How long does it take you to get the outline?

[alwaysfallingof]

How long, each schooling session, does it take for you to get your pony to soften.

Max has been working round for a while now, but each time it takes me at least 25 minutes to get him. I've tried various ways, and this is what works best:

- walk him round actively on a long rein, doing lots of bending and turning so that he stretches down and starts stepping through.

-sloooowly start to shorten my reins, at the same time as I work on transitions, usually with a long swinging trot somewhere to get him to loosen through and think a bit more forwards.

-wind him up a little (he takes a bit of persuasion before he comes straight off my leg) so we do trot - halt - trot transitions, and a good few trot, canter, trot, canter.

by this time, he's completely soft on a long rein, and is stepping through and haslifted his back, but hasn't relaxed his jaw on a shorter rein. A few more walk circles, serpentines and bending, and I have him.

Now, sorry, the point of this post - I was expecting this time to decrease the more his muscles built up, but it hasn't. If he's had a couple of days off, then we generally get it quicker...but even so! Once I have the outline, he keeps it in w/t/c, and I can tell when he's getting tired, and let him have regular stretches.

Anyone else with this problem?:o

[cvb]

mmm - if you don't ask, you don't get ;)

Last year I had an RI at our place, but it turned out my mare was unsound again. So she got turned out and I caught mum's long-suffering fell pony up (Dudley).

Cos he doesn't get ridden as often as the rest, I started riding him on a long rein. RI asked me why - as I was effectively allowing him to be crooked and to warm up properly he needs to be straight :o

So perhaps you need to start "crunching" your 25 minute warm up (which is effectively what it is) into less time and *asking* him to do things sooner.

My mare (the one who was unsound - has DJD in her hock) gets lunged briefly on both reins before I get on in w/t/c so I can see if she is sound or not. Then I get on and start work. But I want her to be soft and active from the start (and straight) or she won't do her joints any good. To be honest *I* need more warm up time.

She doesn't get asked for collection straight away - but she is expected to be between hand and leg (she is also spooky at times).

OK, so the work level is less at the start - we start in walk, do transitions and turns there before asking for trot, and warm up (soft, accepting the aids etc) in trot before asking for canter - but at the moment she gets around 30 mins work and is doing leg yield and canter work by the end of that... soft.

i.e. I ask for softness right from the start - but I start asking for softness in the easy stuff and progress to asking for softness in the harder stuff. But it is ALL supposed to be soft, and if its not, we work on that (often me rather than her) straight away til we get it.

[Pink's lady]

A couple of minutes in Pink offeres it herself in walk. it takes more work and suppling to get it in trot.

I never need to 'ask' specifically. I do a lot of lateral work with Pink - turn on the forehand, side pass, half-pass, leg yealing, shoulder in, turn on the haunches and once she's bending correctly she drops into a correct outline all by herself, on rein contact requires, other than is needed to acheive the correct bend. In trot it takes much longer because she doesn't bend as well in trot.

[Nik-n-Kia]

It usually take me about 15 mins to get kia soft enough to round over and go on the bit.

Even when we are schooling everyweek it takes me atleast that long. It shouldn't be immediate as then it isn't a true outline.

I find it fun that I have to work for it feels all the more satisfying when I know he is soft and responsive to me.

Happy schooling!!!

Nikki xxxx:p

[Luv 2 Trot]

Well, considering i have a youngster, and im learning a lot of this myself because Toby was too difficult and despised dressage, it takes a while for both of us to get it. I normally have to warm Carnegie up on a loose rein at walk, then i gather up and make him come round. He does it fine at the walk, but the trot it takes a while, and we only get a few steps of a good outline here and there. Normally after a little stretchy trot, he is a lot looser and easy to get round.

[iloveshearer]

...

[Skyhuntress]

Even when we are schooling everyweek it takes me atleast that long. It shouldn't be immediate as then it isn't a true outline.
That's not true at all. If you've ever ridden a well schooled horse, they will amost immediately lower their heads, be relazed you'll get the impulsion going right from the very get go (assuming you ride half decently), and most will easily give you an outline within the first couple of minutes, probably long and low if you want to stretch the horse. No resistance because it's an ingrained habit. An outline doesn't necessarily mean collection, it means that the horse is able to carry himself and has some thrust from behind.

