Horse - Human Mutual Grooming - your thoughts please.

[Whatanejit]

I had an Awwwwwwww! moment today with Cooper.

Every morning when I turn him into the field I take off his headcollar then scratch his left wither (under his rug), move to his right side and then scratch his right wither.

Just as a 'have a nice day in the field son' from Mum sort of scratch.

9.5 times out of 10 he stands and waits for it.

When I went to his right side today I was facing his Dock while scratching and he started to groom my back.

I scratched a little harder, then he rubbed me a little harder and then of course came the little nip - after all that is what they do to each other.

I didn't tell him off just made my back concave so that he would only get the jacket and not my skin.

This was the first time I have ever been in a mutually grooming situation with any horse.

I am currently reading 'The Horse's Mind by Lucy Rees and only this week have a read her comments on mutual grooming.

She mentions how humans often discourage it because of the horse contact yet it is a very natural behaviour for the horse.

Given all the speak about us humans having to have respect and distance and the horse must not come into our bubble - what do you guys think about horse - human mutual grooming and what are your experiences of it?

I personally felt that it was another 'special' moment between me and my boy and another development in our relationship.

[Iron Maiden]

The first time P tried to mutually groom me, I was rubbing dead skin off her udders & she nibbled my bum. It made me feel like a bit of a pervert!

Just an uptight human I guess...

[doris]

My welsh x appy pony will rub her mouth on my head whilst I rub her chest. She has never been to rough so I think this is perfectly OK. Normally have to wash my hair when I get home though as it's full of horse gob!

[Gracie]

Aww what a wonderful expirence.

I've never had that expirence with Cherry. When I scratch is whithers or under his belly, he just grooms the air with his teeth, flapping his lips.. maybe he was told off before for actually grooming a human!:D

[summerguest]

One of my arabs is into mutual grooming, generally knows he has to be gentle but does put in the odd nip.

But he has got a 'sense of humour' too, he likes to remove my wooly hat, or follow me around and nip my bum if I'm picking up droppings in his stable, he has actually pulled my jogging bottoms down before!

If your working in the field mending fencing etc he won't leave your side, he is very interested in everything....more like a dog!

I don't have a problem with it, aslong as you are aware that their teeth could do some major damage by mistake!

20 years ago I used to think it sweet that my old horse would rest his head on my shoulder and go to sleep, then one day quick as a flash he nipped my lip. 4 stitches later I looked like I'd had a bad dose of botox! The scar will never let my forget my old boy. (its not too bad ... but could have been a lot worse!)

[carthorse]

I don't encourage them to groom back simply because it can get a bit rough, especially if I'm only wearing a t-shirt. I don't tell them off but I will stop &/or move away & give them something else to groom, usually a rug over a door.

[Dina]

Awww,thats so cute:)
Chunky has never groomed me,and Dargi has once but he just licked me which was cute.But Joe will quite often mutual groom me when I am brushing him,its so cute and I like it because it makes me feel like we have bonded:)It also feels quite cool as well.

[acw295]

I had this with share pony once, she is very itchy so I always give her good scratch when I take her rug off, normally she just sticks her neck out and wobbles her lips and shows me which bits to do next :). But the other week she turned around and gently 'groomed' my hair. I thouht it was v. sweet :o :) , especially as she can be a tad mareish and I only normally see her once a week.

I think it is one of those things that you have to decide how you feel about it, sometimes it is best to not care what the 'experts' think, go with what feels ok for you :)

[Skib]

I've not done much grooming. But the first horse I ever groomed, at my first riding school, groomed my back. I liked grooming for this very reason.
But because it happened the first time, I regarded it as normal? He did it every time, and the other horses I have groomed have done it too. And no nips.
My friend's horse in Texas did it. And Sennie, I think. Have you been grooming Cooper tied up on a short rope Dee? because if he had been able to turn his head, surely he would have nuzzled your back in return?

[entreat]

it's cute, and touching, but dangerous. if you don't mind the risk that they'll bite you harder that would like, then ok, but personally, my skin is thinner than my horse & I'm not into pain, so no way!

[Kate F.]

