bit question

[Roheryn]

A friend's daughter and I ride the friend's horse both English and western (dressage lessons, occasional western riding on weekends). The horse goes pretty well in dressage and jumping with a plain eggbutt snaffle, with a caveson (and a flash added for dressage).
His western bridle has no cavesson and has a different, but still single-jointed, snaffle.
In his western bridle he can open his mouth and evade the bit's action; once with me he wouldn't stop trotting and once with the friend's daughter he wouldn't stop cantering (fortunately they were in the small school! and he did stop after a little).
The daughter likes to neck rein when she rides western (so do I, but I also like to keep him on the bit to be consistent with his dressage schooling).
I would like some advice on bits--
e.g., should we ride him western in his English bridle with caveson and flash, but put long western reins on, so we can neck rein him and so he can't evade the bit?
Should we get him some sort of mild western curb with a curb strap or chain for his western bridle? Can he evade the action of a curb as he can a snaffle? Does the curb chain/strap help with control?
I know that if either of us goes on with dressage we may eventually be riding him in a double bridle, so I don't think introducing a curb would be impractical. I just want him to be safe for us, and happy, in the big school as well as the small one, and riding out!
Advice, please!!!

[jUmPingIsLifE]

If you are just schooling, there is no real reason you cant throw on a noseband. If you want to show western that may be a problem though. Im not sure about the curb action or anything like that so i cant help you there. Abour your bit though, is it thicker or thinner then his other bit? the thickness of the bit can really bother some horses if it is to thick or to thin. For any horse evading the bit and running off I really strongly believe in lateral flexion and everything it can do for you.

http://www.todayshorse.com/Articles/LateralFlexion.htm

[galadriel]

If he's fine in the English bridle but not the Western, it may be that he just doesn't *like* the bit in the Western bridle. You can swap the English bit into the Western bridle to see if he goes better; if he does, you can just get a second one.

[Roheryn]

I work on lateral flexion with him in my lessons. Friend's daughter is relatively young; she's supposed to be working on flexion in her lessons as well but when she rides between her lessons she doesn't really work on anything but just wants to have fun--and I want her to be safe, hence my question. She never does any schooling outside lessons. :rolleyes:

there is no real reason you cant throw on a noseband.

So ... add his English caveson under his western bridle? I know some people who put their cavesons on separately from the rest of the headstall. I guess I could try it and see how he goes in it for me. I don't like to do much "rigging up" gadgets, but maybe just adding the caveson wouldn't be doing that?

[DailyNhtly]

Adding the flash is simply a 'quick solution' for his evasion and makes no effort whatsoever to find the cause and come up with a real solution. 'Quick' may get rid of the initial behavior (opening his mouth), but surely his discomfort or annoyance will pop up somewhere else since you've done nothing to solve it.

In addition, if your goal is to do any dressage work, you're shutting down your axis for flexion. The jaw is the first point in the anatomy that needs to be supple before you even think about the poll and the neck, let alone down the spine. The flash does not allow for this, only causing tension.

Regarding the use of the snaffle while neck reining, it can be done but somewhat defeats the purpose of the bit. A single shanked bit is meant to be ridden in one hand, while anything jointed is ideal for two. Regardless of what curb you place in his mouth, he will more than likely still attempt to evade it since you haven't done anything to fix the problem yet.

Now, that being said, what do you do? Have you had his teeth checked to rule out dental issues giving way to this behavior?

Given a medical clear, the first step to fixing this issue is to teach the horse to give to simple pressure. There are a million and one ways to acheive this that I'm sure you can search on this board.

When it comes to getting real contact, remember that it is something that he has to come into, not something that can be acheived by pulling on him; think of it as 'riding into the bridle'. I don't know about you or your daughter's riding ability, but perhaps your hands are part of the problem?

Loungeing with side reins is a great exercise to allow him to come into the bridle and find balance, all by himself and without the added distratction of a rider (no matter how good they might be). Really ask him to move forward and he'll find his comfort zone eventually.