CVB really summed it up right here: She doesn't get asked for collection straight away - but she is expected to be between hand and leg (she is also spooky at times).
That's the key. I don't care how green the horse is, if they've never been ridden dressage before, or whatever-the horse only has to listen to me for one hour out of the day. I EXPECT the horse to be between my aids and willing to listen...You shouldn't have to to walk 5-6 times around the arena before you get the horse listening to your aids. When you use your leg, there should be instant action. When you give a half halt, you should feel a response instantly-those are the main aids for getting a horse on the bit, and if you can't get the horse responding to that right away, it'll be a huge battle later on. It should be instantaneous-if not, we have a bit of an argument until the horse gives and is willing to listen and try...and I find that's where many riders run into problems, because they don't ask for the horse to immediately start listening and responding from the very get go, and instead wonder around the arena trying to think about why the horse takes so long to come into an outline.

It DOES take a while for a horse to actively be able to carry themselves for your entire ride, so don't get frustrated. But there is absolutely no reson why you cannot expect a couple of steps from the very get go; even if it's a few and then he goes back to looking like a giraffe. But you have to ask. If you ask for it from the very start, eventually you'll find that the horse quickly becomes quicker and more adept at going on the bit. it's rewarding the day you realize that the horse is actually carrying HIMSELF instead of leaning on you, even from the very star

It sounds like you're on the right tract. The key is to keep on asking for movement and impulsion from behind while catching it in your contact.

[Lgd]

I walk on a loose rein for 15 minutes - scientific reason behind that, as research has shown that this is how long it takes for the muscles to warm through sufficiently to commence work without risking injury. One of the reasons many busy yards have a horsewalker and put the horse on for 15 - 20 mins before riding.

After that the contact is picked up and the girls will go into an outline immediately - working frame only at this point and it will take at least 15 minutes to get them ready to really work - through, relaxed physically and mentally. I should add that both of mine are well-established dressage horses working at a high level, so I would be pretty peeved if they didn't!

[coss]

it depends on each inidividual horse on how quickly they will accept the aids...
My gelding by the end of the summer carries himself as soon as i pick up the contact, no collection but he's between my legs and will walk loosely but with a contact. to loosen him up i do circles, spirals, turn on the forehand and turn on the haunches. In the late autumn beginning of winter i turn him away as he needs consistent work and if the ground won't allow that we gets bucking and bolting and stress. He is brought back to work in early spring with lots of lunging to build up fitness and the rest of the work is brought in gradually but every year he picks up the aids quicker again. As soon as i'm on he has to think "work" and not be too independent (not listening)
My mare needs a good 10mins in walk. i started schooling her a couple of years ago and she will be 30 later this year so for her its a completely different way of going and she's a tense little mare. i again do lots of circles etc to get her to soften through the movements and accept the aids so that she is softer when i move to trot. canter is still a work in progress.
I often ride a warmblood who is well schooled and when you get on he caries himself, no restricitions and he's loose but he holds himself up. you can put him long and low but he can have a contact.
I would definitely try asking more sooner and see the reaction, concentrate on doing suppling exercises and lateral work such as shoulder in/out, haunches in/out as this naturally collects the horse and engages the back end so the horse softens. do lots of flexing on a circle until in the horse's head its "ok".

[alwaysfallingof]

Hmmm...I've been wondering how to reply to this all day, I've got so many things running round in my head, and I don't know what to put down.

First of all, if I try to do anything quicker, he resists and it takes me twice as long today I thought I'd expect a bit more of him, and it was 40 minutes:eek: and that is just ridiculous (although we did have diggers and builders rattling right next to the school)

As soon as I get on, he's soft on a very long rein. It's when I try to pick him up slightly that he sets his jaw. And my contact is as soft as I can possibly make it, I have a lighter contact with him that with any of the other ones I school regularly. Anything stronger and he backs off and overbends. As it is, once I get him he's very close to self carriage already, because I only have the lightest contact and he holds himself up and carries me forwards:) he's a clever boy!

Really, I think it's his jaw that's the problem. His neck is exactly where I want it, and he's stretching down after about 10 minutes. But the thing that takes the time is to convince him to relax his jaw.

LGD - I think I'm a few million lightyears behind what you and Peri are doing!

[alwaysfallingof]

Another thought - CVB - "asking" for softness? or is it relaxation? maybe a combination of relaxation and obedience - think I've missed a discussion or two somewhere!

I don't consciously ask for either. I'm sure you're not referring to hand wiggling or fiddling - soft hands have got to create a soft horse, surely? I ask for things like bend, and that he should be tracking up, and softness just kind of happens after a while. I can feel him getting gradually closer to where I want him to be. Surely if you try to force softness too quickly, it will only turn into resistence. (Don't really understand the school of thought that says take up a contact and force your pony into it!)

