Vicous Behaviour!

[Tor&Warrior]

Since Vinny has been better he has become more bolshy and ful of himself but this is to be expected and he not bad considering his age (7months). None of this bothers me it's just he has started to be really vicous. He likes to chew everything, coats, wellies, fingers!! Etc but this is just a baby thing but now if I get to close to him he bites my face, hands, legs etc. It's not a cheeky nip either its a real meaningful grab! He'll open his mouth, ears flat back. And if you bend over or put yourself in a vunerable position around him he does it and he brages into me and kicks out with his front legs. I was walking arcoss the field the other day and he came charging across and started it and I ended up being kicked badly in the stomach with his front foot (have lovely big bruise). It's quite frightening as he's getting rather large now, he's a good 14hh possibly bigger. Is it just him being colty? He's being cut next week. What should I do when he does this? At the moment I just avoid any situation that could result in this behavious or if he does do it just push his head away. Do you think it will go as he gets older? Also he's not very affectionate. He seems to hate it if I cuddle him or try and make a fuss and will just barge me out the way or bite me! Are all foals like this, not really into cuddles! He's perfect in every way but this behaviour does worry me. Ive never been frightened of a horse before but he can rather intimidating.

[nutkin]

i don't have alot of experience around colt foals but i do know that all foals go through the phase of trying to assert their authority over you and therefore need experienced handling. I would reprimand the biting and kicking instantly. For instance when he comes at you with his teeth you need to maybe pull his whiskers immediately. He will then assume that biting is not fun and think twice before doing it. This may take several attempts before he associates it as his fault. Whilst you may think it is cute when he is playing with you at the moment as you have said it will not be funny when he gets bigger and stronger. The kicking may not be so easy to solve. I am sure there are others on here that will be able to advise on this though. What i can tell you though is that this behaviour will only get worse unless you nip it in the bud now. Having him cut may help a little with his behaviour but it certainly won't be an instant improvement and it won't stop it altogether as all horses will assert their authority if they are allowed to. Have you started leading him yet as this will be a good start with regard to teaching him how to respect you. He needs to know how he is expected to behave around you and to respect your personal space.

[Tor&Warrior]

Thanks Nutkin! Althought I know this behaviour is obvisouly not acceptable I wasn't sure if I should be telling him off for it but I will make sure I do from now on. I don't let him chew anything any more and he doesn't get treats from hand etc. He doesn't ever kick with his back legs it's just when he gets bolshy and it's with his front. I don't know how to stop him doing this though. I know he needs to be taught right from wrong but I don't want to go hitting him. He does lead although can be very nappy and plants his feet unless were going somewhere he wants to go! He ties up, will be groomed, have his feet picked and his rugs put on like an angel. This behaviour is his only problem. He's very confident and sure of him self. In the field he dominates Warrior because Warrior is just stupid and lets any body pick on him so I think it doesn't help that he's top on the pecking order in the field at such an earlier age either! Could this be not helping? Because he can dominate Warrior he thinks he can me aswell??

[Harry Hobbes]

Since Vinny has been better he has become more bolshy and ful of himself but this is to be expected and he not bad considering his age (7months). None of this bothers me it's just he has started to be really vicous. He likes to chew everything, coats, wellies, fingers!! Etc but this is just a baby thing but now if I get to close to him he bites my face, hands, legs etc. It's not a cheeky nip either its a real meaningful grab! He'll open his mouth, ears flat back. And if you bend over or put yourself in a vunerable position around him he does it and he brages into me and kicks out with his front legs.

He is a youngster who is trying to assert his place higher in the pecking order. All colts attempt to resolve their position; the tactics (behaviors) they use tend to escalate until "they are put into their place", or he puts you in yours; i.e., the place in the pecking order.

Vinny is working very hard to subordinate you in the pecking order, and to keep you in the place he's selected for your (which is below him).

Your application of the Parelli training will enable you to "capture the top slot" and keep it; rendering Vinny a nice, well-behaved subordinate horse (amoung other benefits). However, within any and all interaction you have with Vinny (Parelli games or other interaction; a moment or an hour), you must assert your leadership of the pecking order.

You do this by causing him to move his feet at your volition (and direction). The "leader" is the party that dominates the movements of the other. This is basic horse behavior, embedded into their genes.

I was walking arcoss the field the other day and he came charging across and started it and I ended up being kicked badly in the stomach with his front foot (have lovely big bruise).

