bridle

[xxdebbie_ukxx]

i been thinking about useing a hackmore bridle on my mare shes nearly 3 what you think do they work well?

[Bay Mare]

It depends why you want to use it. Is there a specific reason that you're looking at the hackamore?

Contrary to some people's opinion bits aren't the work of the devil :) They can be kinder in some ways than some bitless bridles depending on the type that you use and the hands that hold the reins.

I quite like the English Hackamore and Saffy goes well in it BUT it can be very severe in the wrong hands and if it's not adjusted correctly.

Personally (and I know that others will disagree) I think that it is preferable that a horse can work both bitted and bitless as it gives you greater scope for the future if, for example, you want to do dressage or you need to sell your horse.

[puzzles]

Ditto Bay Mare - especially for a young horse as if she matures only having been ridden in a hackamore then, should you decide to compete in dressage (are forms of bitless bridles are alllowed?) you may come across a few problems adjusting.
i would try her in both; a bitless bridle, if used sympathetically and carefully, can be a really useful tool in training a young, green experience-gaining horse- go for it fopr a few days/weeks and see how it goes - if she goes betetr in one ratehr than another then this should help you decide.
i personally love english hackamores as they can be really useful, so good luck with your youngster!

[Bay Mare]

should you decide to compete in dressage (are forms of bitless bridles are alllowed?)

No, currently you can't compete in a bitless bridle in dressage. I've not heard of it changing in the near future either which is part of the reason I reintroduced Saffy to a bit.

[Chilli]

I've heard of some dressage competitions that allow bitless bridles, not affiliated or riding club run though and like you say probably not likely to be either.

[xxdebbie_ukxx]

im not planning on doin dressage i just dont want to put abit in her mouth as i feel she has a soft mouth.

[mayoguinness]

Well in the 3 years I've had my arab I've never rode in a bit! I've irond out a whole load of problems and the bit to me is just an unnecerserry item and can often do nothing but torment a horse! However I would recommend you have a bit of knowlage of NH and have done basic groundskills before riding bitted or bitless! (in my opinion its safer to ride bitless). If you do ride in a hackamore I would advise that you have a lesson with a NH instructer to learn the basics so you know what your doing! Just experament and have fun :)

[Crystal Fire]

Can you just clarify what sort of hackamore you mean? I think you probably mean a mechanical one, like an English or German hackamore. In which case you are talking about something completely different to mayoguiness, who uses a rope hackamore. :) I don't think you are going to need NH lessons to ride in a mechanical hackamore, they give a huge amount of control, and as said above, need to be used with care.

[mayoguinness]

Realy? I didn't even realise there were all these other types of hackamore! I thought life was simple without bits but it looks like its just got a whole lot more complicated!lol. Even so, NH is a good way to go. It helps a lot when riding if you you are using NH techniques and gives you a lot of controle!! Especially when riding a young horse ;)

[Crystal Fire]

:D Go look up a site that sells tack and search on hackamore mate!
I started my youngsters bitless in a rope halter, but they do learn to wear a bit as well. Makes them adaptable.

[Lot1983]

As discussed before, bitless briddles are accepted differently by different horses, and differnt ones act on differnt parts of a horses head, poll/nose.

A bitted bridle in the right hands is a million times better than a bitless bridle in the wrong hands...

[puzzles]

i agree - for example a german hackamore looks similiar to an english, but is very strong (well, stronger generally)

[Bay Mare]

the bit to me is just an unnecerserry item and can often do nothing but torment a horse!

I appreciate that you don't like to ride with a bit but please don't make statements about bits which just aren't true. Used correctly in good hands the bit DOES NOT have to torment a horse. Believe me, my mare WOULD NOT tolerate a bit if it were 'tormenting' her. You can be as harsh in a bitless as you can be with a bit if your hands are bad.


A bitted bridle in the right hands is a million times better than a bitless bridle in the wrong hands...