If you have two minutes to explain your take on "asking for softness" that would be appreciated:)

[cvb]

First of all, if I try to do anything quicker, he resists and it takes me twice as long today I thought I'd expect a bit more of him
well you have had quite a nice cosy equilibrium going where he hasn't been asked too much...;)

I kind of went through a phase like this with Fi. I was asking a certain amount, and then was so chuffed we got that... and then when I asked for a bit more either she did it, and I was so pleased I rewarded by releasing back to where we were :rolleyes: OR she said "oo mum that's tough" so I gave her a bit back :rolleyes: So either way we ended back up at our "cosy spot" and not actually moving on at all :o

When I started asking properly, she did try the "oo mum that's tough" reaction and I had to say "sure, but I'd really like you to try for a step"... "now two steps"... "now three steps"... got a few objections - some of which were about my not asking as well as I should, but others of which were her saying "but I LIKED our cosy spot !!"

The better (and more "Polite") I am about asking, the more she offers :)

Another thought - CVB - "asking" for softness? or is it relaxation? maybe a combination of relaxation and obedience - think I've missed a discussion or two somewhere!

I don't consciously ask for either. I'm sure you're not referring to hand wiggling or fiddling - soft hands have got to create a soft horse, surely? I ask for things like bend, and that he should be tracking up, and softness just kind of happens after a while. I can feel him getting gradually closer to where I want him to be. Surely if you try to force softness too quickly, it will only turn into resistence. (Don't really understand the school of thought that says take up a contact and force your pony into it!)

If you have two minutes to explain your take on "asking for softness" that would be appreciated:)

definately not hand wiggling or fiddling :eek: Mark Rashid uses the idea of that game you play where someone is looking for something and you say "warmer" or "colder" depending on how close they are....

He also uses the idea of asking for a certain number of steps only (starting with 3 or you get bobbing of head etc). And then release to let them know they got it right. This is an *amazing* exercise as the horse gets it really quickly once they cotton on, but it is also a great rider exercise as well :D

I still struggle with the words about how to ask for softness tho... because what I want to say is that you ask for softness by offering it. If you are tight, hard, braced - that is not going to ask the horse for softness, it is going to get tight, tense, braced as a response.

Of course it is not quite that simple as normally there is a brace in you or the horse at the start that needs to be worked out.

Its not really "relaxation" so much as "a lack of braces". Relaxed to me has a droopy feel to it :p

And yes there is something about obedience, but I'd rather call it "acceptance of the aids" ? It still allows the horse some self-expression, but they are accepting what you ask for.

arg - "feel" is so much harder to explain than a "how to" !

[alwaysfallingof]

well you have had quite a nice cosy equilibrium going where he hasn't been asked too much...;)


Yes, I guess so. Part of my thinking is that he's 13 this year, and hasn't been worked consistently if at all like this (through my fault as much as anyone elses) for at least 4 years. So when I get a consistent outline, I'm thrilled!

definately not hand wiggling or fiddling Didn't think so!! Just thought I'd clarify!



because what I want to say is that you ask for softness by offering it. If you are tight, hard, braced - that is not going to ask the horse for softness, it is going to get tight, tense, braced as a response.

Yes!! This is kinda the theory I've been playing with. But, we get into a situation where I soften, then he relaxes his jaw and flexes his poll, but then I can stay exactly the same and we lose it again. I then have to go another stage further, and soften even more, and sometimes he responds. We can go on like this for quite a while...where it always seems like he's softening on his terms...not mine!! sometimes it is me trying desperately hard to imagine I have threads of cotton for reins, and keeping spongy elbows and a soft seat...and he just sets his jaw and leans on me!

My instructor's response is that I should shorten my reins right up, sit down into him and not relax until he does - so he softens, then I do. He seems to be happier the opposite way around, but we do get into a bit of a funny cycle sometimes!


Mind you, I guess that he has quite a lot of pre-conditioned "bracing" - he finds going straight very difficult, and likes to hang on my left rein if I give him half a chance! He can be quite resistent to going off my leg at times as well, but all of this is getting much better!

Sorry for the essay!

[jenren!!]

I STILL get confused by this theory. Aramis always took a while to 'warm up' as well.

The question is, HOW do you get the softness, HOW do you ask? I always find it so, so difficult hence why i went wrong with Aramis.

[Herbie's mummy]

How long, each schooling session, does it take for you to get your pony to soften.

