Firm but fair?

[celticponeh]

This is something that's been bugging me since I started working at my (soon to be ex) job. The whole 'firm vs fair' thing.

Or, putting it another way. When is it right or appropriate to be firm with a horse?

For instance last time I was up at the stable, Copper wouldn't move over for me to inspect and pick his hooves, so I had to whack him him on hs rear to get him to move over, but that startled him (after putting pressure on his legs didn't do anything at all, it was like pushing a wall), which got me thinking about the firm vs fair debate, as he was skittish around me after that (which he's got over by me majorly loving on him.) My issue is that I don't want him to assosicate me with hitting him (which I haven't, that was the first time)

So. When it it right to use force on horses, versus being gentle with them?

[caroline/halle]

i think firm but fair is the right approach, you can be firm to the degree they will comply e.g if he didn't move over with a light touch increase the pressure until they move so this could range from just digging a bit harder or a slap with your hand depending on sensitivity of horse. also if you are working with a bolshy horse it is necessary to be firm as it is you "bossing" them around instead of the other way round which could lead to dangerous behaviour if they are allowed to do as they please. horses are much rougher with eachother than we can ever be with them so i wouldn't worry about him fearing you

[Gillydaydream]

I think firm but fair is absolutely fine, so long as the "firm" behaviour is given in a way that the horse understands.

Apologies if this is not what you want to hear, but he was skittish around you because he was scared of you. Whacking and shouting is not a way that horses learn, it doesn't build a bond of trust and respect and doesn't result in a true partnership.

I agree with Caroline/Halle in that the pressure should be increased gradually- a small ask followed by a push if you get no response, and up that pressure more if necessary. An elbow or knuckle gives more pressure than the flat of your hand, but always always start off with minimal pressure and build up. Alternatively, if the horse is planted you can turn the head towards you to disengage the back end and then ask them to move over. And don't forget lots and lots of praise when they do it right, every time! Horses love to please and respond well to praise and reward. Reward even the slightest move, it might take time but gradually you'll find you can decrease the pressure of the aid as the horse starts to learn what you are asking.

[Joyscarer]

Its not firm vs fair, its firm but fair.

If Joy knows what's expected of her and if she doesn't do it i escalate the pressure until she complies.

I am consistent in my expectations of her and consistent in trying to lighten my aids to her but consistent in upping the pressure until I get the result I expect.

My expectations of her is consistent with her level of training. I don't expect great things. I just expect her to do as she's been taught.

[Cortrasna]

If I 'whacked' any of mine because they wouldnt get over the only response I would get is that they would jump in any direction, could be up in the air, backwards, forwards or over. In other words, they would not know or understand what I was asking them to do?

However, If I nudged them in their rib cage with my knuckle they should know from previous training that I am asking them to move over, if my asking is ignored for whatever reason (being bolshy or plain obstinate!)then I hold their head collar/bridle in one hand and pull their head towards me while I again nudge their side with my knuckle indicating I want them to disengage the big end and shift over!

If they are being really, really difficult gob sh**es then a harsh growl while I repeat the process is usually enough. If at this point I was to slap them on the rump - all communication between us would break down and I might as well sling them back in the field and forget it for the day!

[AengusOg]

It's never appropriate to use force with horses.

Horses instinctively lean into pressure, and must be taught, by use of firm pressure to yield. So, if you had used your knuckles against your horse's flank, or in the soft area between his ribs and stifle, and held that pressure there long enough, your horse would have yielded to that pressure and would not have to have been hit.

I've never hit a horse in my life, yet they do everything I ask of them. That's because I am fair but firm, and give them a chance to understand what I am asking of them.

[liz_scarlet]

I've been told consistency is the key to this, If you ask and they don't respond then then always do the same thing to get a response...they apparently learn the time its really serious....I'm still learning tho!

I have only smacked Scarlet twice....both times on the shoulder. Once she nipped my arm and she has never tried it again and once she walked through me in a huff and again she hasn't done it again. However if its a normal day strop i.e not lifting feet (happens often!) I take hold of her head collar, make her look at me and just say her name in a low but forceful voice..she gives me white eye then lifts her foot.

Moving her over is normally just saying over with a hand on her bum.

I don't think I'd whack her bum...I don't want her scared of me, just need her to know I'm boss and not her...ha-ha!