I think it's up to the individual horse and human. It is possible to teach them it's OK to nuzzle back, but not to bite - which I've done with my big one - who can give me a lovely massage with that strong upper lip! My little mare just stretches her neck out, curls her upper lip over in a "parrot face" and says "MORE! ... HARDER!..." :D

One thing to bear in mind is the ritual that goes around mutual grooming with horses between each other, and how it reflects the herd order. Any horse can initiate mutual grooming, but if a lower ranking horse approaches a higher one, it must wait for permission to proceed, or risk being driven away. If the initiating horse is higher ranking, the other must accept or move away.

Most importantly from out point of view, when two horses finish grooming each other, the lower ranking will move away from the higher ranking. So when we mutually groom with our horses - or just give them a good scratch, when we finish we should make sure that the horse steps away out of out space, not that we just walk away. It doesn't need to step far - just one or two steps is fine - but we should establish our space again first, then move on ourselves.

It's only a small detail to us - but means a lot "in horse"! :D

[Whatanejit]

Thanks for all your replies and experiences:)

Skib, over the last 10 months mostly Cooper was groomed untied in his stable and when outside was always on a long rope when tied so that he could access his hay on the ground.

I think that is the key, that a lot of the time he has access to food when he is being groomed.

However, in the summer he was groomed a lot without food access and it didn't happen. I did get the pointy upper lip and neck stretching, though which is hilarious.

Thanks for the 'horse' traslations Kate F. That makes complete sense.

Of course, I got it wrong and stopped the grooming first and walked away:rolleyes: but I'll know better the next time.

Iron Maiden :D

[Wally]

Ahhh, we let them groom us all the time, some do get a bit overly but most don't nip.

As mentioned, you do need to make sure you know who the leader is in any situation.

[cazrider]

And Sennie, I think. He does indeed Skib, but not often.. you are amongst the privileged few.:) Sounds nice W'jit, and personally I can't see any harm in it. After all, you invite him in. I agree with what kateF says.

[carrieh]

Benny and I do the 'mutual grooming' and I love it! I feel very privileged when he does it. But he knows that he is only allowed to groom me on my back and on my bum, and that he is not allowed to nip. He is allowed to take my coat between his teeth and move it around as though grooming, but not close his mouth hard to nip.

He's very good and sticks to the rules.

[bellazebra]

Personally I don't mind them grooming me at all. In fact, I'm flattered every time one of my horses does something which suggests he thinks I understand his language. Mutual grooming is just that - something totally natural and important for the bond between horses. I'm just awestruck that they like to let me in on it, too.

[Herbie's mummy]

i love it lol, it feels really nice haha my pony used his lips and noi teeth LOL so he sticks to the rules :D!

[notpoodle]

angel is a rather rough mutual groomer, she gets a tad overzealous (and ive had bruises a couple of times. whoops! she means well but ... ouchie!) at times, so i encourage her to groom walls, buckets or her hay instead :p

Julia
x

[Forever~Autumn]

I have two mini shetland foals who are very shy, so I spend a lot of time in their stable with them. They are curious enough to come to me now and have a sniff, so today I started scratching them on their necks, withers and along the jawline and they both loved it! Their winter coats are approx 5 inches thick! Both groomed me back, which was very sweet.

[Wally]

That's how we make friends with the wild hill ponies we end up with.

[Rips]

I can't remember the first time Mocha actually groomed me, but it was well over a year of ownership anyway. She doesn't nip, just twiggles her lip on you and only for a few seconds at a time - she prefers to groom the wall!

Personal preference I think - I think its cute. What I don't like? Is when shes in season and you scratch the right places... she doesn't mutual groom....she spreads her legs and squirts :o

[Ptaty70]

I LOVE mutual grooming. CW didn't do it first of all, but slowly got into it. Same as with Whatanejit, he has hay a lot of the time, so it's only when he doesn't that he gets into it! he always just wibbles his top lip on the first thing he can find.

Gracie, CW used to just 'wibble' the air too, so i put my hand in front of his nose and he just gravitated towards it. Now he will do it anywhere which is great.

Kate, great advice re making them move out of our space. I shall make sure I do that next time. A true nugget!!

[Tharg]

Bit of mutual grooming with sh, tend not to encourage in case he gets a bit rough.

