Not another treeless saddle thread

[Waikato Valuta]

I have been eying off a treeless saddle for some time. I really want to get one and am just waiting for the finances to build up.

anyway, I often check out discussion about different types and this was what I found on one site, do you think there is any truth to this?:

Off and on over a five year period I worked as an expert witness for a law
firm that handled a case pertaining to a treeless saddle. I worked for the
plaintiff, as I think they had a valid complaint. In the process, I gave 2
depositions, one of which was videotaped just days before 9/11.

Here's some of the things I stressed in my deposition:
1. A "treeless" saddle is not a "treeless" saddle, rather it is a saddle pad
with a cantle and pommel arch...or more specifically a "barless" saddle..one
that has no lenghtwise bars to connect the front and back.
2. I'm certain this idea was tried somewhere in the past history of humans
using horses for transportation and military purposes. The idea didn't work and
was quitely discarded without historians taking note.
3. Without bars running the length of the longissimus dorsi muscles on the
horse's back, there is no way to distribute a heavy load (rider) over the
horse's back.
4. A rider sits on his(her) ischia when mounted. The ischia (ischium,
singular) essentially bear the entire rider's weight on two small bones in the bottom
of the pelvic region.
5. It is not a good idea to have two small pointy bones pressing 150+ lbs of
weight into the muscles of the horse's back.
6. Thus, acting like skiis, the bars of the saddle allow this weight to be
distributed over the the entire length of the horse's back instead of in a very
small area.
7. Horses get sore backs because of:
a). uneven pressure on their muscles from an outside source (saddles)
b). sudden and sustained exertion for which they are not in shape to handle
the muscular effort the activity demands
8. Any horse body worker will tell you the reason for their existance is
mostly beause of ill-fitted saddlery.
9. This law case fell under the New Jersey consumer protection law (it was
filed there) as the manufacturer did not address the differences for which this
product could reasonably be expected to perform. The consumer was not notified
of the differences in this sadde vs. a regular treed saddle and hence was
likely to mis-use it or not understand it.

My personal opinion? Do not re-invent the wheel! If saddles with trees were a
bad idea, human kind would not have used them for nearly 2,000 years with
success. Saddles have been field tested more extensively than most products we'll
ever encounter in a lifetime. That's why traditions become traditions: they
function efficiently and the design has been honed over centuries of use.

As to reparing these beasties, they are nearly in the category of being a
throw-away saddle. Many of the straps are nylon with split leather covering. The
entire "saddle" is a glorified saddle pad that can be folded in half.

This is an item I would not work on because of the legal ramifications and
the fact that most are made from a variety of materials that many saddle shops
do not have on hand. If consumers buy these things, they should be apprised of
what they're buying. They should also be told that repairs may not be able to
be done in many saddle shops.

I would like to think that these "saddles" will someday be taken off the
market as they can be very injurious to a horse's back. When a horse's back hurts,
he may display all kinds of abberant behaviors to get alleviate the pain. In
the particular case I worked on, the saddle did cause the horse to react
violently so as to severely injure the rider.

Oh yes, the plantiff prevailed in this case.

Taken from: http://www.iilg.org/lkb/articles/faq576.html

[Crystal Fire]

As it says, it's a personal opinion. Any saddle can make a horse sore, if it doesn't fit either the horse or the rider properly. For every case of a treeless saddle causing problems, there are many, many more where treed saddles have done the same.
I think treeless saddles are no different to treed in that they should be fitted properly, and then the owner should keep in touch with what is going on with their horse so that they can spot problems early. I saw photos of massive muscle wastage and white hair patches on a horse, alleged to be caused by a treeless saddle. My first thought was why did the owner let it get that bad?
In treeless I would look for one of the more modern models, where the makers can tell you how they distribut the riders weight to help the horse. I'm quite keen on those that use memory foam, either in the saddle or in their saddle pads.

[old_woman]

I'll take at least some of the points one by one:

1.Not true. Many treeless saddles do not have solid front and rear arches. Some do. SBS, Ansur, Freeform do not. Fhoenix does not have a front arch. There are doubtless many others which do not have solid parts. I don't think the Rebecca or the Sensation have "hard" parts and I have seen Icelandic treeless without any solid pommel or cantle forms.
2.I presume the person making this deposition has never heard of the Buteri, the traditional cowboys of the Maremma, who have been riding in treeless saddles since their history has been recorded. There are others in history, too.
3. Of course there are. Firm pads of different materials do this, as do the newer "space age" materials in use in many modern saddles - or does the person making the deposition think that the narrow bars of the typical English saddle tree are the only part of the saddle that carries weight? Of course not; weight is distributed by the panels which are much much wider than the bars.
4. If, in that area, we were skin and bone, that may be so. Most riders have some padding there LOL!
5. If two pointy things really WERE pressing 150lbs plus into the horses back, why do we not see horses ridden bareback with holes in their flesh?
6.??? ... ok ...
7. Exactly. From ill-fitting saddles. Ill-fitting TREED saddles in general, over the past century at least
8.And THAT is mainly (at least in the UK ) because of the lack of skill of so-called saddle-fitters, not to forget the ignorance and/or tight-fistedness and/or poverty of the horse-owner regarding the regular checking of the fit of the TREED saddle.
9.Agreed. But perhaps the customer shouldn't be buying saddles if they don't know anything about them ... reminds me of the Chinese family who tried to sue the Ferrari dealer in New Zealand who sold their son a new Ferrari. The young man had turned up with money and a full NZ driving licence; he had an insurance cover-note in his hand. He paid for the car and drove away. Half an hour later he was dead, wrapped around a lamp-post.

