deeply depressed

[Mehitabel]

that's fantastic news chapsi, really glad you and pegasus have found some common ground. don't feel guilty about the amount of turnout - it's the best you can do and a hell of a lot better than none at all! well done.

[Jo]

Rocketman's advice is sound - but before taking it, Chapsi, I would ask myself some straight questions and honest answers. You sound like a very nervous rider - are you backing-off Pegasus? It's not a nice fact but it's a fact nonetheless that horses will try it on and will do whatever they can get away with. Pegasus doesn't have to be nasty to behave like this. I know horses who are angels for experienced and confident handlers but could be termed dangerous with handlers who mistake firmness for nastiness.

I have a mare who seems indifferent to me - if I have something for her she's intersted but otherwise she tells me to sod off! I have had her for three years and only now am I really bonding with her. Reading this post, it seems that's the average bonding time. 3 months is no time at all.

But if you are very nervous and are not hopeful that things might change, do as Rocketman says. And don't be upset that he seems good for others - it happens! He tests you because he recognises you as his owner, but not his leader, as yet!

Don't despair - there are easy horses out there. If Pegasus is genuinely a problem horse, give him to somone who can deal with him, or he'll be dangerous soon and then there is only one outcome...

[chapsi]

Reading your comment I don't quite think you read attentively these threads right up to the end.
Of course 3 months is not enough for bonding, but as I said, there is so much improvement both on the horse and on myself (how I feel around him, how I feel about the whole issue and within myself plays also important part), things are very different and clearly we are now in the BEGINNING of something GOOD. We are now in the process of bonding - I know it, I can sense it. Besides, not all animals take same time to bond, some might even never bond.
Therefore, right now wouldn't make much sense giving up on him. Now more than ever is the time to fight for him and to win him over.
He is a good horse, doesn't have to be an angel nor do I have to be his leader. A partnership is what I want, not a domination-submission relationship as I stated before. He has all the right to be treated with respect, not to be used as a pleasure object. Of course I am also entitled to my space and bounderies are to be set for both of us.
At 41 one sees life in a different perspective. I have all the time ahead of me to achieve this, and I shall do it patiently, bit by bit. Pegasus has taught me not to expect, but to take each day at a time.
process

[cvb]

also, although it can take a while, bonding is not an all or nothing thing. Your relationship grows slowly. So while you might get to the 3 year mark and think 'wow I have a much better relationship now', you have normally had the start of the bond for some time. Enough to keep you both going and keep the relationship together.

I've just had my mare for a year. And at the weekend I fell off for the second time. The first time, when we had been together for just 5 months, she went into complete panic and ran home. This time she went once around the outdoor school and then saw me on my feet again and headed towards me and slowed up.

You can not believe how pleased I was ! Sounds really weird given I had just been bucked off - but all I could think about was that she had come to me, because she clearly trusted me. And the rest of the session she was at extreme pains to keep me where she wanted me - in the saddle !

So Chapsi - keep that 'glow' that came through in your recent posts. Yes you will have ups and downs, but you've made the 'one small step for man' that you wanted. Good luck to you both because you deserve it.

[Jo]

Apologies, Chapsi, you are right - I responded to an early comment in the thread, not realising there was more. And how interesting it has been. I am pleased to hear that you are getting along better and I find it encouraging to read of your progress. I agree wholeheartedly with your conviction that horseownership is a partnership, and you seem to be building a strong one. I know as well as most that things go wrong and I cringe at the mistakes I have made with my mare - no wonder it took me three years to bond with her!

[FRED]

Well done Chapsi

We gain much knowledge from the hedgerows of life
{Winston Churhill}

[chapsi]

Hello everybody.

First of all, as an anthropologist, country folk wisdom makes part of my universe. I suppose I have "been counting chicken before they hatch".
Right now I guess what is coming from some of you (even if you don't spell it, I bet you will be thinking it): "I told you so", "you have been warned"... I have been talking to myself and I have been saying: "you asked for it"!
Grief, he bit me again, unprovocked!
Everything was so much better, things were going so well for both, we were starting to enjoy each other more, to trust...
He knocked his hoof pick to the ground, and as I bent down to grab it, he bit me really quickly on my shoulder. The yard's owner was standing beside me, and the horse was so fast with his teeth, that he thought the horse had just bumped his muzzle on me when I got up. It was a bite. I have broken skin, a bite and several circular red teeth marks to prove it.
All I can say is that I sensed that Pegasus was not in the best of moods. On his favour, he hadn't been turned down for the last 2 days. I think he really needs it. But I couldn't do it, Saturday I lunged and rode him, Sunday I had to be at a conference and the yard's owner chose to lunge him.
I understand the horse's frustration, but this behaviour is not acceptable. Any advice apart from "selling the horse?"
Anyway, selling is not viable. There is a big financial crisis going at the moment and who in their right mind would buy a "bitting horse"? I couldn't be deshonest about this issue.

[cvb]

well if you are into folk sayings "Two swallows do not a summer make".