Maybe she is better behaved than I thought.

[celticponeh]

Originally Posted by Gillydaydream

I think firm but fair is absolutely fine, so long as the "firm" behaviour is given in a way that the horse understands.

Apologies if this is not what you want to hear, but he was skittish around you because he was scared of you. Whacking and shouting is not a way that horses learn, it doesn't build a bond of trust and respect and doesn't result in a true partnership.

I agree with Caroline/Halle in that the pressure should be increased gradually- a small ask followed by a push if you get no response, and up that pressure more if necessary. An elbow or knuckle gives more pressure than the flat of your hand, but always always start off with minimal pressure and build up. Alternatively, if the horse is planted you can turn the head towards you to disengage the back end and then ask them to move over. And don't forget lots and lots of praise when they do it right, every time! Horses love to please and respond well to praise and reward. Reward even the slightest move, it might take time but gradually you'll find you can decrease the pressure of the aid as the horse starts to learn what you are asking.

I agree it's not a way he learns, however I haven't (and won't on principle) make a habit of it, it was simply a one off thing. The rest of the time I'm firm with applying pressure to him, but that day he wouldn't move at all, I'd got a leading rein on and he'd dug his hooves in.

I'm more concerned that he's now permanently scared of me thanks to what I did (which I'm wary of, that's the last thing I want). Should I be concerned?

[Yann]

There might be circumstances where it's OK to hit a horse if you're in danger, but they'll normally be the result of a massive training failure on yours or someone else's part at some point. The biggest problem horses have is that we expect them to know stuff that nobody has explicitly gone to the effort of teaching them properly. They then get a smack when they don't do what we thought they were supposed to know, or should know.

The biggest issue that people are often unaware of is the principle of pressure and release. If you ask a horse to do something with a bit of pressure, and remove the pressure the moment the horse responds they understand what you've asked for and it makes them more likely to recognise the cue you used the next time. This underpins most of the stuff we do with horses, on the ground or ridden, but we often do it without realising what we're doing and get it slightly wrong as a result.

Sometimes a bit of technique can help too - next time you want to move hindquarters over bend the head towards you. Small stuff like that can make all the difference.

Not hitting is not the same as never using pressure, because that's often inevitable with horses, especially when you're setting the boundaries, but using pressure and release (negative reinforcement in learning theory terms) is always going to be more effective at training a behaviour than hitting (positive punishment). Even better if you can get a horse doing something because it wants to and they see there's something in it for them.

[AengusOg]

When pressure is applied, the horse may respond in a way which was not desired by the trainer, but the pressure must still be released. Otherwise, resistance will be inevitable from the horse, as non-release of pressure amounts to restraint/force. If the horse gave an incorrect response he must be asked again, using the same cue, so that he gets another chance to offer a correct response.

When the horse gives the correct response, the pressure is released, then the horse should be given verbal praise which will help him connect the cue to the correct response. Upon that cue being given again, the horse is more likely to offer the desired response.

[fairlady]

I am a great advocate of firm but fair.............but by the use of pressure as opposed to the use of hitting.

But along with firm and fair comes consistency.........if you let the Horse do something one day, tell it off the next, but relax on the issue the next day they will never know where they stand.

I 'try' never to set my two up for 'failure', if they don't understand what I am asking OR chose to ignore what I am asking, I will look to myself before blaming them and ask again.

However neither am I against a quick 'slap' if its warranted, tbh I don't think either would really 'feel' a slap on the shoulder, but would certainly grasp the principal..........both my two know its unacceptable to bite, kick etc., but tbh I find a 'growl' works as they both understand the rules, not that they either bite or kick, lol, as both look to please and don't like being told off

[angelfben]

I rarely smack because tbh I don't think horses really understand what a smack means. I will smack if I get kicked out at or bitten, because that's a normal reaction they'd receive from another horse towards that sort of behaviour. I don't think it works well in teaching manners though, its too vague.

If I have a rude, bolshy horse who is not moving over when I ask.. I'd be more inclined to give it a hard poke with my finger until it moves. I've never known a horse that didn't react to "hard pokey finger" and as soon as they move you can take the finger away, so they know exactly what you wanted. I got my horse backing up by just touching him lightly with my fingertips this way, and he was the rudest beggar going when he arrived.