Choosing a StALLION

[Libbyo]

How do I choose a stallion for Cilla?

Libbyo :)

[ImaLittleBoston]

I dont really know. but because im a begginer, I would go by conformation, temperment, movement, what he's thrown before, breeding (any good lines), uhmm.. height, build, et cetera, its almost like horse shopping :)
I would also check what the babies the mare has thrown look like (if she has)

If I were looking for willow, I would most likely choose him >> http://highmeadowqhs.tripod.com/id1.html
because i've seen something he's thrown, he's got good confomation (imo), Nice height, awesome temperment (saw him at a show), and willow has thrown a nice filly.

Eta : also a nice feature, his foal was in my favorite movie.

[KateWooten]

Before even thinking of breeding your mare, you need a clear understanding of her faults and strengths, and you need to fully understand how to breed out those faults, and capitalise on her strnegths in the youngster. You need a definite idea of the type, and use of the ensuing foal. You need to know what sells, what the markets are for what type of horse. Yes, I know, you probably will say the foal is for you, and will never be sold ... but none of us can say 'never' or 'forever', our circumstances change and slaughterhouses are filled with young horses that someone saw fit to breed from their beloved mare. Have a good hard look at your mare, and really decide if she is the best of the best, worth contributing to breed for the next generation.

[Skyhuntress]

Kate nailed it on the head. Before you even start looking for a stallion, you need to be highly critical of your mare and find out what her faults and strengths are; personality wise, conformation wise and ability wise.

For example, if you have a mare who has a lovely temperment, weak hocks and a lovely trot but an average canter, and you want a foal who would be good in dressage and jumpers, you'd look for a stallion who has a tendency to strengthen backs and hocks, has produced both dressage horses and jumpers and has an incredible canter.

It's a tough process, but a LOT easier once you determine what you want to see in your foal that isnt there in your mare.

And, as Kate said, before you do ANYTHING, take a look at the mare and make sure she is worth breeding to begin with. No matter what people say, that swaybacked, pigeon toed, sweetheart of a horse should NOT be bred ;)

[Libbyo]

Thanks for this. My desision to breed from Cilla has been a very thoughtout one. To date Ive asked on the forum, my instructor, Cillas back specialist and her vet and others. Also looked into her own breeding Mum Grade A and Dad Carnaval Drum. I am starting out with the belief that the foal will not be for me to ride but to own, but possibly for my RI who is working her way up the line of young riders and has very high hopes and aims.

Cilla is of my primary importance and I want to limit her risks as well as not introduce a substandard foal into an ever overcrowded horse world.

So. I start with a aspirational wish list for the foal. And a reality list of Cillas making and go from there.

But how do I put the two together. Is there any reading I can do or reaearch I can take?

THanks again

Libbyo :)

[Lgd]

Aside from do I or don't I.

Height of mare
Type of mare
What job the foal is to have.
Mare's strengths and weaknesses.
Any breed preferences you may have yourself.

Those will immediately narrow the field for your stallion choice.

For a maiden mare you should be looking for a stallion that is no more than 4 inches taller, preferably only 2" taller.

I've bred my own foal this year so my 'thought' processes were:

Mare 16hh, I prefer a 'smaller' horse and she is 7/8 TB so went for a 16.2hh max.

Foal is for high level dressage, Mum has a record to Inter I level competitively and works GP, stallion needed to be competing at similar or higher level, preferably international calibre.

ABsolute musts for me were good temperament/trainability and a good soundness record. Preference for shorter-coupled type - personal pref and also they tend to be more powerful for dressage. I like Dutch stock, not so keen on Hanoverians as they tend to be longer backed as a breed.

Peri's weaknesses - needs more suspension in trot work, touch croup high, bit straight in hind leg. Stallion therefore needed to have strengths in these areas and to be passing them on to his offspring. 16yo having first foal, so need good fertility in the stallion.

Peri's strengths - 9 walk, 8 canter, big front end with big free shoulder action, good trainability and temperament, short-coupled, powerful paces, excellent soundness record.

Preference for AI as she is still in ridden work. UK based stallion so as to have fresh or chilled semen available.

That sorted out my initial target group, after that I asked around for recommendations from knowledgeable breeder friends, did a lot of internet trawling and narrowed the choice down to about 6 stallions. It was then send for DVDs, stud cards etc. Narrowed down further to three. First stallion was nice but not quite what i wanted when seen in the flesh. Number 2 ticked all the boxes and really dinged my bell when we visited him. Very professional stud set-up with good conception record, stamps his stock.

So who was he:

Mooiman a KWPN approved son of Flemmingh.

www.holdenfolddressage.com if you want to see him.