I completely agree :D

[mayoguinness]

Sorry Bay Mare I'm not trying to offend you but all the horses I've seen (which has built up to be quite a few) and that my freinds have seen, there hasn't been one case where the bitted bridle has had anywhere near the effect of a bittless one! Some people swear that without a bit thier horse would be uncontrolable yet I know a person like this and affter 1 NH lesson the horse in being ridden arounnd calmly in a rope headcoller! Its just my opinion but so far in my life I have never seen a case where a bit has been neserserry and the horses of what I have seen tend do dislike them! Some people have tried aboat every bit under the sun but still cant controle thier horse! Personaly I just prefer to see no metal in a horses mouth :) Not that I am saying that what you are doing is wrong! Every person must find there own path!

[Chilli]

The reason a bit was invented was becasue it made it easier to control the horse and speeded up the training process.

You can do anything with a bit or without, it's all down to the skill of the person and time invested, the equipment is irelivant imho.

Personaly i find if you can't control a horse with a bit you've got no chance without, not that you can't without just it's easier with.

[mayoguinness]

Well in my opinion if you cant control a horse without a bit you shouldn't be riding the horse at all! It shouldn't matter how long it takes a horse to be trained without a bit as you need to get his trust and companionship before you ride anyway! I dont think it does take longer training a horse without a bit anyway. If anything I think it seems to be quicker and more enjoyable!! (not that I'm trying to have a go ;) )

[Crystal Fire]

I think you should be careful about making statements like that. Telling people they shouldn't be riding at all unless they can do it bitless, well, it's the sort of thing that puts so many people off natural horsemanship. There are so many people who would benefit from a bit of NH style help, and I'm sure enjoy it, but they get put off by thinking that they will be told off or looked down on because they use a bit, shoes, rugs and stable their horses. We need to win friends and encourage people I think. :)
How a horse is best controlled is really down to how they have been trained, and their current owner may well not be their original trainer. If the horse is used to a bit, can be easily controlled in a bit, then it's not broken so why fix it? Most people just want to ride safely, not work their way through a levels programme or follow a particular approach religiously. So I think the most important thing is that they are confident and safe. If a bit does that for them, and they aren't hurting their horse, then where's the harm?

[Chilli]

Bits, saddles, stirrups, rugs, shoes etc were all invented/developed for very good reasons, whether those reasons are still valid today depends on the individual circumstances i guess.

Does beg the question why anyone uses any tack at all when, given enough time and skill you can ride without anything.

I'm guessing because it's easier to control the horse which makes it safer, who knows :)

[Crystal Fire]

I think if you jump on an unbacked young horse with no tack, it probably takes a bit longer to get out hacking than if you allow yourself some equipment :D

[Chilli]

Didn't some people about 2000 years ago drive horses into rivers and slowly back them and then come out riding them after a few sessions in the river ?

Not the native americans who did it all on one go a bit like rough riding till the horse was worn out in the river.

Or i could be wrong, memory is going :o

[mayoguinness]

I think you should be careful about making statements like that. Telling people they shouldn't be riding at all unless they can do it bitless, well, it's the sort of thing that puts so many people off natural horsemanship. There are so many people who would benefit from a bit of NH style help, and I'm sure enjoy it, but they get put off by thinking that they will be told off or looked down on because they use a bit, shoes, rugs and stable their horses. We need to win friends and encourage people I think. :)
How a horse is best controlled is really down to how they have been trained, and their current owner may well not be their original trainer. If the horse is used to a bit, can be easily controlled in a bit, then it's not broken so why fix it? Most people just want to ride safely, not work their way through a levels programme or follow a particular approach religiously. So I think the most important thing is that they are confident and safe. If a bit does that for them, and they aren't hurting their horse, then where's the harm?

Well I do think it is true! To be honest in my opinion Crystal fire, the only real reason (apart from a few cases) that a horse cant be ridden without a bit is becuase people haven't got the horses full trust and cooperation! If you havn't got that then you've then got to ask yourself should I be riding this horse, is it safe, and is it in my and the horses best interests!:o Some trainers I know go so far as to say that if you cant ride a horse with nothing on its head and back then you shouldn't be on the horse! I'd proberly go along with that if I could train with that particular person but at the moment I'm having to go along with what is the best that I can learn in the uk and what is available!:rolleyes: I dont want to scare people off but then again it is perfectly true in my opinion and plus I am on a NH forum:rolleyes:

[Crystal Fire]