[LokiSofi]

Ted was the best mutual grome and was always very genlte about it just using his top lip.
Dakota doesn't do it........he'll look like he's going to but then panics and pulls away or just extends his lip instead.
My mums mare does it but I NEVER let her as she tends to go the whole hog and actually bites HARD as though she's grooming a shire horse.:rolleyes:

[jUmPingIsLifE]

Although cute (and i have done it before) How soon before the gentle nip becomes a hard bite, they wont know what they are doing wrong if you allow it "up to a point" Just dont want anyone missing a chunk of skin because 'its cute'

or at least that is what my instructer told me. same with "cute head rubbing on you" its only cute until the horse knocks you out cold. (happens a lot!)

[rianne21]

The first time P tried to mutually groom me, I was rubbing dead skin off her udders & she nibbled my bum. It made me feel like a bit of a pervert!

Just an uptight human I guess...
:D LMFAO sory you just made me cry that was really quite funny!!!!:D

[BecknSkye]

I often groom with Skye, but he's never showed me his teeth, ever, so that helps, and he knows biting gets him nowhere so he doesn't bother.
Raglan can't be trusted, his teeth come out without warning and he uses biting to get rid of you so he gets something out of it which kind of reinforces it.
For me, it depends on the horse.

[Little Dolphins]

Hey W'jit! Been reading the posts here but not commenting so far, cos I've not had the total experience:o blushblush

But HQ does do the lip gymnastics when I scratch her, and my "Aaaw" moment is when she gently nuzzles my hair as I do her front legs. This she does only for a second or two, but it feels like a "meeting moment' to me , anyway:) :) :)

Harley is a big strong girl, and I've almost had an arm crushed to mush as she has sandwiched it betwixt herself and the wall to get a 'power scratch' going!

Having seen the state of her field-mate's mane, I'd better watch out for the hair-nuzzles, too!:eek:

[rubysmum]

when our litle pony has shiatsu he always tries to groom the therapist - he's not normally allowed to groom cos he's owned by a 9yr old - but it did look really sweet - maybe i will rechristen the big hosses attempts to remove my head whilst tacking up as grooming rather than psycho attacks lol

[pengapenga]

All our horse like to mutually groom us. Frits gets a bit tooo enthusiastic about it all so I encourage him to groom the lead rope. Mysty is really into the mutual groom thing, she will quite often come up and start the grooming process, especially with my daughter. Paris grooms when given an injection:rolleyes:

[Mehitabel]

all ours do it, i love it. we teach them before they have teeth, so that when they get teeth they already know that we wince away and stop grooming back if they bite - that way hey learn to not use their teeth on us.
i do make a point, though, espeically with the colts and stallions, that i must start and end it - i have read that the dominant pair of a pair bond will initiate and end grooming, and especially with the stallions i don;t want them to even start thinking they are in charge of me. all our homebreds love a good mutual grooming/snogging session.

[happy highlande]

Mullet is heavily into mutaul grooming - he is very good at it. He doesn't bite- if you stop, he stops - same as with his equine pals. He will get strong - but only if you stratch hit hard - kinda you scratch me hard means you want scratch hard.

It is great - and Sassie (3yo nearly) is getting into it tooo- I get covered in slobber!!!

[Sexy Sietske]

My two youngsters are all over ya like a bad smell!! They are always up for mutal grooming and will often hint where they want scratching by positioning themselves so you can reach the 'itchy spot' and then nudging ya especially sietske in summer because she gets sweet itch:o They do tend to get a bit rough though and then it turns into a game...typical babies.

Now i tie them up next to each other so they can have a groom and play while im mucking them out which saves me getting chewed;)

[MelanieD]

I think it's cute, as long as you don't let the horse get pushy about asking for scratches. It is possible to teach them that keeping teeth off you gets them more scratches and using teeth makes the scratches go away. Best done in winter with many layers of clothing until they get the idea of keeping their teeth to themselves :)

Fatty looks at the itchy spot, pretends she can't quite reach, looks at me, then the itchy spot again and generally hints and acts pathetic until I give in and scratch :D

[Forever~Autumn]

Out of interest, if you initiated a grooming session with a foal, would they know enough body language yet to understand that you are dominant and therefore control the session????