The concept you're trying to instill in him is 'driving', driving from the back end will allow to drop and engage his hindquarters, round up his back, and from there the head will follow (remember: ride from the back to the front).

Evasion means that the horse simply doesn't want to listen for whatever reason, a lot of the times it's a lack of attention due to boredom, etc. Sometimes all it takes is refocusing their attention back on you. The use of circles, serpentines, ground poles, etc can all be helpful. When you mentioned your 'runaway' instances, it made me think of an old OTTB mare I used to school. She simply needed some cantering on the buckle here and there to stretch her legs and break up the routine. This alone seemed enough to solve her evasion issues. Adding to that, you can always trick your horse into slowly down by asking for more complicated maneuvers such as pivots, etc.

Keep in mind that the quick fix is quick, but really getting to the root of the problem is much more rewarding and effective longterm.

Best of luck...

[Shadowlark]

OR just use the english bridal with the western saddle and save the fuss.

Maybe he would prefer a double jointed bit instead of a single? I had issues with my morgan "evading" the bit and as soon as I went to a double joint with some copper rollers he settled right down and got to work and stoped worrying about his mouth.

I do agree that if you need a flash with him.. there is another issue somewhere that might be worth looking into.

[Roheryn]

We ride him in the flash for dressage because the flash helps keep the bit in the proper position in his mouth, which is most comfortable for him. I'd like the three of us (horse and both riders) to get to where we can do dressage in an open bridle, which after all is one of the purposes of dressage (tho' apparently forgotten by many dressage riders today!).
He's very good about coming onto the bit when ridden between leg-seat and hand, he goes in a nice frame. He's happy with his eggbutt and this weekend for the first time he seemed happy with the other snaffle. I don't really want to switch him to a curb as long as he'll neck rein in the snaffle. I think what we're gonna do is just continue in his English bridle 'til both of us riders can get consistent with keeping him forward. His younger rider may just have to wait for neck-reining and, for now, be content with learning dressage. That is what I would do if I were her instructor.

[Jessey]

We ride him in the flash for dressage because the flash helps keep the bit in the proper position in his mouth, which is most comfortable for him.
A flash doesn't put the bit where it is most comfortable for him, it forces him to hold it in one position - where that is will depend on the fitting of the caverson and flash and the shape/conformation of his nose.
The only way to get a bit in the most comfortable position for the horse, it to put a slightly slack head stall on with no noseband and let him fiddle with and lift the bit into the best position for him, then set the head stall to carry it there.

One test I would try is take the noseband off his english bridle, does he still do the same thing (bit evasion) then? if so then I would whole heartedly agree that your nose band is covering another probem be it his teeth or his bit etc.

The reason you neck rein in a bar bit (rather than jointed) is that the jointed bit will move too much in his mouth causing confusion, if you want to stick with a snaffle then getting a mullen mouth one would stop that problem, and TBH I think you are right not to put a child who is still learning into a curb bit, a lot of damage can be done by accident with those bits :o

NF ponies (or the ones I have known) have struggled with chunky or jointed bits, even french links as their mouths are often not big enough to cope with them, I think a bit with a lozenge or roller might be better but obviously you know your horses mouth conformation :D

[Mary Queen]

Try a pelham with roundings, I know it's not for western riders (ride western), but try it anyhow, it might work!

[Bronya]

Neither of my horses have ever gone well in single jointed snaffles. Mysti used to buck when asked to stop/slow, and Sunny backs off from it in horror. Both love french links though, and Sunny (NF pony) has a gorgeous Stubben french link. It cost about £20 but is absolutely fantastic, it's shaped really nicely for her mouth, isn't too thick and she goes well in it.

[Roheryn]

I've actually thought about trying him in a Pelham before, but I hadn't thought about roundings. I was just thinking using it with double reins. I'd thought of a jointed Pelham but most of the Pelhams I've used have been rubber ones (may have ridden in a ported Pelham ages ago). We can't use a Pelham for dressage, though.
If I were skilled enough to go to a double bridle that would solve some of the issues, but I'm not, and his other rider certainly isn't.
We've talked about trying a French link or other double-jointed snaffle, so we may try that.