His charging you in the field was intended to "move you", thereby asserting his dominance (i.e., leadership) over you. You didn't subordinate yourself quick enough (move away fast enough), so he followed through with the kick. Had you turned and ran, he'd continued to chase you, but would only kick if you didn't move fast enough.

The next time he'll be stronger, quicker, more determined.

So, "interrupt his tactic" by throwing something at him in an attempt to hit him hard, as he closes on you at a run. I like those rubber horse buckets, as they can't really hurt the horse, but he'll get the message; but, only if you really mean it. Bounce the bucket off of his disrespectful butt (or shoulder). Hard.

Then get him haltered and make him move his feet, as described below.

Is it just him being colty? He's being cut next week.

Yes; in the sense that he must work out his relationships. Being young, he's not completely accomplished this yet. Also, being young, I'm sure that he's much more overt about establishing his dominance, vis-a-vis a seasoned horse.

The loss of Testosterone will eliminate one physiological component driving his future behavior; that of the drive to reproduce, the driving effect of which he has not yet old enough to experience fully. But, cutting does not eliminate genes, which are the underlying cause of his need to establish himself in the pecking order. (And his gene-driven behaviors are in full effect now - horses being a precocial species.)

I just avoid any situation that could result in this behavious or if he does do it just push his head away. Do you think it will go as he gets older?

He will view avoiding as "submission". Your submission will reinforce this now; when he's older, he'll be quicker, stronger, and more determined to remain the dominate one.

What should I do when he does this?

Carry a "force multiplier" any time you interact with him (like a lunge whip or rubber bucket). Be prepared to enforce your dominance (leadership) by forcing him to move his feet at your direction. Use the force multiplier to get movement of his feet.

Anytime he asserts pushy, disrespectful behavior, immediately make him move: left, right, forward, back; direction does not matter. Make him move. Continue to make him move at your direction until he shows signs of "backing down", then stop and pet him (reward him for accepting your leadership). If he gets pushy again, move him again, only more so, and get real aggressive about making him move. See if you can get him to trot backwards with suspension. You are very much in a test of wills, engaged via physical force, because the horse understands movement required from physical force. This is what his dam did to assert her dominance of him.

Also he's not very affectionate. He seems to hate it if I cuddle him or try and make a fuss and will just barge me out the way or bite me!

He's the leader. This is what's in his mind: "How dare a subordinate touch me without my permission!" So he "corrects" your behavior with his teeth.

Are all foals like this, not really into cuddles!

Only those that are dominate over you. Look at this from his perspective: "I need to spend soooo much time and effort to keep that subordinate in her place!"

Ive never been frightened of a horse before but he can rather intimidating.

Exactly! Physical intimidation and follow-through is exactly how horses establish and maintain the pecking order. Just watch any herd.

Because he can dominate Warrior he thinks he can me aswell??

Yep. And he has. He's been successful, so you may expect him to repeat successful behaviors.

I know he needs to be taught right from wrong but I don't want to go hitting him.

Tor&Warrior,

Horses are not capable of, and do not engage in moral judgements (i.e., good and bad). They operate strickly from instinct; "good" and "bad" are human moral judgements that are not in their instinct (nor any other animal's). The best we can do is to teach them acceptable behaviors; but if you include moral constructs, and worse, moral judgements of the horse's behaviors into the training of your horse, he will fail to be "good", you will fail, and only frustrate yourself.

Much abuse of the horse at the hands of humans is rooted in the human habit of assigning expectations of moral behavior to the horse; and trying to correct for it; rather than considering the behavior dispationately, as either acceptable or not acceptable.

Vinny's behaviors are not "bad", and they won't ever be "good"; but, they are unacceptable, and he can be trained to exhibit acceptable behaviors.


The Parelli Seven Games (Level 1) are chock full of movement: you moving him; him moving because you said so. That is, you continuously and repeatedly asserting your dominance over him. The games teach you and him many skills; but, embedded in all of Parelli's techniques is you continuously being the leader (making him move for you).

This is the little-spoken of, but essential hidden benefit of all ground work.

Best regards,
Harry

[Tootsie4U]

Tori, heed Harry's words carefully and completely. They're right on. He is just a colt now, but if you dont get things sorted out, they are very likely to become very dangerous!

[Alibi]

I had similar problems with my 2 foals, one in particular was a very bolshy, teeth baring, kick you when i can sort of chap. In a matter of days of starting Parelli he saw me as his leader, and still does and now i have a pair of delightful cobs, who love a cuddle - when they're allowed!

Harry's message explains it all as well as it ever could be!

