question for all you colour experts!!

[devonlass]

Ok so following on from my thread about breeding my clydie mare,I now have a question about colours.

My mare is red roan and white,I was wondering if it were possible to know possible colour outcomes of future foalie.

First off what would I get if breeding to a chestnut??

Second what about a bay??

Thirdly what about a coloured??

Lastly I am particularly interesed in a few spot stally I have seen.It say's guaranteed to have a spotted foal.Would I get a spotty when breeding with my mare with her colouring?? Is there any way to know possible spot patterns?? ie:would it be likely that I would get spots all over,blanket spot etc.I'm guessing there is no way of knowing,but thought I would ask!!

Many thanx

ETA:In order to avoid getting a grey,I just need to avoid a grey stallion,yes??

[Joyscarer]

Calling chev...

[greasedweasel]

O.k - just got time for a quick answer to some of your question.....

Yes foal must have a grey parent so avoid a grey stallion and you will not get a grey foal.

Secondly the Few Spot stallion - well I have one - but mine's an appaloosa - he has thrown 100% colour but they have been everything from leopards, blankets to more minimal snowflakes. The sabino that clydies carry (ie that high white) is often thought to boost spotting patterns - so in theory you could get something very loud.

Will try and answer the rest later if someone else hasn't - but recommend looking at www.equinecolor.com.

[devonlass]

Originally Posted by Joyscarer

Calling chev...

Yes come on chev where are you

[devonlass]

Originally Posted by greasedweasel

O.k - just got time for a quick answer to some of your question.....

Yes foal must have a grey parent so avoid a grey stallion and you will not get a grey foal.

Secondly the Few Spot stallion - well I have one - but mine's an appaloosa - he has thrown 100% colour but they have been everything from leopards, blankets to more minimal snowflakes. The sabino that clydies carry (ie that high white) is often thought to boost spotting patterns - so in theory you could get something very loud.

Will try and answer the rest later if someone else hasn't - but recommend looking at www.equinecolor.com.

Thank you very much for your reply,you seem very knowledgable about colour,I find it all a little confusing

That's what I thought about the grey issue but wanted to check!!

The few spot thing is interesting,I especially did not know about the sabino in the clyde boosting spotting patterns,glad I asked now!!
I love the blanket spots,but am not so keen on all over spotting,so maybe should avoid the few spot stally?? Do you think the fact that he few spot as opposed to appaloosa will make difference?? or is there no real difference in terms of passing the spot gene on??

Sorry for so many Q's but my knowledge of colour in regards to the genetics of it is quite limited,although will check out that website and see if I can increase my knowledge a little (not holding my breath mind)

If you get time and could answer some of my other original questions also that would be much appreciated,sorry to be so demanding

[chev]

A fewspot is a horse that's homozygous for the spotting pattern. They have two copies of Lp and have no or very few spots - they also have night blindness.Using a fewspot guarantees that you'll get a spotty baby - but there are other genes involved in the pattern which seem to control the expression of the spots and white. So you could get anything from a horse with a spotty blanket right through to leopard patterns. If you don't want too many spots, don't use a fewspot (the night blindness only affects horses which are homozygous for Lp, so you wouldn't have to worry about that).

When you say your mare is red roan, do you mean true red roan where the body is roan and the head, legs, mane and tail are unaffected, or do you mean sabino roaning? I'm guessing it's sabino you mean, if this is the Clyde mare.

Putting her to a coloured stallion with two copies of tobiano would guarantee a coloured foal. Put her to a stallion with one copy and you have a 50/50 chance of colour.

If she carries e, then put to a chestnut you have a 25% chance of chestnut. If she has no e, you won't get a chestnut foal whichever stallion you use. Do Clydes come in black and chestnut? I suspect your mare may be homozygous for black and bay, which means she'll throw bay whatever you put her to.

There's a high chance of sabino markings on any foal she has, so you may well get big stockings, blaze and roaning on her foal too.

[devonlass]

Originally Posted by chev

A fewspot is a horse that's homozygous for the spotting pattern. They have two copies of Lp and have no or very few spots - they also have night blindness.Using a fewspot guarantees that you'll get a spotty baby - but there are other genes involved in the pattern which seem to control the expression of the spots and white. So you could get anything from a horse with a spotty blanket right through to leopard patterns. If you don't want too many spots, don't use a fewspot (the night blindness only affects horses which are homozygous for Lp, so you wouldn't have to worry about that).