I remember expressing myself in similar terms when I was new to the Natural Horsemanship ideas. The only thing is, it didn't help to bring people round to our way of thinking, it just alienated them. So I got a bit more tactful. You're preaching to the converted with me mate, I start horses "naturally" and ride out bitless (with proper insurance) regularly.
Well in my opinion if you cant control a horse without a bit you shouldn't be riding the horse at all!
The point is, many people don't have any need to find out whether or not they can control their horse bitless. They ride with a bit, they and their horse are happy and safe, they could be great riders and competing successfully. They might enjoy and learn from some aspects of NH training, but if we insult them then they will never find out. We need people like that on our side, not alienated.
I think you are over-simplifying when you say any horse can be ridden bitless if it trusts and co-operates with you. The point is that maybe they can, but if they are relaxed and happy ridden bitted then what's the problem? The fact that they wear a bit doesn't mean the DON'T trust and co-operate with their riders does it? Some older horses are happiest with what they know, I have one that came with severe behaviour problems instead of being put to sleep. He certainly trusts me (he had to trust someone or he'd be dead), but when I re-backed him he didn't relax easily in the rope halter, but was great with a bit. So, having no particular point to prove, I ride him in a bit because it is what he knows and he seems to derive security from that.
Chilli - that river thing sounds really interesting, but COLD! I think I'll pass on that one and allow myself to use the odd bit of rope. :)

[Crystal Fire]

plus I am on a NH forum
p.s. Most NH trainers aim to progress a horse to being ridden with a bit. :D

[puzzles]

heeh :-D

[Chilli]

p.s. Most NH trainers aim to progress a horse to being ridden with a bit. :D

Don't the trainers which start of bitless and progress to bitted then progress on to bitless (Bosal/hackamore)

A lot just start out with a bit don't they ? so they can sell you one just like theres :p

The statement mayoguinness makes suggestes to me people like the Dorrances, Ray Hunt and pretty much everone i can think of in modern NH sholdn't be riding horses or helping people at clinics :confused: i guess it depends on what "full trust and cooperation" means to you and wether you think it can be gained after a session in a round pen or takes years of living with and looking after a horse.

Although in fairness my horse has a DR Cook and won't ever have a bit in his mouth as there is not point, but i do ride my wifes horse's with a bit and without so i have a foot in both camps:)

[Crystal Fire]

A lot of them seem to do the initial backing in a rope halter or similar, then progress to a bridle. When Ray Hunt did his colt starting at the Equine Ethology conference all the horses got bitted and ridden in the bridle within the 3 days. Some of the more traditional western horsemen progress through the stages of bosal then bitted, but they also might take a horse all the way to a curb bit. Not sure where you draw the line between natural and other??? Pat Parelli expects a bitted bridle to be used towards the end of level 2 and definitely in level 3. He will also encourage advanced students to work with a curb and spurs. (Shock horror!). Pat P is a great horseman and most people think of him as introducing NH ideas to a wider audience.
I think the most useful NH teachers take people from where they are and work with that. At the clinics I organise we encourage everyone to come along, and we help them with what they want without forcing them through any process just for the sake of it. So if they are uncomfortable riding without a bit, and neither they or their horse needs to, they can use their bit. If they are using a severe bit then it may be they need some remedial work. They may even discover that they can ride bitless after all, but you need to adapt for the individuals. Because of this I think we've had a lot of people find the value and fun in NH style training who would have shunned clinicians with a more dogmatic approach.
I have several friends who will only ride in their rope hackamores, and good luck to them. But I don't regard them as being anything special. I ride bitted and bitless depending on the circumstances, and I don't think that is particularly special either. But all my horses can be ridden in a bit, because I might get run over by a bus one day...

[Chilli]

Scratch that i got my Californian vaquero training which so many are based on the wrong way round :o

Most clinitians will work with whatever the person has/uses to help them with there problem, but generally they have a type of tack they always use themselves.

John, Josh Lyons always got straight to the bit don't they ?

Appart from Parelli and Silversands (you'll know more bout this than me, don't they mention this is where you'd introduce the bit if your going to use one in there dvd's quite early on ?) most people seem to want to get to the tack which will be used straight away these days, riding with a halter then progressing to a bit as Pareli and copies do seems to be less common.