Sorry if thats a bit muddled!:confused:

[Nik-n-Kia]

Awww how nice!!!

Kia only looks at me and growls as he is a bit bossy and he will only let me "groom" him if he starts it but he can be nippy so I tend not to instigate it.

He is the boss of any field he is in so lets just say he can be firm when I'm not scratching the right bit!!!!

Like me to scratch his tail though he will hollow his back and make little grunting noises to tell me he is enjoying it!!

sad huh??? :rolleyes:

Nikki xxxxx

[LindaAd]

I think it's cute, as long as you don't let the horse get pushy about asking for scratches. It is possible to teach them that keeping teeth off you gets them more scratches and using teeth makes the scratches go away. Best done in winter with many layers of clothing until they get the idea of keeping their teeth to themselves :)

Fatty looks at the itchy spot, pretends she can't quite reach, looks at me, then the itchy spot again and generally hints and acts pathetic until I give in and scratch :D

I'm happy to scratch them - they're never pushy about it, and they make wonderful faces when you get the right place. Gin used to treat humans as scratching posts, especially when her face was itchy after you'd taken the bridle off. It's not allowed any more ...

But I don't let them groom me, for the same reasons as MelanieD's -- they do use their teeth to groom each other, and I value my clothes. I have other ways of exchanging cuddles; I don't really want to pretend to be a horse :) :) :)

[Kate F.]

Out of interest, if you initiated a grooming session with a foal, would they know enough body language yet to understand that you are dominant and therefore control the session????

Sorry if thats a bit muddled!:confused:

Interesting question. Nature or nurture - is grooming a learned or an instinctive behaviour. I don't know, and don't know whether any studies have been done on this (it would be difficult, as you'd have to isolate foals from their mothers and other horses to find out - which would obviously not be desirable) but I think we can safely say that an understanding of the herd order, if it's not instinctive, is learned very quickly indeed. In the natural situation foals have to live within the herd rules right from the start in order to survive, so if any of it is learned, it would have to be learned very quickly. My feeling is that it is largely instinctive, then reinforced by mum and other horses.

Personally, I'm not keen on the term "dominant" as it has rather negative connotations. For a horse, the higher ranking members of the herd are trusted leaders, not "bosses" - but yes, I think a foal would understand the same principles of interation as an adult horse, and if any element is learned, we would just be reinforcing the same message it is getting from other horses.

I don't think horses have to learn body language - it's automatic and instinctive to them. It's humans who have to learn it - or rather re-learn to understand it. We have it as small children, then spoken language takes over, and most of us tend to forget, or rather filter it out unless it's really obvious. I think this is why young children often make embarrassingly accurate comments about other people - they can "read" people far better than adults. Similarly, you can put young children of all different cultures and languages together, and they communicate and play together just fine. Try it with teenagers and they've already become so dependent on spoken language, they have lost the ability to communicate with body language.

Generally, horses read people far better than people read horses! :D

[Mehitabel]

yes - i woudln't expect the foal at a few days old to know about herd hierarchy and who it can play with and how it has to mind its manners with, but certainly by a few mothns old, if it is out with other mares and their foals it will know that it may be able to climb on mum and bug her and share her dinner, but it had better not try taking liberties with the aunties.

that aspect of it is not something i stress particularly until the youngster is old enough to start thinking about its place in the herd with regard to me, and until it starts pushing the boundaries. then, i make sure that i subtly keep an upper hand in all sorts of tiny ways - initiating grooming, not responding when the horse tries to, making it move round me and not vice versa. by doing these little things as soon as the horse starts thinking it might be an idea to see if it can boss me about, you often avoid the 'kevins' altogether as it never occurs to the horse that it might not need to obey you. especially with colts and young stallions hitting puberty and wanting their own 'herd', it is important for later safety that they never even consider you as someone they can dictate terms to.

i also don't think it is about trusted leadership within the herd always. there might be the two bottom ranking members, neither of whom are anybody's trusted leader, but one can chase the other off its food - that is dominance, IMO, and in that situation the one who can chase will initiate the grooming to the chased.
while i want to be a trusted leader, i also need (for my own safety) to be the one who can chase the other off the food, not the one being chased - so i have no issues with the word dominant here. i think they are two separate things, and while one is highly desirable for the sake of a good and willing partnership, the other is essential to avoid getting splatted.

