Alternative to Dr Cook

[Rarah]

Rode my mare in my friends bitless bridle this evening in the school for the first time.

She seemed to go very well - much more forward going than normal and very relaxed. My mare is a summer headshaker so am willing to try anything to make life more comfortable for her.

Had a quick search on bitless bridles and I think it was a Dr Cook we were using.

Does anyone know if there are any cheap copies available that are decent quality?

It's too late to add it to my xmas list now, but my birthday's coming up soon! ;)

[hackedoff]

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/BITLESS-BRIDLE-STRESS-LESS-RIDING-PONY-COB-FULL_W0QQitemZ230061607336QQihZ013QQcategoryZ123483QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/BITLESS-BRIDLE-LARGE-HACKAMORE-DR-COOKES-TYPE-blk-FULL_W0QQitemZ250060141708QQihZ015QQcategoryZ123483QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Professional-Super-Pro-Bitless-Bridle-Cob-Size_W0QQitemZ270067655747QQihZ017QQcategoryZ123483QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Hackedoff x

[levi1739]

Halter and two lead ropes.

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a49/levi1739/259fx.jpg


Have fun, be safe

Jack

[Rarah]

Halter and two lead ropes.

Jack


:D Can't get much cheaper than that!

[puzzles]

an english hackamore!
or one of those halters-and-rope us parelli lot use!

[mayoguinness]

Yep I'd go for the presure halters and ropes! You've got the presure knots then as well to give extra feel.

[Crystal Fire]

Rope halters (like Parelli) aren't pressure halters, because they don't close on the horse's head. We've been round and round the idea of whether the knots act on specific pressure points on the head before and pretty much come to the conclusion with the help of vets that they don't. Lodge Ropes can talk about this as they make them.
An English or German hackamore can be quite a severe alternative to a bitted bridle. They have a strong mechanical action.
Pressure halters like the Dually, Pony Boy bridle and Dr Cook's close on the horse's head and are said to act on specific pressure points, particularly on the poll. Some horses object to this, so worth checking before buying.
Then rope halters or rope hackamores just act from the feel you put on the ropes.
I can't work out why some people use Dr Cook's, because they use them like a normal bridle with a constant pressure on the rein. This translates into constant squeeze on the horse's head (which a lot of horses put up with), but the Dr Cook's is designed to work on pressure and release. This means that you should see slack reins from time to time, and a release of the mechanism on the horse's head. In Aus I spoke to someone who retailed these bridles, and he only sold them with a set of instructions pointing this out.
There are cheap alternatives to the Dr Cook's, I think if you do some searches on bitless bridles you will find them. :)

[KateWooten]

I can't work out why some people use Dr Cook's, because they use them like a normal bridle with a constant pressure on the rein. This translates into constant squeeze on the horse's head (which a lot of horses put up with), but the Dr Cook's is designed to work on pressure and release. This means that you should see slack reins from time to time, and a release of the mechanism on the horse's head.

Personally, I can't see how people can ride like that with a bit either ! I rode with a girl the other day who has reins taut for an hour - little horse did everything it could to look for the release .. but there was none, so in the end the girl had taught the little horse to throw it's head about constantly ... no doubt she blames the horse for 'being naughty'. Bit or bitless, it's all in the release.

[Crystal Fire]

Personally, I can't see how people can ride like that with a bit either !
Tell me about it. :confused: Do riding schools teach release? Anyway, people tend to bring however they ride bitted to a bitless setup. Maybe when you go bitless it's a good time to re-visit things like soft flexion, seat aids and pressure and release. :)

[Chilli]

I don't mean to be rude, but why do think there is no pressure and relise when you have a contact ?

The presure is increasing the stength of the contact and the relise is reducing the strength, you won't be able to see this if its done well only the rider will be able to feel how much force is or is not beuing used.

I ride with a DR Cook and a rope hackamore with a contact which i try to keep as light as the weight the horse feels from the reigns hanging down on a slack reign, i might not manage it all the time but its where i want to be.