As you say Hunt and Dorrance (when he was alive) go to the bit very early.

I seem to think that there are a lot of people riding bitless and bridlesless who used the bit to do the intial training of the horse and then moved on to bitless/bridleless like Stacey Westfall ?

Actually i can't remember what, Frank Bell, Dennis Reis, Chris Cox, Craig Cameron, Curt Pate, Ken McNabb, etc etc does so i might be all wrong :o

[mayoguinness]

Jayne Lavender does let people start with a bit if they say that they "have to" use it but she tells them that its for them not the horse and she also puts a rope halter on top! She tells them only to use the rope halter and leave the bit alone and in about an hour flat they are riding round 1 reind in a rope halter! We tend to use bits for us not the horse as we do most things ie.saddles ect. and thats ok by me exept when it either is uncomfortable for the horse or when its not needed! I know pat started things in the way of Natural Horsemanship and I think his ground games are ok but alot of the riden stuff of his I disagree with! Personaly if I've got to ride a horse with a bit, I wont ride at all! Even if the horse prefers to ride in a bit (I've never known a horse to) even the most gentel of bits can cause mouth problems and the dentist we have says riding a horse with a bit completely messes up their mouths!

Different oppinions I guess but Its always good to discuss it no matter if we dont think alike in all ways ;)

[horse__obsessed]

IMO it doesnt matter if the horse is bitted or not so long as its happy

Someone said theres no point in riding in a bit if your horse is happy bitless... no point except being allowed to compete affiliated dressage and a few other disciplines :rolleyes:

Oh and saddle distribute our weight more evenly over the horse... chancer always seems happier and more willing in a saddle ;)

[Crystal Fire]

I'm happier in a saddle too. In the summer when mine are shiny bareback can be like trying to sit on a greasy pole!
Chilli, I think that Silversand introduces a bit sooner than Parelli, but whatever, it all leads to working in he bit. I think Steve from Silversand tends to stick with a snaffle.
Mayoguiness. Some horses definitley prefer a bit, probably because it is what they are used to and they find security in that. When I re-backed my project horse everything was 100% right to go ahead and ride bitless, but as soon as I asked for flexion he got tense and braced. As he was 11 years old and had been ridden in the past, I got my bridle off the fence and put that on. He immediately softened his neck and off we went. Seemed no point on forcing the no-bit issue any further with him.

[mayoguinness]

I'm not saying that riding in a saddle is bad! I ride equally in a saddle as I do bareback! Though I tend to prefer bareback and so does mayo I think as all though he now stands quitely when I do his girth up I always get the feeling he doesn't like it to much! Interesting about your horse and the bit thing, though Its hard for me to be to sure about it having not seen even one horse out of I dont know how many be comfertable in a bit!!:(

[Chilli]

I know i shouldn't but i just can't help myself :rolleyes:

So if the bit is for the rider not the horse, who's the rope halter for ?

[No_Angel]

I think mayoguiness means the bit can be a bit of a safety blanket for the rider. I rode out with a person who said my horse looked so happy bitless and she would love to try it, but she didint trust her horse enough to ride without a bit, which i think is quite sad.
I too cringe when i have to put a bit in a horses mouth when im a uni, they are giving me all the signs that they dont want it and i cant do anything about it:(

[LindaAd]

I think mayoguiness means the bit can be a bit of a safety blanket for the rider. I rode out with a person who said my horse looked so happy bitless and she would love to try it, but she didint trust her horse enough to ride without a bit, which i think is quite sad.
I too cringe when i have to put a bit in a horses mouth when im a uni, they are giving me all the signs that they dont want it and i cant do anything about it:(


I think maybe mayoguinness has some heavy-handed friends!

There's a very interesting thread in the General forum, started by Chev, about bits and why people use them. It seems that bits are only partly about control - mainly, like everything else, they are about communication. A couple of people also pointed out, very wisely, that everything we do with horses is about control, whether it's bits, bridles, headcollars or voice. And they all need co-ooperation from the horse: if a bit is painful, the horse will do it's best to run away from it, and you'll have no control at all.

