vienna! Home and the horses (all in the same place) are just outside the city limits - but I work in the 4th district - about 10 minutes walk from the Spanish!!

The morning sessions are great, aren't they? As you say - the riding is in a way so simple, but so well thought out and so effective. No stress, no fuss - just pure focus and timing. :cool: :cool:

If you come over again - let me know! Perhaps we could meet up for a morning session at the Spanish?