The same can be said for contact riding with a bit, if the horse is carrying itself then the contact will be light whatever you are using and thats down to training and skill.

I appreciate that you see a lot of people with heavy contacts but that doesn't mean it has to be that way or that it is supposed to be that way.

[hackedoff]

I'd agree with that, with the Dr.C you can ride with the very lightest of contacts that offfers release but still to the English-trained horse says "I'm still here". The proof of the pudding will always be the eating though- if the horse is switched off dull or out of control then the contact is wrong.

[puzzles]

ha you try telling that to my riding intructor!
as some of you may know, puzzles is an extremely tense, reactive and live-wire horse, so when we went for our first 'quiet' (well, quieter!) canter in a lesson, when i praised him at the end i released the contact and got told off!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
(ha, he knew i meant reward, bless his sparkling white cotton cocks!)
(see what i mean anyone who knows my instructor is old bag!) :-D

[cvb]

Halter and two lead ropes.

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a49/levi1739/259fx.jpg


Have fun, be safe

Jack

But pleeeeeease check out your insurance situation. There is a piece in one of this month's magazines in UK (Your Horse I think) looking at nh generally and there is a comment about the insurance situation regarding riding in a halter.... it is not clear and you could end up being liable for a lot of money in the event of an accident.

(don't yell at me about this - I don't make the rules !)

[shoniedaspony]

ive been told by some people that my insurance will be voided if i am riding without a bit or without a saddle...cant find anything in my insurance to confirm this, but im no legal bod!

[cvb]

there's something which tends to say you have to have taken appropriate measures to stay in control or something like that.

WHich I think puts the ball in the rider's court to prove that what equipment they were using did give them control

[julia gulia]

Catch twenty two I'm afraid...it all comes down to the training of the horse doesn't it? So one can have an extremely well trained horse who will work nicely bit less....and a not so well trained horse which doesn't work well in anything (because it has no training)...but if you put someone on the untrained horse with a bit....then you are legally covered because you have been seen as taken appropriate measures to stay in control of any " unforeseen situation". So I guess it would make sense (as a yard owner ) to put the client on the green horse with the bit in his mouth . By the way?? I'm not saying that a horse with a bit is not safe and the one without is...just find the scenario ludicrous. What a mess our legal system is....The day will come when schooling barns must close their doors because they cannot guarantee safety to each and every person. 'tis sad:o

[levi1739]

I sure won't yell at you cvb. :) The liability issue is something we all need to be aware of. Here in the USA the insurance may be different. I'm not really sure what coverage I would have when riding, though I know we have liability coverage for loose horses that might cause damage/loss.

I'm not advocating riding in a halter anywhere that an accident might happen. Practice in a pen or arena. The OP indicated that she rode in an arena in a sidepull and wanted to know a cheaper variety. My view is that a halter and rope offers a very cheap alternative to a "sidepull" and operates the same way.

I do believe that every rider should begin "lessons" in a halter and one lead rope. (again, in a pen or arena) One of my favorite horseman says, "if you can't ride with one rein, how can you manage two?" Anybody that learns to ride here will start this way, and their first task is to get the horse to stand still. Doesn't take long to learn, but then all of our horses are well versed in the "one rein stop".

And that's the very best insurance I own. ;)

If your going to try riding "bitless", do it in a "safe place". Safe is always the top priority for both the horse and rider. :)


Have fun, be safe

Jack

[cvb]

julia said it well. The silly thing is that it is about the *perception* of safety and control not the reality :(

There are various exercises that BHS now tell their trainee instructors should not be done (even in an arena) because of the safety issue. Yet these are not crazy things like hanging upside down at a gallop :rolleyes:

[Crystal Fire]

I didn't say you can't use pressure and release with contact, I commented on the fact that I see a lot of people who don't. And the slight release you give with a bit while maintaining contact wouldn't make a lot of difference with a Dr Cook's, you'd probably have to give more than you were used to. I have watched quite a few people riding with Dr Cook's bridles and none of them were giving enough release to make a difference, there was constant pressure on the nose.
Not saying anyone here would ride like that :D

[Stella2]

julia said it well. The silly thing is that it is about the *perception* of safety and control not the reality :(

There are various exercises that BHS now tell their trainee instructors should not be done (even in an arena) because of the safety issue. Yet these are not crazy things like hanging upside down at a gallop :rolleyes: Sorry, I know this is a bit of a side issue, but what things are the BHS advising shouldn't be done now?