When you say your mare is red roan, do you mean true red roan where the body is roan and the head, legs, mane and tail are unaffected, or do you mean sabino roaning? I'm guessing it's sabino you mean, if this is the Clyde mare.

Putting her to a coloured stallion with two copies of tobiano would guarantee a coloured foal. Put her to a stallion with one copy and you have a 50/50 chance of colour.

If she carries e, then put to a chestnut you have a 25% chance of chestnut. If she has no e, you won't get a chestnut foal whichever stallion you use. Do Clydes come in black and chestnut? I suspect your mare may be homozygous for black and bay, which means she'll throw bay whatever you put her to.

There's a high chance of sabino markings on any foal she has, so you may well get big stockings, blaze and roaning on her foal too.

Thank you chev

Will leave the few spot alone then I think,as don't really want lots of spots!! Think I was a bit confused by the 'few spot' bit assumed this meant what it said if you know what I mean,obviously it means quite the opposite!!

I *think* from reading up on a colour website that someone kindly gave me the link for earlier that my clyde is not a true roan,but is a sabino.Apparantly all clydes and shires are sabino.I was going by what it said in her passport where she is described as 'red roan and white'.Website siad though that they are often referred to as roans,when really they are all sabino (just to confuse matters further I assume)

Don't *think* that clydes actually come in black,not sure about chestnut,I assumed they did as they are referred to as 'red' but not sure.Think they are mostly various shades of brown,so assume this would be classed as bay?? Difficult to know with all the roaning they usually have,makes them look a different colour to what they actually are if that makes any sense.They often look a red sort of colour but this can happen with bay as well as chestnut I assume??

There are some pics of her on my other thread ('breeding clydie mare,but what with') if you would have a look maybe you could best decide what colour she is.Would be great if you could

When you say about being guaranteed a coloured with the right stally,does that mean a straightforeward coloured or would I still get the roaning??

Is there anything I could put her to that would mean I didn't get the excessive white and the roaning?? Or is that just part and parcel of the sabino no matter what you do??

Sorry for all the Q's,I am learning a bit but is all so complicated!!

[chev]

Originally Posted by devonlass

Thank you chev

Will leave the few spot alone then I think,as don't really want lots of spots!! Think I was a bit confused by the 'few spot' bit assumed this meant what it said if you know what I mean,obviously it means quite the opposite!!

It is a strange one; one Lp allele gives you lots of spots, two Lp alleles gives you only a few!

Originally Posted by devonlass

I *think* from reading up on a colour website that someone kindly gave me the link for earlier that my clyde is not a true roan,but is a sabino.Apparantly all clydes and shires are sabino.I was going by what it said in her passport where she is described as 'red roan and white'.Website siad though that they are often referred to as roans,when really they are all sabino (just to confuse matters further I assume)

It is sabino roaning; makes it rather more complicated to say how much roaning a foal would have. I've seen Shires with lots of white and roaning throw solid coloured foals when crossed with, say, TB; but there are no guarantees.

Originally Posted by devonlass

Don't *think* that clydes actually come in black,not sure about chestnut,I assumed they did as they are referred to as 'red' but not sure.Think they are mostly various shades of brown,so assume this would be classed as bay?? Difficult to know with all the roaning they usually have,makes them look a different colour to what they actually are if that makes any sense.They often look a red sort of colour but this can happen with bay as well as chestnut I assume??

Yes, that's consistent with bay. I'd say the most likely base colour for a foal would be bay.

Originally Posted by devonlass

When you say about being guaranteed a coloured with the right stally,does that mean a straightforeward coloured or would I still get the roaning??

There would probably be some roaning - most traditional coloured cobs carry sabino as well as tobiano (usually from heavy horse influence!) but because they have tobiano at work too, it's not usually that noticeable.

Originally Posted by devonlass

Is there anything I could put her to that would mean I didn't get the excessive white and the roaning?? Or is that just part and parcel of the sabino no matter what you do??

Sorry for all the Q's,I am learning a bit but is all so complicated!!

Difficult to answer that - like I say, I've seen part bred Shires that have no roaning at all and maybe one or two modest socks; but it's almost impossible to say one way or another.

If you were looking at coloured stallions, your best bet would be to look at those that have tobiano and as few sabino markers as you can. Also look at their foals to date; when you're talking about breeding foals with less white, you get a better idea of what you'd get by looking at progeny just as much as the stallion himself.

And there's no need to apologise for the questions!

[devonlass]

I have one last question if you don't mind and is just curiousity really as couldn't work it out at all from the website!!