You have to remember that behaviour is not all on or all off. If he is relearning to trust, he will relapse now and then - you just need to carry on being consistent. What you could do is keep a diary, then you can look for patterns, but also look for an increasing gap between incidents. I'm sure you'll see it...

A horse that has lost trust will partly be waiting for the badness from humans to start again. I am truely not anthropomorphising, but if someone else worked him, this may have worried him and put him on edge a bit. If you keep a diary, you can see whether he gets more stressed after certain events or not. (My second pony was so stressed after bad treatment that he shook if you raised your voice at him - and it took YEARS of good treatment before he lost this reaction.)

Parelli teaches some 'blocks' to use in situations like this, just using your arm to keep them away. Might be useful ?

Also in the situation you describe, could you have made the situation safer by moving the hoof pick with your foot to further away before picking it up ? i.e. give him less opportunity.

I know we're not there, can't see it, but if your yard owner is still supportive, and selling would be difficult anyway, isn't it best to persevere - looking to safety for yourself, and calm consisten treatment for him ?

There is a biting, kicking horse at my yard. The owners are just careful handling him. He got me once - he is very good at not giving any prior signals before he bites. But now I know, I just try not to give him any opportunity, but still make nice to him if the opportunity is there to give him a rub or a scritch. Seems to work. I don't think he has any reason - he's just a grumpy type.

[chapsi]

Thanks CVB, your suggestions are always welcome.
I have thought for some time keeping a diary, and yes, the biting is reoccuring with less frequency (last time was about a month).
I don't see my horse as grumpy, but that might be the case.
As regards picking the hoof-pick with my foot, I could have done it, it's just I was showing the horse that I was not worried to be around him.
I do not wish to give up, I'll persevere, although its hard not to let an occurence like this rub on me, specially when my shoulder hurts like mad, and my inner self feels shaken again. Alas, I still find a little streak of stuborness to keep me going.
Ah, ah, ah, it's a challenge that reminds me of how I conquored my husband (the only difference is that my husband never bit)

[Mehitabel]

i defintiely agree with what cvb says, having a grumpy old monster myself! he does sound like he's getting better, but he will possibly (just like my copper) always be the kind of horse who will let you know when he isn't happy. copper uses his teeth to get this message across as well!
a diary is a fantastic idea - then you'll be able to look back over a longer period of time and pick up patterns in his behaviour. i wish i'd thought of that when i was going through it with copper.
copper had to do an extra ride on saturday, as he had been specially requested for a birthday ride, and he was highly annoyed at having to work when he usually finishes - bit 3 people in the space of about 5 minutes. you aren't alone!

[cvb]

chapsi - not trying to suggest that your fellow will stay grumpy... sounds like he has had reasonable cause to not trust people.

But the grumpy horse in our yard is ok - just a grump. He's shared by a mother and daughter. Daughter likes dressage,mother likes to hack around safely. And he does both. So they are quite happy to put up with his 'character' because otherwise he is what they want.

I am sure your guy will come around over time. May be that he still wants to have a go at strangers he does not know - so you may need to warn visitors for a while ! But keep that stubborn streak going

Sounds like you've already had some practise at Taming Shrews ! (after that comment about your husband !)

[chapsi]

Es, how do you handle Cooper's biting? What do you do when he bites?
I find that when me horse bites he knows exactly what he did and immediately he takes on a defensive posture waiting for the punishment to be lashed. Most people say I should hit him hard, preferably in the muzzle... he has been smacked hardly in the past and yet he hasn't lost his habit of biting. It seems pointless carrying on hitting him. He knows when he does wrong. Kelly Manners has suggested I should clearly say "no" and push him away from me.
What do you do in similar situations?

I don't feed him a thing by hand. All his treats go into his manger.

[Mehitabel]

copper has also been whacked in the past, and also does the defensive waving his head in the air thing as soon as he's bitten. when he was doing it all the time for no reason, i did smack him, and it did help, along with the general retraining that i did on his dominance issues. these days he only bites when he's telling me something, and is quite apologetic afterwards, so a dirty look and pointing at him usually does the trick - he'll cower for a second and then nudge the pointing finger with his nose to say sorry. one thing that i have done with the stallions, who bite from general 'boyishness' rather than pain or anything else, is bite them back on the side of the lip. it really works, but i can completely understand you not wanting to get your face near his mouth!

from your post on the circumstances, it does seem to me that he was unhappy about something and was trying to tell you in the only way he knows will get a reaction. it might be worth trying not to react at all when he does these things - but it can have the opposite effect to what you want. he might realise that it doesn't get a reaction and so stop bothering, but on the other hand he might lose the fear of punishment and do it more! it's a difficult one - i've known horses respond both ways.

[Tumbleweed]

ES, food for thought, I have not come across a horse that loses the fear of punishment and do it more, but I have come across many who stopped biting when they learnt to trust their owner.