[KateWooten]

but why do think there is no pressure and relise when you have a contact ?


I agree totally - and simply by watching the action of the rider's hands, it's not easy to see that a good english rider is giving a request, and a release. it is easy for an outsider to watch a good english rider ride with contact and mistakenly think that the horse is not getting any release signals.

However, what I'm talking about, and I suspect what CrystalFire has seen also, is what I witnessed on my recent trip to England. I saw several riders around my local area there ... and watched constant hard contact with no release, throughout an entire ride. How can I be so sure ? Because I watched the horse fight, fight, fight ... with tension in his face, with a stiff neck, with his nose bumping around forward, mouth open, straining to find the release ... and there wasn't one. This is no way to ride, it is very poor horsemanship, and I have to say was very much in the majority there.

oh - thinking about it, most of you know that I met and rode with both neen and Skib from this board, and I did not see either of those two nice ladies ride like that at all - it's not a universal way to ride, just very very common.

Kate

[jinglejoys]

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y190/jinglejoys/cid_001e01c702cbb9e4e1707a1a8351you.jpg

I drive Blue in a Saddlechariot using a "Spirit" bridle that I got off e.bay for her
http://www.canadiantack.com/bitlessbridle.htm
The Dr.Cooks is better quality though

[joe21]

Catch twenty two I'm afraid...it all comes down to the training of the horse doesn't it? So one can have an extremely well trained horse who will work nicely bit less....and a not so well trained horse which doesn't work well in anything (because it has no training)...but if you put someone on the untrained horse with a bit....then you are legally covered because you have been seen as taken appropriate measures to stay in control of any " unforeseen situation". So I guess it would make sense (as a yard owner ) to put the client on the green horse with the bit in his mouth . By the way?? I'm not saying that a horse with a bit is not safe and the one without is...just find the scenario ludicrous. What a mess our legal system is....The day will come when schooling barns must close their doors because they cannot guarantee safety to each and every person. 'tis sad:o

Julia,

I see your point, but you should look at the other side of it. A "trained" horse is a very subjective term. When you walk into court, how exactly does one convince a judge and jury (who may or may not know anything about horses) that "horse A" is trained enough to ride in a halter, and "horse B" is not? Anyone can get "expert" trainers to take both side of the debate.

A bit is a very common piece of equipment, and it becomes an "objective" means of control. Most horse "experts" would agree that more people (regardless of riding ability) have more control on more horses with a bit than without. After that, there are many possible degrees of negligence, which become more subjective.

An instructor put a new rider on a green horse and the rider got hurt? If you can show that the instructor knew the horse was green (i.e. dangerous to the rider), you have grounds to make a case.

There is some sanity in the legal system. Many states in the U.S. are enacting "limited liability laws." Basically it means that horseback riding is an inherently dangerous activity. By deciding to take part in it, the rider is assuming a degree of liability and responsibility for any injury they might sustain. Pretty much common sense.

This doesn't protect the instructor who knowingly puts a beginner on a professional rodeo bucking horse - but it should (hopefully) do away with many of the nuisance law suits.

[Stella2]

Julia,

I see your point, but you should look at the other side of it. A "trained" horse is a very subjective term. When you walk into court, how exactly does one convince a judge and jury (who may or may not know anything about horses) that "horse A" is trained enough to ride in a halter, and "horse B" is not? Anyone can get "expert" trainers to take both side of the debate.

A bit is a very common piece of equipment, and it becomes an "objective" means of control. Most horse "experts" would agree that more people (regardless of riding ability) have more control on more horses with a bit than without. After that, there are many possible degrees of negligence, which become more subjective.