[Jessey]

How about trying a kimblewick (I think thats still dressage legal???) then you have mullen mouth, which can be fine and you can just use an elastic curb with it rather than a chain and little leverage for young hands to get in a muddle with ;) - might be worth a try :D

[Roheryn]

Kimberwick is a good thought. Thanks. It would certainly be better for both horse and young rider than a shanked bit.
What's an elastic curb? I've only ever seen chains and leather/nylon straps. Elastic sounds nice and mild if it's an elastic curb strap.
I don't know if Kimberwicks are dressage-legal but he could stay in his snaffle for that if the change wouldn't confuse him. It might not--I know of horses who go English in snaffles and western in curbs and eventers who change bits between dressage and jumping.

Why is it Kimblewick in the UK and Kimberwick in the US? :)
(For that matter, why is it sometimes "bridoon" and other times "bradoon"?)
Why is it both "full bridle" and "double bridle"? And "bit and bradoon"? Why "curb" and "Weymouth"?
:confused: :) :confused: :)

[Shadowlark]

Why?

Why do americans feel they don't need U's in words yet us Canadian's agree with the british...
Why are Americans still on the Imperial system of measurement???

LOL Ponds of tremendous size tend to mess with terminology :D

[qhlady]

Personally I think it's because way back whenever, the Americans (then break away brits) figured they had more important things to do then to make the English language even more difficult to understand by sticking unnecessary letters in things, and thereby changing the rules of pronunciation on most of them!?

I.e.… color vs colour. Check vs cheque…and so on. Somebody learning the language has enough problems learning all our ridiculous silent letters… why put them through learning the sound of “ou” in general, then shove it in a word that sounds as it should when spelt without the extra “u”? And how can anybody justify “que” sounding the same as “ck”?

I think the brits just wanted to be a bit more continental, they tried to add too much French, or they just never progressed from the Latin roots or something. Just lazy if you ask me! (kidding… don’t start on me!)

I’ve learnt several languages over the years, and all of the teachers I have known have all said English is by far the most difficult language to learn because of all the silly nuances.

Makes it all the more embarrassing to me, that the majority of the world go to the trouble of learning English, and we can not do the same for them.

[Roheryn]

they tried to add too much French,

Hmmmm ... I never got the hang of spelling French when I studied it, which was frustrating for me as I am quite a good speller in English and German.

About US spellings, what I read was that it was all down to Noah Webster, who wrote the first(?) US dictionary and had some reason (guess what it was?!?) for changing the spellings from British "ou" "que," etc. Actually I don't know if his reason was a political one or if he just wanted to simplify the spelling (sort of an 18th-century version of TXT TLK or whatever it's called?)

Changing, for example, "neighbour" to "neighbor," it would seem more logical to me pronounciation-wise to drop the O rather than the U, and write "neighbur." But then why not "nabur"? :D All I know is that "my" horse actually has two NEIGHbors, one on either side of his stall, and when one of them is out of site they tend to call each other by title: "NEIGH!" ;)

Well . . . I also know that whereas I've seen lots of tack catalogues advertising "bradoons," the USEF has "bridoon" in its list of dressage-legal bits.

What do the USEF's counterparts round the world list? Are they all FEI-compliant?

[cvb]

Roheryn

another thought/question - how does the bit attach on your western bridle ?

I had been using a western bridle for all my schooling work. It is a working bridle with metal hooks to clip the bit on to.

But what was happening when I was riding with any kind of contact (rather than buckle end) was that the bit ring was able to move by the amount of "hole" in the hook vertically and hence was not stable in Fi's mouth. She was tolerating it but was not really settling as she should or could.

I swapped back to the english bridle with a smaller "hole" for the bit ring to sit in, and the mare almost sighed with relief :rolleyes:

I just hadn't thought through the impact of those hooks...