Start implementing the changes today to get things sorted out - i found a plastic bag very useful when mine were trampling all over me, or a rubber bucket as mentioned.

Check out the expression on his face the first time you stand up to him - guess it will be a picture! Mine were just so shocked and they literally didn't know what hit 'em!

[Harry Hobbes]

i found a plastic bag very useful

Ahhh! What a wonderful force-multiplier!

Light-weight, just strange enough to the horse to draw his attention. And potentially, a predator in disguise!

This is a great idea!

[Tootsie4U]

Alibi's right, there will most definately be a "look".

[Tor&Warrior]

Thanks soooooooo much!!!!! Youhave covered everything I could ever ask!!! I can't wait to see thi slook will let you know when I get it!!

[tiarri]

Harry Hobbles is right. He is being dominant and succeeding. I was having a very similar problem with my 5yo STB. He started pushing me around at feed time, nipping at me and threatening to kick me. Because he was only new I was letting him get away with to much. He is kept in a stable with access to a yard. Everytime I take his feed into him I carry a lunge whip and use my body language (reinforced with the whip) to make him go out in the yard while I mix his feed. By doing this I am asserting myself as the herd leader. Once I have finished his feed I wait for a few minutes then allow him into the stable. I keep between him and the food and he "salutes" me but coming up to me and showing submissive behaviour and asking permission to eat. I grant his wishes by giveing one pat on the forehead and then relaxing my body language and allowing him to eat. I then leave him alone. This simple routine has changed his attitude so much. His a very sweet horse who just needed to be put into his place. Heed Harry Hobbles advice and your boy will love you all the more for it. Best of luck!

[Dartmoor_Ponies]

This it seems as though I've been using the basics of Parelli methods without even knowing it! LOL!

I merely use my observations of my ponies 'herd' interactions as a guide of how to deal with most situations!


For example:

A colt I bought was very bolshy as a two year old and would do similar things in the paddock as Vinny, though not quite as seriously at that time.

Having observed how dominant and submissive ponies behaved towards each other, the next time he rushed at me in the paddock I stood my ground (stiff broom in hand if needed).

This stumped him for a moment and he stopped dead about 3 feet in front of me shaking his head at me. So I put my hands on my hips and stood facing him making myself as imposing as possible and advanced on him one step at a time looking him straight in the face.

When I was about a foot away from him he dropped his head and stepped back and to the side, before turning away as I continued to advance on him. Once he turned away I stopped advancing on him and stood still watching him, until he wandered off to graze.

He tried it a couple more times with the same result before giving up on the 'game'!

[Harry Hobbes]

When I was about a foot away from him he dropped his head and stepped back and to the side, before turning away as I continued to advance on him. Once he turned away I stopped advancing on him and stood still watching him, until he wandered off to graze.

Be advised that the "turning away" can, and is used by the horse as a more subtle technique to infer and impose dominance through body posture. It sounds like he backed off, then tried a little more subtle form of dominance:

When a horse turns away, watch where he aligns his butt. If he turns his butt directly to you, putting you directly behind him (in the "stand here to get kicked" position), he's exhibiting dominate behavior. Should you stand there and do nothing, you've allowed the horse to get away with being dominate in that action, and you'll have to correct further (overcome this reversal) later on.

You'll know when this happens, not only by observing it; but also your instincts will suddenly put you on guard; your subconscious will know something is wrong, even if your conscious doesn't recognize it. You'll suddenly feel threatened. It'll happen in an instant; but, listen to your instincts.

Should the horse put his butt on you, attack it immediately and drive him off (chase him off) hard and fast, thereby correcting his attempt to dominate you. Then, let things settle down, go catch him and pet him when he submits to being caught. Nothing personal, and no hard feelings.

If he leaves by turning his butt to you and angles away, but does not align it directly on you, then he's just leaving in a respectful manner; let him leave respectfully.

Also, if he turns away, moves a length or two, stops and stands while quartering away, so that you're positioned off to the rear of his hip, and watching your next move with his lateral vision, he's again testing the dominance; make him move.

Watch this carefully, as horses use their body position, especially their butt, to infer and impose social standing.

This is the subtle but strategic reason why I train folks to always have the horse face up (i.e., face you) when you (or he) approach (i.e., join up), and always turn your back to the horse and you leave the horse first when you separate.