Must say I agree with Joe and this applies in English and Welsh law too (and I'm guessing the Scottish system).

I think anyone riding without a bit in a public place would be very vulnerable under the law if their horse was involved in an accident. I had thought that under British law it is illigal to ride on the road without a bridle (maybe a bitless would fulfill that) and a saddle. Also under the law if a court finds that you have knowingly breached the law or taken a risk to others (that is, you have been negligent) you may receive a prison sentence instead of, or in addition to having to pay damages.

[Chilli]

I didn't say you can't use pressure and release with contact, I commented on the fact that I see a lot of people who don't. And the slight release you give with a bit while maintaining contact wouldn't make a lot of difference with a Dr Cook's, you'd probably have to give more than you were used to. I have watched quite a few people riding with Dr Cook's bridles and none of them were giving enough release to make a difference, there was constant pressure on the nose.
Not saying anyone here would ride like that :D

I'm sorry but i don't agree, if a horse is responding to a signal through the reigns then it can be as light as possible whatever the tack, if it's responding due to the pressure/discomfort/pain form the force put in the reigns then thats a different thing.

If people aren't using the tack properly (any type) is it the tacks fault ? Would the people with terrible contact be any better with there aids using a rope halter ?

I can't work out why some people use Dr Cook's, because they use them like a normal bridle with a constant pressure on the rein.

Because they are the same, just one has a bit and the othr doesn't you can ride both with or without contact, ok 1 has two pressure points and the other has 1 but thats makes no differance to how you use them.

At the end of the day if they don't have the skill to use there hands it won't matter what they use.

Or maybee i just don't understand :o

[jinglejoys]

"There is some sanity in the legal system. Many states in the U.S. are enacting "limited liability laws." Basically it means that horseback riding is an inherently dangerous activity. By deciding to take part in it, the rider is assuming a degree of liability and responsibility for any injury they might sustain. Pretty much common sense."

Great!AS we seem to have imported this insanity from the States can we import the this bit of common sense too?:D

[Crystal Fire]

OK - the Dr Cook's bridles I have seen used didn't release easily enough to respond to subtle change of contact. They only released when you gave a "big" release - does that make sense? I have ridden in one as well...
Of course people can keep constant pressure on whatever the horse has on it's head. There are a lot of indifferent riders out there who will be heavy handed and give no release regardless of what they ride in. Personally if this is the case I'd prefer they were just hanging on with a rope halter, that is putting pressure on the nose, than a pressure bridle which is squeezing on the poll, the jaw and under the chin. Does that explain what I'm on about a bit more clearly? I'm not arguing with you Chilli, I think I'm agreeing with you. :)
I don't really think a Dr Cook and a bitted bridle are the same though, but it's probably not really worth the discussion and is a bit off topic.
I guess if I have an accident while riding bitless I'll be quoting my written agreement with the insurance company, and possibly backing it up with my PNH and Silversand certificates? Interesting eh?

[Chilli]

I was just coming to edit this, it seems to come across as rude i don't mean it too.

The thing with a DR cook is that its no different to a bitted bridle in that if you can't stop/control a horse with a bit your not going to be able to with a DR Cook, in the 2+ years i've been riding with them on a few horses they have always gone the same in a bit or a DR Cook once they have got used to the different feel of the Dr Cook.

The only thing about a DR Cook that i am aware of is that i have heard of a couple of vets recomend them for head shakers.

P.S The leather Dr Cooks release easily enogh, the copies with the X under the chin i can image don't so well, assuming your using pressure and not just comunicating ;)

[Crystal Fire]

No, not rude at all!
You know when you said that you try to ride with a contact that is as light as the horse feeling the weight of the reins? That's what I do as well, regardless of what the horse is wearing. But how many people do you see doing that? I know 3 people who ride in a Dr Cook and they all have constant tension in the rein - that to me is not using it in the way that is intended.