I have a personal preference for loose ring french link snaffles. But thats me ;)

[Roheryn]

Question from cvb:

how does the bit attach on your western bridle ?

The bit attaches with the buckles on the cheekpieces (the reins are buckle-end too).

I have a personal preference for loose ring french link snaffles. But thats me.

Could be me too by next week. :D The trainer and I were talking earlier this week and we decided to try a French link in my next dressage lesson. I'm interested to see how my guy will go in it. I don't know if the available one is loose ring or eggbutt. I personally would prefer an eggbutt because I don't want any risk of his little lips getting pinched, but the loose rings might give the bit more play and encourage him to mouth it.
He pokes his nose a lot in halt even with the flash and after a lot of study I want to see if the French link helps this. If it does, we'll try it in his western bridle too. Then maybe we could dispense with the flash altogether.

[qhlady]

Mornin all...

Just a quick question, why do English riders want thier horses to mouth the bit and play with it, then later on, spend a fortune on gadgets to close the horses mouth shut?

I was taught, long,long time ago, and by a western person back home (US) that when you bit a horse... forget all the "wrinkles" in the corner of the mouth stuff, and drop the bit down... let the horse tell you where he/she is happy and then they will "hold" it in the place thats right for them. One of the reasons I think, we western riders have no nosebands...our horses mouths are comfy, and they aren't being gagged by a chunk of metal too far up in their mouth.

May be worth a try. I know if my filly is mouthing at the bit, then she isn't happy and I'll drop it a hole or so, then she'll quit.

Sorry to butt in.. as I do!:o

[cvb]

I was taught, long,long time ago, and by a western person back home (US) that when you bit a horse... forget all the "wrinkles" in the corner of the mouth stuff, and drop the bit down... let the horse tell you where he/she is happy and then they will "hold" it in the place thats right for them. One of the reasons I think, we western riders have no nosebands...our horses mouths are comfy, and they aren't being gagged by a chunk of metal too far up in their mouth.


qhlady, I agree with the "let your horse tell you" part, but I worry a little about the "they will hold it in place part" ...

I have seen a few times now people who have read the thing about dropping the bit lower, and letting the horse "Hold it" up where they want, and the bit is just bouncing around in their mouth and on their teeth and they are clearing telling the rider that is NOT where they want it.

What my mare did was more subtle - she was working nicely but was not as settled as she could be. And this was just a couple of cm vertical movement between where the bit rested at the bottom, and how far up it could travel.

She was saying to me "look mum, I have ENOUGH to do without having to sort this bit out - please put it where I can work with it !"

Roheryn - even if it is buckles, how much vertical travel is possible ? How loose are the cheek pieces ?

[Jessey]

She was saying to me "look mum, I have ENOUGH to do without having to sort this bit out - please put it where I can work with it !"
I also work on the principle of let the horse set the bit - but I guess it could depend a bit on how they are used to things, both of mine have been bitted low so they can lift it and are really happy like it - Bo in fact will stand looking like he is being gagged and lean terribly if I put a bit up at the 'proper' level ;)

[qhlady]

Hi cvb....

I know what you mean about bits on teeth... I'm def not talking about that sort of thing, just that the gap between a horses front teeth and the start of the molars is the space a bit will sit most comfortably, for most horses.

I'm afraid the NH revolution has a lot to answer to. People buy a book and a stick for an over inflated price and start messing about, sometimes it doesn't work. Sometimes the horse ends up worse off by people making mistakes, no matter how well intentioned. I think this is where people started reading about dropping the bit, but so many are JUST dropping the bit two holes, and thats not the idea... thats not giving the horse a choice... it's just banging the other teeth instead! You need to move the bit down, or up - one hole or three... they are all different, and an Arab does not have the mouth of a cob, nor a cob the mouth of a TB and so on.

When a horse is subjected to the crunching of the bit against their teeth thanks to the two/three wrinkle rule it's no wonder they act like they are gaging sometimes!