He goes into an outline more or less stright away, getting him to supple takes about 10 mins to get him really bendy and getting him to relax.....well my pony does not know what tense means LOL haha

walk him round actively on a long rein, doing lots of bending and turning so that he stretches down and starts stepping through

This really worked for me, when i said striight away i mean after i have walked and trotted with his nose on the floor lol! keep at it and it should help, honest.:)

sloooowly start to shorten my reins, at the same time as I work on transitions, usually with a long swinging trot somewhere to get him to loosen through and think a bit more forwards.

Worked with another horse i helped with but not with mine....not sure why he just did not like it?:(

wind him up a little (he takes a bit of persuasion before he comes straight off my leg) so we do trot - halt - trot transitions, and a good few trot, canter, trot, canter.

Nah my pony just starts to rush if i get him wond up, not that he will get wond up easily. Do transitions but make them relaxed and stedy:)

by this time, he's completely soft on a long rein, and is stepping through and haslifted his back, but hasn't relaxed his jaw on a shorter rein. A few more walk circles, serpentines and bending, and I have him

Just keep doing what you are doing, if it takes time then thats fine, at least he will do it:) over time it will take less to get him into a true outline but now patience is the main thing *it seems as though you have alot of it!*
I have proberly not helped-but thought i would throw my thoughts in as well :)

[cvb]

Yes!! This is kinda the theory I've been playing with. But, we get into a situation where I soften, then he relaxes his jaw and flexes his poll, but then I can stay exactly the same and we lose it again. I then have to go another stage further, and soften even more, and sometimes he responds. We can go on like this for quite a while...where it always seems like he's softening on his terms...not mine!! sometimes it is me trying desperately hard to imagine I have threads of cotton for reins, and keeping spongy elbows and a soft seat...and he just sets his jaw and leans on me!


I think this is where Mark Rashid's step counting exercise is like a magic wand :D

You basically maintain the ask until you get 3 steps in a row of softness and you release *only* on that third step...

so it may be

ask..ask...ask..ask.. soft..ask..soft..soft...ask...ask..soft...ask...soft...soft..soft-RELEASE

and then you let the release happen for as long as it took you to get the 3 soft steps, before you ask again.

In this case there is a clear difference in the contact between ask and release. It makes it very very obvious to the horse ;)

One of the things Mark says about horses is that when you do something, they don't know it is going to stop sometime so you have to let them know that. He applies this to mounting - so the first time he gets on a horse the next thing he does is get right off ! And with canter - so when you get canter you don't just keep going you ask for trot ;) and probably other things as well :p

The question is, HOW do you get the softness, HOW do you ask? I always find it so, so difficult hence why i went wrong with Aramis.

Jen - its one of those things I could demo to you more easily then describe. went to watch a Peggy Cummings clinic and we ended up doing rider exercises. She had us in pairs holding reins between us and you take turns to be rider and horse. You can change the *feel* in the rein without it really looking different to an observer ! :eek: I've had a go at describing this previously in posts to try and help other people find the feel as well, but I've never had any feedback on how succesful it was :o

And I'm not saying I have it perfect myself - it is so hard to resist the urge to put a pull in the rein :( (but the horse tells you soon enough if you do !)

[teabiscuit]

be rider and horse. You can change the *feel* in the rein without it really looking different to an observer ! :eek: I've had a go at describing this previously in posts to try and help other people find the feel as well, but I've never had any feedback on how succesful it was :o



i tried it with my brother who is just starting to learn about outline and feel and all that malarky after 28 odd years fooling about with not a lot of contact:) his favourite is crossing his arms as he's hacking along :eek:

it was sooo difficult to do, i think i need to practice it first with someone who knows about feel. is it very individual? it seems to be from where i stand :confused:

[cvb]

i tried it with my brother who is just starting to learn about outline and feel and all that malarky after 28 odd years fooling about with not a lot of contact:) his favourite is crossing his arms as he's hacking along :eek:

it was sooo difficult to do, i think i need to practice it first with someone who knows about feel. is it very individual? it seems to be from where i stand :confused:

I think it does help to do the exercise with someone who can feedback and say "that makes me feel X" or "I feel that you want me to step forward" and so on...

it helps even more if they know what a soft feel is like from a horse ;) but the feedback is more important, as sometimes you are on a horse that does not "know" the feel either ;) they just know "ooo that feels good, it makes me want to flex my head" ;)

so teabiscuit - just get yourself up here for the Scottish meet and I'll try to remember to bring a pair of reins with me ;)

[teabiscuit]

that's very generous of you cvb :D

[Lucyad]

Hey cvb, can I take you up on that offer?

[cvb]

Hey cvb, can I take you up on that offer?

sure, but you may want to bring your own reins in case I forget !