[cvb]

Sorry, I know this is a bit of a side issue, but what things are the BHS advising shouldn't be done now?

To be fair I meant when I did my AI, which was 1990 and hardly "Now" ;) so it may have come full circle. But things like "legs away" were being limited, plus bringing your legs right up (you could roll off backwards etc)

It seemed a bit knee-jerk reactionto me. Instead of teaching risk assessment, there just seemed to be this view not to do certain things :o

[jinglejoys]

Anyone tried the Nurtural?
As in http://www.nurturalhorse.com/ ?

[LodgeRopes]

CVB.......
Cathy, i have read almost every one of your replies to posts on the forum...
but in reply to your last post on this thread, i have to say "What the...."!!!

Was that a code for a clandestine meeting with a shady underworld character, or a greenlight message for an attack on a foreign outpost in Uppercumbuckna west????

legs....knees....risk assesment..

Just an excuse to wish Cathy and all the NR forum members a safe and merry christmas

Have fun & ride safe

cheers from a bushfire smokey land downunder
cheers all...have a cool yule:cool:

[Stella2]

CVB.......
Cathy, i have read almost every one of your replies to posts on the forum...
but in reply to your last post on this thread, i have to say "What the...."!!!

Was that a code for a clandestine meeting with a shady underworld character, or a greenlight message for an attack on a foreign outpost in Uppercumbuckna west????

legs....knees....risk assesment..

Just an excuse to wish Cathy and all the NR forum members a safe and merry christmas

Have fun & ride safe

cheers from a bushfire smokey land downunder
cheers all...have a cool yule:cool::confused: :confused: :confused:

However, I completely understand Cvb. I guess its a 'lost in translation' situation ;)

Merry Christmas :)

[Chilli]

But how many people do you see doing that? I know 3 people who ride in a Dr Cook and they all have constant tension in the rein - that to me is not using it in the way that is intended.

All bits, bridles, halters, hackamores etc work on pressure/discomfort/pain in some way or another (the DR Cook is SUPPOSED to be vitualy impossible to cause pain) and all have the same use, to control the horse as i understand it. You could say if it's controling the horse its being used properly.

But the reason i posted is i realy think you have the DR Cook all wrong, if you look at it i don't think you can say it's designed to be used on a loose reign, not that you can't, but if you do the X starps can easily get twisted which is one of the problems a lot of people have with them especially when they are new before the leather is broken in, i really think it's designed as an option to a normal bitted bridle used with a contact, after all it talks about getting the FEI to change rules to alow it in Dressage, show hunter etc competitions where a contact is required.

Persoanlly i dissagree about rope halters, i think hanging onto one of those is much worse than a soft padded leather DR Cook or normal halter. you have a thin rope which can slide about with all the pressure going through that small contact patch after all thats why people use them because they give a clearer signal/more pain ?

Maybee people hanging onto Dr Cooks, halters or bouncing around on treeless saddles is the problem with "NH" ? or maybee those people are on a journey the're just not that far along the path yet ?

Maybee tack, training methods are irelivent and the only thing that matters is the intent behind the actions ?

But maybee i'm wrong :confused:

Off toppic and Shutting up :)

[levi1739]

I don't want to get into the "contact vs no contact" argument but do feel that most inexperienced riders (less than 200 hours) do not have the "hands" to maintain a light contact. Sadly, it is these riders that are often seen "hanging" on the reins. I will mention that with young horses it's important to "exagerate the release".

CrystalFire said,

You know when you said that you try to ride with a contact that is as light as the horse feeling the weight of the reins? That's what I do as well, regardless of what the horse is wearing. But how many people do you see doing that?

Here's a pic of my best teacher in action. She's feeling the 'weight of the reins'. Her tails telling me of her displeasure, and I've just "picked up" the reins. Man she's hard to please, ;) but she does make me be a better rider. :cool:

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a49/levi1739/254fx.jpg

You better not ride her with very much contact. :eek: She's very quick to correct that type of rider. It's not the tack that matters, it's all about the timing of the "contact and release". I've never used a Dr. Cook (rarely use rope halters either) since it's all about using less pressure that we search for here.