If a horse objects to a bit, then either that bit is wrong for that horse and it's uncomfortable, or there's something wrong in its mouth, or it's objecting to work for some other reason - a badly-fitting saddle, pain, whatever.

[Crystal Fire]

Interesting about your horse and the bit thing, though Its hard for me to be to sure about it having not seen even one horse out of I dont know how many be comfertable in a bit!!

Bless your socks! You're young yet, I'm ancient - maybe by the time you're as old as me you'll have found one. :D

[Chilli]

:o Crystal Fire, i don't suppose you know if the horse Steve Halfpenny rides tackless on the Basic Skills? Silversand Tapes went through his normal training process through to bited riding before it started tackless riding, or if it's training didn't have a stage with a bit ?

If it did involve a stage of training with a bit it would be interesting to know if this was just becasue he put the horse through his normal training practices before taking it further onto tackless riding or if working with the bit was a planned/usefull step to tackless riding.

Edited, not on the Basic tape but be on the Advanced one but i can't find it at the moment

[Crystal Fire]

Do you mean Foxy the appy? If so he was backed by Steve and being ridden as a reining horse before he got into all the NH PNH stuff, so I guess he was ridden bitless later.
You can email him about tackless riding if you like, just give him a little while to reply. It's steve@silversand.com.au - I'm guessing he would say it depends what your goals are. When he starts young horses normally they are being started to be riding horses, so the bridle is introduced as part of their basic backing and riding on process. Then you might choose to go into fancy stuff like liberty and brideless riding if you wanted to. But if you wanted to ride bitless then tackless, I don't think it would make any difference if you had ridden with a bit first.

[mayoguinness]

I think maybe mayoguinness has some heavy-handed friends!

There's a very interesting thread in the General forum, started by Chev, about bits and why people use them. It seems that bits are only partly about control - mainly, like everything else, they are about communication. A couple of people also pointed out, very wisely, that everything we do with horses is about control, whether it's bits, bridles, headcollars or voice. And they all need co-ooperation from the horse: if a bit is painful, the horse will do it's best to run away from it, and you'll have no control at all.

If a horse objects to a bit, then either that bit is wrong for that horse and it's uncomfortable, or there's something wrong in its mouth, or it's objecting to work for some other reason - a badly-fitting saddle, pain, whatever.

A horse can't run away from a bit! It can do it's best to show you that It's not happy with it but most of the time we ignore what the horse is saying and put it down to them being difficult or that they've just got to learn to except it!

I agree. A headcoller or line is to controling a horse but I dont think its the same as shoving a metel bar in its mouth and tugging on it! If I knew what I was doing and had enouth experience I would wish not to use a headcoller or a saddle or any sort of equipment but my hands and my heart to be with my horse! At the moment I'm feeling my way with it as best I can but one day I hope to go and learn from the people who need nothing to "controle their horse" as they are freinds and parteners so they live in union and understanding instead of a batal of what is right ands wrong and what controle they have over one anouther! They are just freinds that understand each other and who they are and what they are here to do together. That is what I want to be like and I shall work at that for as long as it takes :)

[coss]

im not planning on doin dressage i just dont want to put abit in her mouth as i feel she has a soft mouth.

Just because your horse has a soft mouth it doesn't mean you have to go bitless. you may not want to do dressage now but if you did in the future it would be worth her knowing about a bit. I ride my mare in a happy mouth roller bit with loose rings. It couldn't be mch softer and she's happy in it. I used to ride her in a hackamore as did the previous owner. It can be very severe (depending on the type and the rider's hands). My mare is very off the leg for steering as well as speed so the hackamore confirmed aids but she would sometimes resist it like anything else.
I would try her in a "soft bit" as she might find that nicer than the nose pressure and poll pressure.
I am aware of combination bits by myler. There are many things out there that claim to be soft but they are only as soft as the hands.

[puzzles]

horses have very sansative mouths, but many people bypass the fact that they also have other sensative areas of the face that all types of bit work on - including:
the poll
nose
bars of the mouth
tongue
chin
cheeks

[mayoguinness]

Very true! I try to use the least amount of pressure I can on the head and face! Thats why I love liberty work :)