However... some horses are going to like the bit held up, esp if thats what they are used too... like when a horse is reschooled to go western from english, sometimes they really don't like being left to carry thier own heads about... they want/need a hand to lean on. But eventually they will get the hang of it, and the same goes for carrying the bit.

Then thers the mouth piece debate... I had an anglo mare, you could not ride her in a snaffle... she would flip herself over backwards, but put her in a curb... super. So it's all experimenting... you know your horse. As long as people are open to try something different, then I say great. It's the folk that treat symptoms, not causes that I have the biggest problem with.

As for your headstall issues, have you tried a headstall that uses waterties? those you can usually pull a bit tighter to hold the bit a little more steady...

[joe21]

Personally I think it's because way back
I think the brits just wanted to be a bit more continental, they tried to add too much French, or they just never progressed from the Latin roots or something. Just lazy if you ask me! (kidding… don’t start on me!).


FWIW, the English language (US, Brit, whatever) has Germanic roots. French, Spanish, Italian have Latin roots.


A single shanked bit is meant to be ridden in one hand, while anything jointed is ideal for two.

I would agree to a point. There are jointed curb bits (such as the "American Tom Thumb" that really aren't suited for anything. When talking western bits, any leverage bit is designed for neck (one handed) reining and is not meant to be used two handed. This applies whether the bit is jointed or not.


If he's fine in the English bridle but not the Western, it may be that he just doesn't *like* the bit in the Western bridle. You can swap the English bit into the Western bridle to see if he goes better; if he does, you can just get a second one.

Seems like the simplest and best solution to the original problem.

[cvb]

However... some horses are going to like the bit held up, esp if thats what they are used too... like when a horse is reschooled to go western from english, sometimes they really don't like being left to carry thier own heads about... they want/need a hand to lean on. But eventually they will get the hang of it, and the same goes for carrying the bit.

As for your headstall issues, have you tried a headstall that uses waterties? those you can usually pull a bit tighter to hold the bit a little more steady...

Just to clarify (and I know this is not what you are saying, so it is just clarifying), Fi doesn't have her bit *high*, just steady. That's what I needed ti listen to.

She was actually backed western and english is her "second language" rather than her first. So I think she is more aware and sensitive to my "interference" as a rider :rolleyes: She tends to offer quite a lot (in appropriate frame for what we are doing) and then its up to me to ride it properly :cool:

The western bridle I have is a fond favourite, which is why I was using it. I just swapped her into the bridle I used for dressage instead. I have a show western bridle I can use which should be better (if/when her DJD is ok enough for her to go to a competition :o )

[Roheryn]

I'd been wondering what water ties were, and why they're called that, and why there are ties instead of buckles/clips/screws/etc. on some reins and headstalls.

My guy is happier with the bit at 1-2 wrinkles, any lower and he's not happy. I once bridled a western mare I didn't know and she immediately let me know she was not happy with the bit's position (apparently someone had adjusted the cheekpieces and made them too long).

We're gonna try him in a French link next lesson and see how he goes in that. If he likes it, we'll try it on his western bridle and see how he does. I'd love to get him out of the flash and out of cavessons altogether.

[Bronya]

I agree with Roheryn - my girl usually has one wrinkle. Any lower, and she's NOT happy. She tries to hold it higher with her tongue and gets very annoyed. I swap it back, and get a happy horse!

[qhlady]

Hi again,
Water ties are the little strips of latigo leather that are simply threaded through holes at the end of the cheek pieces and you just tie them in a simple knot they tend to be very secure, and unlike chicago screws, if you use them with a snaffle, they don't work loose and give you a little more option as to how tight the bit fits into the headstall... I have no clue why they are called water ties actually, but I know a man who may, so I will ask!

On to the wrinkles thing, I wasn't saying no wrinkles is better than any, just that you give the horse the choice... some carry it lower, so you adjust the cheek pieces to keep the bit in roughly that area... some want one wrinkle, so you adjust to help them hold it there... some like the gagged feeling, so you adjust to keep it there... if anyone thought I was implying the bit has to be low... well thats as bad as saying it HAS to be high?!