Have fun, be safe

Jack

[shoniedaspony]

not allowed to do round the world anymore i think unless there is someone holding the horse, and definately not moving...i remember having to do round the world in trot, with only the lead horse being led...was very amusing!!

[cvb]

legs....knees....risk assesment..


hands... knees.... and bumpsadaisy ?

OK. "Legs away" is when the rider is asked to take the leg away from the saddle from the hip. Should be able to do both at once, and in fact doing one at a time can result in some nasty twisty and crookedness :( But there was a worry that both legs away means the rider is *only* sitting on their seat bones and any unexpected movement from the horse might dislodge them. I seem to remember you could do both legs at the halt ?

(Note: there is a risk with this exercise. if the rider gets cramp, stop doing it. I don't know if it is medically correct or not, but there were comments about permanently affecting the hips ! if you got pain that is)

Bringing both legs up - should really have said knees - as in getting the rider to adopt almost a jockey-like position but often w/o stirrups. Again the rider is on seat bones only (which is why it is a great exercise) but could just roll backwards if the horse moved unexpectedly.

There were more, but I think I have blanked them out. I think it was things like you could jump a grid with either no reins, or no stirrups, but not without both (which we used to do in PC etc).

SO rather than teach us what exercises not to do (a list), shouldn't they have taught us how to assess the risk and make an educated decision ?

Ho hum - guess that is idealist of me :rolleyes:

and a merry christmas to you guys too :D

[Crystal Fire]

That is a great photo levi1789. I am wondering, do you work towards riding in collection? To ask your horse to work from behind, lift up her back and enage athletically? Or do you work in a relaxed outline and sort of "western pleasure" shape?
I'm pondering this at the moment, as I have one pony riding bitless with relaxation and long and low, and now feel it's time to start picking her up and asking her to work in a way that would be better biomechanically for her.
(The other rides in a bit and I had the opposite problem - ask him to lower his head after years of being pulled into a false outline!).

[Lili & Morgan]

Yes I am wondering too.

Do you do Western riding, lifting the back by rolling the spurs under the belly to lift it, while asking a vertical flexion?

Or do you do more dressage way ... transition, transitions, transitions, circles, transition on circles ... wash and repeat ...

[levi1739]

Collection is something that I "play" with from time to time. As I am training my horses to "carry" beginners, safety issues are where I direct most of my energy with horses. We don't show horses at all, so I'm not concerned with a judges opinion of how my horse is going. When a horse "feels lite" on all four feet, I'm happy.

I don't use spurs at all, (well, very rarely ;) ) but I do use my "leg aids" as if I had them on. I will put my toe down, raising my heel into the horses rib to help them "round". My riding skills aren't the best :rolleyes: and learning to "apply" the leg at the right "moment" is something I'm working on myself.

To gain the 'softness of feet' I like in a horse, my favorite tool is "troting serpentines". My horses all do a lot of "flexing", and a few minutes of "flexing at the trot" really gives me the feel I'm after. I "pull and release" on one rein, while encouraging forward with my leg. On the trail we try and ride with loose reins and expect our horse to carry itself, but horses don't always "pay attention" and need some "slowing down" at times. When they are listening and soft, they carry their head a bit in front of vertical, with the poll level with withers.

Understand that I usually ride in a snaffle bit. I just believe that all of us should learn how to "control" our horse in a halter. It seems that a lot of attention is given to horses "shape" (physically) by riders who are having problems just "stopping/steering" their horses. Those people need to spend some time in an arena/roundpen learning the one rein stop and how to use it to communicate with your horse. It's truely a "switch" to their brain,

Not sure if that answers your questions lil/crystal, but human words are hard to put into horse language. ;)


Have fun, be safe

Jack

[Chip]

MY husband can make you a Dr Cook type, for a fraction of the price. Lots of people, myself included, using them, Either Biothane or web or leather. Please contact me if interested.(Look on link in siggy)