Grey dun vs grey

[Zingy]

What's the difference? B is classed as a grey dun (he's also been described as a silver dun - is that the same thing?). He's actually quite roan in colour as his coat is a mix of white, black and brown hairs with a darker dorsal stripe. Mane and tail are the slightly darker than his coat, though still a white/ black/ brown mix. Head is grey (mix of black and white hair but no brown), and legs are dark grey.

Is it the legs that class him as a dun? :confused:

[Mehitabel]

greys are born dark (black, or chestnut, or bay etc) and gradually go lighter until they're white. silver/grey duns stay te same colour. is he fading? greys can look very odd while they are greying out, so can be misidentified.

[Zingy]

He's not faded in the last couple of months :D Though it could just be mud.....

I've had differing opinions on him - he's registered as a grey dun, so I can only assume that was from his colour at birth. When I got him, I was told he'd go grey by the person I bought him from. A second opinion from someone else is that he is definitely a dun and so won't change colour, at least until he is considerably older, (like in another 10 years or so), but even that is unlikely.

Sire and dam are both true greys (not grey dun). 2 full sisters are both yellow duns, so I've no idea on the genetics of that or what's likely for him!

[Mehitabel]

how old is he? you can have a dun and have him go grey - grey can sit on top of any colour and affect it. presumably his previous owner has seen him fade, if s/he was certain he'd grey out. so he might have started out grey dun and be greying out.

[Zingy]

He's coming up 4. Last owner only had him about 6 months - I think she was going more off what she expected from similar coloured horses than from him specifically, as in older photos of him there's no noticable difference in colour.

So, if he can go lighter as a grey would, what makes him dun? Why isn't he just described as a grey?

[Shadowlark]

By Grey dun do you mean Gruello or however it's spelt?

A true dun would have black points, dorsal stripe and barring on the legs.. as the dun gene dilutes the body colour but doesn't affect the "point" colours.

[varkie]

Because grey isn't actually a colour - it is something that happens to a colour. So grey horses are actually other coloured horses that have lost their colour as they go grey. I had a horse who was described as a 'rose' grey - she had been born as a dark brown/black filly (once her foal coat moulted out), and as she went grey, she took on a pink ish colour - hence being registered as a rose grey. So she would have been more properly described as being a dark brown/black horse who had the greying gene. Your horse therefore is genetically dun (assuming it is a dun) with the greying gene (assuming it is losing colour).

[Mehitabel]

He's coming up 4. Last owner only had him about 6 months - I think she was going more off what she expected from similar coloured horses than from him specifically, as in older photos of him there's no noticable difference in colour.

So, if he can go lighter as a grey would, what makes him dun? Why isn't he just described as a grey?


ah, ok. he could quite easily be described as just grey, but if they weren't sure at registration it's better to err on the side of not-grey. petal's passport says 'brown - may go grey' on it. so he might be visibly dun now, just like she was brown as a youngster, but be genetically grey.

[varkie]

By Grey dun do you mean Gruello or however it's spelt?

A true dun would have black points, dorsal stripe and barring on the legs.. as the dun gene dilutes the body colour but doesn't affect the "point" colours.

While a grullo/grulla would have black points, as do other shades of dun, a dun does not HAVE to have black points. If you look at my website, Varkies Stud (http://www.varkiesstud.co.uk) , I have two 'cream' dun mares - 'cream dun' is the term used in shetlands, but it is very inaccurate - they are actually diluted chestnut duns. They do not have black points, and nor do the proper 'red' (chestnut) duns I've seen. However browns/bays/blues do have black points generally. The 'cream' & 'red' duns do however have darker points, as you mention.

[Shadowlark]

My apologies - I meant to say darker points - not Black points :)

[Zingy]

By Grey dun do you mean Gruello or however it's spelt?

A true dun would have black points, dorsal stripe and barring on the legs.. as the dun gene dilutes the body colour but doesn't affect the "point" colours.


Don't know about Gruello - never heard of that. Presumably his dun registration was therefore working off his dark legs and dorsal stripe and it remains to be seen what he actually ends up as! If he doesn't have a grey gene he'll stay the same, if he does then he'll lighten - correct?

I don't have any objection to him going lighter (though his current colouring does hide more dirt and I'd appreciate him keeping it from that point of view if nothing else) :o

[Mehitabel]

Presumably his dun registration was therefore working off his dark legs and dorsal stripe and it remains to be seen what he actually ends up as! If he doesn't have a grey gene he'll stay the same, if he does then he'll lighten - correct?


yes, that's about he size of it. with 2 grey parents it is i think 75% chance - if the same combo has had non-greying foals then neither are homozygous for grey, so you do have a chance of him not greying out.

[Shadowlark]

Grulla (checked the spelling now :D) is the Dun factor working on black... looks like this in varrying shades of course.

http://www.ultimatehorsesite.com/images_colors/grulla5.jpg

[chev]

Duns that also carry grey will usually follow the same greying pattern as non-duns; ie, when born, they are usually 'adult' colour rather than 'baby' colour, and sometimes show spectacles of grey.

A bay foal that has grey will usually be born with black points rather than fawny-coloured points. Bays that will stay bay usually have pale fawn points, and then shed out to black later. A bay dun foal that also has grey would have those near-black points; a bay dun foal with no grey would have pale points. So it's more than likely that he's shown early signs of greying out such as those, hence the colour on his papers.

If B has brown/black/white hair in his body colour, he's odds on bay dun going grey. A dun won't have the white hair; just a diluted version of the base colour. The dun has probably diluted his legs to dark grey (the grey gene often leaves black pigment in the points for quite a while) but dun doesn't dilute the head generally; the grey colour there is the grey.

He will probably end up white; but he'll hang onto the points and the dorsal stripe for longer than non-dun greys.

We do need pics though.... :D :D

[chev]

Just to add; greys don't fade gradually through the year; what usually happens is that with every coat change (so generally summer and winter) the coat becomes noticeably lighter. So you might not see a difference until spring, when he sheds out. Also, horses grey out at different rates; some (like may) are completely white very early on. May was 6 when we bought her, and absolutely white even then. Gelfy hung onto his colour for much longer; he's only now really looking white, and he's in his early teens more or less. Some horses don't go really pale until their mid teens.

[varkie]

Shadowlark has shown a pic of a grulla - we also have two which you can see on our stud website - a two year old colt, and a weanling filly.