With biters I do try and protect myself without going to extreme measures. One method is when working with them to keep my elbow up high so that when they swing sideways to bite, my elbow catches them. You carry on as if nothing has happened and your horse doesn't know where that came from. If find this works even better if you are singing

I remember many years ago when we had 3 days to get 6 or 7 horses from a dealer,ready for the horse sales. One in particular stands out, he was a 3 year old who had never had his back legs or tail brushed, and we soon found out why. He could really kick.

Theses horses had to be clipped, bathed, shod and plaitted up ready to go to the sales. We didn't have time to punish him or put a twitch on, we just continued to carry on ignoring his flying hooves. We did know that if we didn't get him done he would go for meat. He walked out of the stable to go off to the sales, immaculate. He no longer kicked when you tried to brush his back legs or tail, even strangers came in the day before to see if he would kick.

While he was with us for those few days, he had learnt that no matter how much he kicked, he was still attended to but there were no consequences when he kicked.

If you meet aggression with aggression you will only make it worse. There are other ways, but it does take time and patience to build a bond of trust.

[Mehitabel]

in most cases, i do think ignoring the behaviour works, but we went through hell with one of our young men, who, despite being brought up exactly the same as the other boys, is really typically stalliony - he bites, rears, barges and is generally a pain in the backside. the other 4 are lovely, sweet well behaved boys. we tried the only being nice and never shouting, ignoring bad behaviour etc techniques, and he got steadily worse and worse over the 6 or so months we persevered with it.
he seemed to lose respect for us as we ignored him. eventually he got to the point where we couldn't ignore him any more because he was getting dangerous, so fiona came down hard on him next time he was naughty and he has been getting better using more traditional techniques of a 'no' or a smack when he's naughty, and lots of praise and generally begin very nice to be around when he's being good.

most, though, do respond to it, and i definitely agree that it's a case of bonding and trusting the owner to be 'boss' and not feeling that they have to take responsibility for their own safety, so accepting that the owner won't hurt them and they don't need to defend themselves against the owner.

[Tumbleweed]

In other words ES, you had a teenage larger lout.

I don't believe in never letting them know you don't like that behaviour, they would soon become spoilt brats if we did. An elbow left up for them to knock themselves on when they turn round to bite is a form of punishment, but a punishment the horse doesn't relate to the owner.

There is always one, it doesn't matter where it is a horse, dog child etc, there is always one that never knows when to stop pushing until you have to use stronger methods.

[chapsi]

Several people have suggested the elbow trick. However, the times when I or other people have been bit were as we were in a vulnerable position, i.e., bending to clean his hooves, with both arms up saddling him, picking something off the floor... He does it when he sees us at easy reach.

[Jo]

Two steps forw`rd, one step back still means forward motion - you have made progress and should be proud of yourself - I'm sure you are.

There's a gorgeous grey gelding at my yard who is perfect in almost every sense, except he bites in his stable. In his case, he seems much worse when inexperienced people have been grooming him. The yard manager is conv inced that he's a horse who will try it on and if he gets away with it with one person, it leads to misbehaviour with others. Her response is to hit him - HARD. I have to confess that I can tell when she's "spoken" to him - he behaves himself. Me, I refuse to hit him. I don't know how hard or exactly when I should strike and I hate the idea any way.

What I do when I'm grooming him and he's grumpy is I watch closely for the signs he's getting cross (easy with him as it occurs mainly when his rugs are being fitted or taken off and when his girth area is being groomed) and when I see the ears in the tell-tgale position I let him know I am not going to put up with any nonsense by gently taking a piece of loose skin between my thumb and forefinger. I have never yet applied any pressure but he seems to regard it as a premptive strike and doesn't bite. I don't know what i'll do when he ignores this, but this strategy has worked for several months. You guys may shoot me down in flames for doing it and I have no idea whether it's correct procedure but it works for me.

Incidentally, he's grumpier when he's been stabled all day.

Good luck with your boy, Chapsi - I have a real feeling you are going to make a fine team. It takes time but it's so worth it when it happens.

[chapsi]

Thanks Jo.

Apart from my horse's antics/testing, biting is definately the biggest problem that I have to deal with at present. I need to devise strategies, alternatives to HARD smacking, as I feel that is an endless violence cycle that won't work for him anyway. He has been punished hard enough by the yard's owner for biting, and still he carries on biting. So, hitting him is no solution. It just gets him tense, as after biting he gets into a defensive posture already waiting for the blow.
I've read a lot reports from other riders experiences and unfortunately in the majority of cases riders and horses seem to learn to live with it, making adjustments to cope with this nasty habit.

[Peace]

chapsi, I don't know a whole lot about horses, yet, but I have successfully rehabilitated biting dogs. The first thing I always did was figure out what situations were likely to prompt a bite - have you observed any patterns to Pegasus' biting episodes?

If you can determine the circumstances that are likely to produce a biting response, you can probably find a way to defuse the situation before it erupts into violence.

I completely agree with you that hitting is not a good response. At least with dogs, many times biting is a fear response, and of course hitting only reinforces their reason for biting in the first place.

You've come a long way with this horse - I'm sure you can find a way to get past this problem! It sounds like you're able to do more with him than anyone else ever has!