[teabiscuit]

ever since i was a kid i've used scratches to help create a bond with the neddys

i was never aware of this being the initiater makes you the boss, totally ignorant about it.

i always initiated scratching in the beginning as most horses i came across didn't associate humans with scratching
indeed i had to build up trust with some horses before they were at all happy with the idea of a human scratching them

the home bred horses have been scratched by humans from early days and they will initiate a scratch, by hooking you in to their chest with their chins.
i find this very endearing and would never dream of saying "oi you i'm the boss i initiate" at this point.

i think a horse has to trust you to engage in mutual grooming and i think its a huge compliment if a horse initiates it.

[Trewsers]

Aw, whatanejit, what a lovely moment! I have had them with the mini beast, once she "groomed" the back of my hand as I was leaving her one night. Recently, when I greet her, I scratch near her withers (quite hard) and she seeks out flesh (and can't find any cos its winter and I'm shrouded up in many layers) and grooms me back - she does a little lick nip and then grooms - its wonderful - makes picking poo in the pouring rain all worth while.........!!!

[Mehitabel]

the home bred horses have been scratched by humans from early days and they will initiate a scratch, by hooking you in to their chest with their chins.
i find this very endearing and would never dream of saying "oi you i'm the boss i initiate" at this point.

i think a horse has to trust you to engage in mutual grooming and i think its a huge compliment if a horse initiates it.


yes, it is endearing - and with a horse who has no particular issues about dominance or challenging 'their' human i quite agree. petal will hook me in to her as well, and that is fine by me. but i did originally say that with horses like stallions and colts who naturally want to be the herd leader, that is when i make a point of it. it does make a difference too - before i found out about it, i used to cheerfully let the boys start grooming, and since stopping letting them they are both actually considerably politer in terms of cheekiness, nipping etc.

[teabiscuit]

. it does make a difference too - before i found out about it, i used to cheerfully let the boys start grooming, and since stopping letting them they are both actually considerably politer in terms of cheekiness, nipping etc.

that's interesting. i haven't got a dominant horse to try it out on, but if i ever do i will remember :)

[Pottamus]

My boy loves to be scratched, particularly with the metal curry comb! The harder the better! He occasionally turns round to groom me back, but he is a bit rough no matter how many layers I have on...so I just keep out of the way so he does not get me! But I think it is a nice thing for them to do.

[Skib]

Just been sent this. Grand-daughter being groomed by a llama (definitely dominant). Sorry it isnt a horse but so funny that I cant resist posting.

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a303/Skib39/img001.jpg

[Mehitabel]

that's fabulous! :D

[Mehitabel]

here is me having a lovely snog with our stallion this morning
http://historicalfact.com/~es/pony%20pictures/tobykiss.jpg

he is quite the hairdresser, isn't he?

http://historicalfact.com/~es/pony%20pictures/tobykiss2.jpg

[Skib]

I love that picture Mehitabel.
So happy of both of you.
Do you ride him by the way?

[Mehitabel]

I love that picture Mehitabel.
So happy of both of you.
Do you ride him by the way?

not much these days - i backed him, and then his mum took over once he was cantering and he is her pride and joy and a real mummy's boy, so nobody else does much with him. i ride him at home sometimes, but he thinks i am a poor substitute for his real mum. :rolleyes:

[Kady A]

Mehitabel - your stallion is gorgeous!

My old girl Stella has always groomed me, a little too rough at times, but its part of our relationship, some people may not like it but I feel that its her accepting me as part of her little herd. Its always quite amusing when I get a liver chestnut butt in my face a not so subtle hint that she wants her bottom rubbing. I occasionally let her rub her head against my back, its funny as I go splat into the wall, and no matter how well groomed she is I always end up filthy. She has very few eyelashes and tends to get a little itchy in the eye area hence the rubbing, she then stands patiently whilst I bathe her eyes with cold tea. She is also very partial to grooming walls, and she has a habit of rubbing her bottom teeth up the wall - eurgh. Its something she has always done but it goes through me. Before anyone asks -there isn't anything wrong with her teeth its just a Stella thing, she is a chronic teeth grinder too.