The result: http://groups.msn.com/upsaddle2/lgd.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=15699

http://groups.msn.com/upsaddle2/lgd.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=15700

Reserve champion at her grading inspection, ticks all the boxes :D

[Gripper]

As others have covered the rights and wrongs I will give you this advice,

First of all are you going to send Cilla away to have her covered or do you keep her at home. Would you want her to have a natural or AI? AI will allow you to keep her at home and also give you access to far more stallions. Although you will need to put a bit more aside in vets fees.

Think of what you are breeding the foal for, Dressage, jumping, eventing as this will assist in deciding your stallion. There are masses of stallions in this country but in reality apart from Racing Stallions they are mostly budget stallions. Someone mentioned Mooiman who is a good example of a budget stallion, not really going to set the world on fire but doing small tour which is more than most British based stallions. However if you are willing to invest a few hundred more you can get a far superior quality stallion abroad who has either progeny that have proved themselves or the stallion is doing big tour and winning!!

In saying that, British Breeders are getting very promising young stallions on loan for a covering season from the big studs in Europe who want to get into the UK market so there are bargians to be had.

However for people breeding out of their own mares you are probably best just finding something that you like, will give you sellability if you have to part with the foal and accept the chances of breeding the next gold medal winning horse are pipe dreams.

[Libbyo]

As others have covered the rights and wrongs I will give you this advice,

First of all are you going to send Cilla away to have her covered or do you keep her at home. Would you want her to have a natural or AI? AI will allow you to keep her at home and also give you access to far more stallions. Although you will need to put a bit more aside in vets fees.

Cilla I think is going to a yard run by our yard owners friend, who take mares for insemination and get them on their way. They then come back to us when the pregnacy is stablished. The Yard Owner is sending a couple of mares as well. Oh yes we are going for AI

Think of what you are breeding the foal for, Dressage, jumping, eventing as this will assist in deciding your stallion. There are masses of stallions in this country but in reality apart from Racing Stallions they are mostly budget stallions. Someone mentioned Mooiman who is a good example of a budget stallion, not really going to set the world on fire but doing small tour which is more than most British based stallions. However if you are willing to invest a few hundred more you can get a far superior quality stallion abroad who has either progeny that have proved themselves or the stallion is doing big tour and winning!!

Im breeding a foal that jumps preferably.Am happy to spend a bit, but not to bank role her if you know what I mean

In saying that, British Breeders are getting very promising young stallions on loan for a covering season from the big studs in Europe who want to get into the UK market so there are bargians to be had.

This sounds interersting

However for people breeding out of their own mares you are probably best just finding something that you like, will give you sellability if you have to part with the foal and accept the chances of breeding the next gold medal winning horse are pipe dreams.

I more than understand a gold medal winner is a rarity of a pipe dream, but a good jumping horse with a great attitude will do us well. More than that. Not vital, but hey woulnt refuse it.

This is Cilla today. The scaring on her front leg you can see was done when her brother was a yearling. He pushed her into a fence post. She is 100% sound on her leg and moves well. Physo, vet etc are very happy and say it will not impeed her carring a foal. Shes 15.2hh and 9 years old by the way.

Thanks to everyone already. Im taking your coments in, and processing them. Keep the coments comming. Cillas precious.


Libbyo :)

[Skyhuntress]

She's a cute mare. If I was looking to breed her, I'd be looking for a stallion with a better topline, especially in the neck area. Her legs are nice, although the pasterns are long, so a stallion with shorter pasterns wouldn't be a bad idea.

It also wouldn't hurt for her to have more bone, so I wouldn't breed her to a lighter type stallion. I'd go for more of a heavier warmblood or ID or something like that so that the foal is a bit thicker

But that's just my opinion :)
Good luck with whoever you choose

[chev]

Cilla's nice :) Her weaker points are her topline (although her neck is set on nicely, she does lack topline there) and she's not very deep through the loins - I'd be looking at stallions who are strong in those areas.

I don't think her pasterns are that long - and they are a good angle and match her feet, but I'd look for stallions with a shorter canon - Cilla's isn't overly long but could be better.

Disagree with StormArion about looking at heavier stallions - I wouldn't use ID on her *because* she's of a lighter build. IDs are pretty substantial horses and cross well with TB, but on fine mares you can have problems with foals that are too big to deliver easily and also run the risk of breeding a foal that's heavy in body but still doesn't actually have the bone.

A lighter warmblood type or substantial TB would probably complement her well. At her height I'd stick to stallions of 16.2hh and under too.

I love Mooiman - his progeny are special too.

But teh devil in me would be looking at Spanish stallions too... :D

[Skyhuntress]

Disagree with StormArion about looking at heavier stallions - I wouldn't use ID on her *because* she's of a lighter build. IDs are pretty substantial horses and cross well with TB, but on fine mares you can have problems with foals that are too big to deliver easily and also run the risk of breeding a foal that's heavy in body but still doesn't actually have the bone.