The person who made this deposition is clearly only aware of the very cheapest quality of treeless saddle - those made in third-world countries out of inferior materials and with sub-standard workmanship - and the remarks made about those saddles could be, and indeed should be, made about any item of horse tack made from such materials.

There are a great many makers of treeless saddles who have contractors/manufacturers of the highest reputation, and who offer superb quality control and advice services.

As far as the "reinventing the wheel" statement, I take it that the person making the deposition has never used the horseless carriage or taken any advantage of any form of progress since the year 1912?

While I agree that sometimes "treeless" can seem to be a fad going to ridiculous extremes, it has to be remembered that the treeless saddle has, contrary to the statement, been in existence and constant use since time immemorial. All that has happened is that the use of modern materials has changed their appeal, the use of modern technology has compared them against treed saddles, and the advent of leisure riders has resulted in a demand for comfort and ease of handling.

I have three saddles I use on my mare. One swivel-tree, one conventional VSD and one high-quality treeless. The VSD is used at shows and the like; the swivel-tree sometimes by me for long rides and always when a rider over about 14stone or who may be unbalanced will ride her (my OH!!!), and the treeless usually when I am riding her, or when my latest grandchild is "riding" her. Both swivel-tree and treeless are fitted in a VERY different way to my conventional Albion, and require the appropriate knowledge (easily gained) to do so. I, my OH or one of my daughters ride for 4hrs plus over the hills on her at least twice a week. ALL my saddles are http://www.cosgan.de/images/more/bigs/c014.gif

[entreat]

Well said!

I wouldn't have a bar of that discussion. I all depends on what saddle you're going for. Cheaper anything (saddles or not) will have bigger issues (usually). You can get treeless saddles in Australia for as little as $400AUD (the goodwoods ones sold on ebay), and Status have just mass-produced their own (that look very sporty!), but are just the same as the goodwoods, at $500aud.

I'm getting a Barefoot Cheyenne for $1000aud (about the next cheapest) including a physio pad.

What are you looking at WV? (you can email me so we don't detract from the thread)

[Crystal Fire]

I am fascinated by something in your post old_woman. I visited my friend in Italy who has ridden with the Buteri. I was under the impression that their saddles were treed, it looked that way when she showed me one. Anyway, she went on the Transhumace (sp?) where the mares and foals are brought down from the mountain, and rode in her Torsion saddle. Her horse developed sores (in the usual place - under the stirrup bars). The buteri told her off and I thought it was because they felt that a saddle needed a tree... but I can't check this with her. She rode the rest of the trek in one of there saddles.
It seems to me that this court case revolved not so much about the damage caused by the treeless saddle, but about the fact that the seller hadn't explained the possible limitations of their saddle to the purchaser.
Guess this "expert witness" will be a saddler - his livelihood could be threatened by treeless saddles!

[old_woman]

All I can pass on is what I know from Italian friends, from what I have read, and from what I have seen and handled ...

There are two saddles in use by the Butteri. The Bardella is the treeless saddle; the Scafarda is a swivel-treed saddle.

The Bardella has two large, firmly-stuffed (with specific, shaped layers of straw, hair and fleece) "pillows" ( for want of a better word) which are joined along the "middle" ( or horse's spine) by a flat band a couple of inches wide. This flat band will become a gullet. A shaped plate (imagine a saucer or plate with a bite cut out of it) is attached towards the BACK of these "pillows" on the side AWAY from the horse, angling backwards and a similar "plate" on the front, upright or angled slightly forwards. These two plates or arches - traditionally made out of rigid leather, reinforced with metal or wood - actually serve to hold the "pillows" in place, which forms a gullet and they also help make a secure, shaped seat for the rider. That is the basis of the saddle. Then plain saddlery leather for strength and wearability, and tooled leather for decoration, is used to cover the saddle, and make the skirts, seat, etc etc. so the saddle is as treeless as any of the modern saddles which have pommel or cantle "forms". AFAIK the stirrups are attached to, or hang over, the solid piece of hide which is the first layer over the "pillows and plates" and which is the base of the seat. I will see if I can find any pics of the insides or of its construction, anywhere.

The Scafarda is a swivel-treed saddle, a modern Maremmanese version of a military saddle. Its articulation is generally aluminium, which makes it lighter-weight than traditional British or German swivel-treed saddles. To make up for that, however, it has large, padded panels and is often decorated and further padded for the comfort and security of the rider.

The Scafarda is the saddle generally preferred nowadays, as like almost all military saddles it is simpler, quicker and cheaper to repair than traditional saddles, rarely requiring the specialist skill of the saddler.

This site: http://www.butteri-altamaremma.com/italiano/buttero.htm
will tell you about the different saddles and the Butteri themselves (if you read Italian). It is the "official" site of the Associazione Butteri d'Alta Maremma, and describes the Bardella as having "scarcely any tree - merely a small semi-circle of wood as a 'frontal'".

I have an idea that the "secret" of the Bardella lies/lay in the specialised packing of the "pillows" with their specific layers and their firmness combined with their flexibility, and their downfall is in this packing, too, which like any organic material will break down sooner rather than later. When this happens, then it may well prove better to find a solution other than hard-to-find, fallible and expensive human skills - ie the Scafarda.

HTH!