What about if I bred with a cremello??

Someone fairly near to me has a cremello,and just got me to wondering what I would get out of that mix!!

Probably wouldn't use him TBH but tried to find out from website about cremello colour and breeding and couldn't work it out for the life of me so would just like to satisfy my curiousity really!!

Believe he is PBA if that makes any difference (probably not but thought I would mention just in case,told you I don't have a clue)

Many thanx

[greasedweasel]

Chev - do you think all few spots are night blind? I believe some are but not all.

Devonlass - I'm not sure I can add much to what Chev has told you but I thought you might like to have a look at this ladies website http://www.freewebs.com/swordaleknockandhu/

Just to give you examples of similar mares and what their foals look like. The owner uses the equinecolor forum and I'm sure she would be happy to chat if you wanted another opinion.

I used to think there was no chestnut in Clydies but our friends pure clydie mare has had chestnut foals to a bay TB stallion - so she must carry the chestnut gene. Her foals are nice but bright orange with high white legs and big blazes!

What would be your ideal colour and we can give you the best idea of how to achieve it?

[greasedweasel]

Originally Posted by devonlass

I have one last question if you don't mind and is just curiousity really as couldn't work it out at all from the website!!

What about if I bred with a cremello??

Someone fairly near to me has a cremello,and just got me to wondering what I would get out of that mix!!

Probably wouldn't use him TBH but tried to find out from website about cremello colour and breeding and couldn't work it out for the life of me so would just like to satisfy my curiousity really!!

Believe he is PBA if that makes any difference (probably not but thought I would mention just in case,told you I don't have a clue)

Many thanx

A cremello is a chestnut with two copies of the creme gene (a "double dilute") - so if your mare was a bay without a chestnut gene you would get a buckskin (NICE!!!) and then there would still be the slight chance if your mare carried a chestnut gene of a palomino. The foal would have one copy of the creme gene - you wouldn't be able to get a double dilute (ie you wouldn't get a cremello foal)

[devonlass]

Originally Posted by greasedweasel

Chev - do you think all few spots are night blind? I believe some are but not all.

Devonlass - I'm not sure I can add much to what Chev has told you but I thought you might like to have a look at this ladies website http://www.freewebs.com/swordaleknockandhu/

Just to give you examples of similar mares and what their foals look like. The owner uses the equinecolor forum and I'm sure she would be happy to chat if you wanted another opinion.

I used to think there was no chestnut in Clydies but our friends pure clydie mare has had chestnut foals to a bay TB stallion - so she must carry the chestnut gene. Her foals are nice but bright orange with high white legs and big blazes!

What would be your ideal colour and we can give you the best idea of how to achieve it?

Thank you very much for the website link I spent all afternoon on that other one you gave me!!

I'm not sure about the chestnut thing with clydes assumed they could have because of being referred to as 'red',but not so sure now.

I'm not sure I have an ideal colour,although would quite like to get rid of the white and roaning I have on my girl,although as it turms out she is actually a sabino (got that from that website you gave me) am thinking that might be tricky

I think either a solid colour,or a distinct pattern (like a coloured),would like something other than the splash and roan effect that my mare has got!!

[devonlass]

Originally Posted by greasedweasel

A cremello is a chestnut with two copies of the creme gene (a "double dilute") - so if your mare was a bay without a chestnut gene you would get a buckskin (NICE!!!) and then there would still be the slight chance if your mare carried a chestnut gene of a palomino. The foal would have one copy of the creme gene - you wouldn't be able to get a double dilute (ie you wouldn't get a cremello foal)

Cremello is chestnut??

I like the sound of those colours!! Would I definately get one or the other of those colours,or are there other possibilities with the cream gene??

Would my mare being sabino have any effect on the outcome if bred with a cremello??

This is all so interesting,thank you so much for indulging my curiousity

[greasedweasel]

Yes cremello is chestnut!! The one other possibility is creme on black gives you smokey black (basically doesn't show) I do not think you could/would get that with your mare.

Chances are you would still get sabino - I'm afraid it is more than likely you will get a lot of white on any foal you breed from her!!!

(Me being me - if the cremello was a nice horse, I would use him!!!)

[chev]

Originally Posted by greasedweasel

Chev - do you think all few spots are night blind? I believe some are but not all.

From what I've read all horses homozygous for Lp alleles are night blind, yes. Link to some interesting reading here, at the Appaloosa Project. The extent of the condition varies from horse to horse but affects all homozygous horses.