That's actually a good point. I should have put ISH instead of ID (which I was thinking :rolleyes: ) I would still look for a stallion who has more bone though, just because your mare is of the finer type. But as chev said, be careful not to pick too heavy :)

[Bronya]

Just one more thing to add. I have been told, and it is true: 'Never breed from a mare you could not bear to lose'. Things do (very rarely but it happens) sometimes go wrong. Not a nice thing to think about, but you do need to consider it before you breed. It is for that reason that my horse will never have a foal. In theory I'd love to breed her, as she's perfect except for her stifles, and all I'd have to do is find a stallion with much more bent legs (hers are too straight), but she is my little girl, I love her to bits and couldn't bear it if anything happened.

[amandaco]

i agree with ldg i went through a similar process
and also ended up with a mooiman filly!!!!

[**jet**]

LGd and Amandao-great minds think alike:D my mare going to Mooiman in two weeks

[blackhorses]

She's a lovelly mare but I would find a stallion that will put more bone on her as she is quite light, also something with better topline and more power in the backend and a bit more depth through the girth, as someone has suggested a spanish stallion would be a definite good choice. I'm not keen on modern warmbloods as they always seem to carry the rider so much on the forehand, the spanish breeds tend to have better rider carrying abilities - just my opinion though! How about Icon - partbred spanish or Olhao - Lusitano? Or even friesian - they have spanish blood and are compact, we put our TB's to our stallion Wessel and have got some really good results.
Good luck in finding the right stallion!:D

[IndigoW]

If you want to breed something to jump, why would you use a dressage stallion!! If you want a jumper look at a jumping stallion!

[blackhorses]

Jumping stallions tend not to have really compact conformation, and tend to be a bit weak in the areas her mare isn't strong in - most are warmbloods nowadays, besides look at Icons dad he is a Lusitano and has sired successfull jumpers, you want to aim for a correct horse first and foremost, there is no guarentee that breeding to a jumper is going to produce a jumper - it depends on what the horse enjoys and is good at. As long as the youngster has really good conformation you can put it to any job. I think people often stereotype different breeds, like for example friesians - people have this idea they are only a dressage/driving horse - they can jump perfectly well, one of my yearling colts is always jumping gates to get to food:rolleyes: , andalucians and lusitanos are only for dressage /driving yet they can jump no problem as well, that stallion Olhao says in his info he can jump quite nicely. I was merely stating the type of stallion I would put to a mare like that to help correct her weak points, besides she will be contributing 50% of her genes so it will still be lighter than any of these stallions.

[amandaco]

If you want to breed something to jump, why would you use a dressage stallion!! If you want a jumper look at a jumping stallion!

a good deal of the dressage stallions have jumping lines-good for the paces/although if you want to breed a jumper i would use a stallion that throws jumpers from mares like yours.

[amandaco]

She's a lovelly mare but I would find a stallion that will put more bone on her as she is quite light, also something with better topline and more power in the backend and a bit more depth through the girth, as someone has suggested a spanish stallion would be a definite good choice. I'm not keen on modern warmbloods as they always seem to carry the rider so much on the forehand, the spanish breeds tend to have better rider carrying abilities - just my opinion though! How about Icon - partbred spanish or Olhao - Lusitano? Or even friesian - they have spanish blood and are compact, we put our TB's to our stallion Wessel and have got some really good results.
Good luck in finding the right stallion!:D
im a little confused about the comment warmbloods of modern type carry the rider on the forehand..?

[blackhorses]

You look at any modern warmblood doing dressage and the riders weight is predominantly on the forehand unless they are doing very collected paces. If you look at pics of these horses doing dressage draw a straight line down through the riders centre of gravity and the riders weight is on the forehand, they always look like they are going to fall forward and the only thing holding them back is the reins - IMO. You look at classical riders and the horse is using its backend and carrying the riders weight well - as you can see a horses forehand is not exactly designed to carry weight - the only part of it that can absorb shock is the fetlock, whereas the back legs are kind of like ours where they have the fetlock, hocks and stifle joints to flex and absorb shock/weight.
Spanish and iberian horses or those with conformation built along those lines have a better head carriage as well to enable them to bring thier forehand up and thier backend down. Modern dressage horses seem to have a headset toward the TB - a little lower so not quite able to do the same thing - they just look flashy.
But these are my opinions and what I aim for when I breed any horse - compact good conformation and good head carriage. It is down to personal opinion on what a horse should look like - but I always go for one that could carry a rider with the least amount of effort and strain even if it is not the most fashionable at the moment. It seems spanish type horses have been around for a long time so they must have got something right!!!:D

[amandaco]

so you mean the rider is sitting on the forehand?!
modern warmbloods are built for dressage.they are built very uphill(flemmingh is a good example) and have enough scope to collect AND extend.
hence why even though they are a more mordern breed they are firmly established in international competition.
which the iberians are very much lacking