Best regards,
Harry

[Tor&Warrior]

I got it!!!The "look"!! Had really bad winds yesterday and yet again Vin managed to get tangled in the electric tape. It is on but he seems to have no feeling!! The first time he did it he was stood wrapped in it making no fuss so I went up to take it off thinking it couldn't be working a got a huge shock! He NEVER seems to feel it!!! He was stood with it wrapped round his neck the other day chewing his way out while it was on!! He'll usually be tangled in it so I'll go to rescue him and he'll come running up to me bringing the whole 2 acres of fence with him!!!!!!!! Or because he's walking round dragging the tape behind him Warrior (who has forty fits at the site of it) will being having heart failur and running away so Vinny thinks its fun to chase him and again drags the fencing all into a big tangled mess!! But anyway went out to him because he'd dragged the tape round the field. Decided to take the lunge whip. He didn't bother me to start then came charging up again so I flicked the whip out, it didn't hit him, but he stopped dead in his tracks!! You could see he was thinking well thats different to what you usually do!! But still he carried on hanging round but not coming near me. But I turned away trying to carry on with the fence and he barged me and went to bite my face so I wacked him straight away (still had the lunge whip in my hand). He shot backwards and you could really see the shock but he wasn't gonna give up easily!! And he barged me again and kicked out with his front leg so I wacked him again and I think we really hit home that time. He almost sat on his arse!! Not that it was hard I think it was more shock!!!!! You could just imagine him gasping "O my God she hit me!!!!" And I made him walk back about 10 steps!! In the whole time I've had him, in just those few seconds it was like a completeley different relationship I could just see it in his eyes!!!! I can't believe myself that it happened so quick!!! He then followed me round the whole time I was in the field, head down, ears forward and at a distant. No barging, ears back, bolshyness NOTHING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! And I am very pleased to say we had out very first, proper Hug this morning without me having to avoid flying teeth and hooves!!!!!! And althought usually he's never bad to catch he just stands on the other end of the field and then plants his feet when I try to lead him. Well I went out to them earlier, before it had started to get dusk because I wanted to clean my tack (my tack has been cleaned so much since Warrior hasn't been ridden its gone into shock, I'm cleaning Warriors leather head collar every day!!!:eek ) and Vin saw me, neighed and trotted over to the gate waiting to be caught!!!!!!! I can't even believe it as I'm writting it!!!!!!!! So quickly aswel!!!!!!! Warrior had his nose rather put out though because he likes to see himself as the good little boy that comes running when he sees me and is first in and watches while Vinny takes the nxt half hour to come in looking at me like aren't "I" wonderful!!!! Vinny came in first and Warrior had a complete paddy and galloped about three times round the filed bucking and squealing! So from that I took it he wasn't very happy!! Sorry I'm waffling now but I'm sooooo happy!!!! Thanks to everybody who's helped!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Harry Hobbes]

Outstanding!

From your post, I'd say you did everything correct; part and parcel. Did you notice that your violence is a language that he understands? Again, they resolve their social status and hierarchy by pushing each other around (sometimes violently). Now you're talking his language.

He'll test you again; maybe more pronounced, maybe just a little. But, be prepared to repeat all above. If you're absolutely consistent (at not tolerating his unacceptable behavior), he'll get the message and give in with just a little test.

Best regards,
Harry

P.S. I've decided that I'm never going to try and mug you and steal your purse.

[Tor&Warrior]

It's amazing!! I before thought it would be absolutley awful to hit him like that but he didn't seem at all bothered about that, maybe slightly confushed to start but in the end kind of like he was relieved and he seemed quite happy with the result!
In my excitement I forgot tonight when he came in we also had our first mutual groom!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I was brushing him and on his back he has an old bite which was there when I bought him. It has completley heald and gone now but because it was so big there was a huge scab and because his coat is so think it's still a bit scurfy so I was itching it to try and get it out and he really liked it so I started scratching him all on his quaters and his back and he groomed me back!!!!!!! Bought tears to my eyes!!!! I know that sounds sad but he's never showed any interest in me before apart from trying to bite or kick me. He was so gental aswell!! I'm just so happy!!!!!!!

And yes I will be ready with my lunge whip for anybody who trys to mug me!!

[Alibi]

Well done!

Just be aware that he'll try it again with a bit extra and then if your persistant and stand up to him, he'll probably try it again with bit extra on top of the bit extra. Like Harry said consistency is the way.

With my baby everything seemed to get a little worse before if got a whole lot better - it was just his way of saying but i might be able to get away with it - then its "oops no i can't!"

Did you get anywhere with Janet by the way?

[Harry Hobbes]

Tor&Warrior,

Let's review some applicable concepts and principles:
[list=1][*]"Dangerous Behaviors" - Kicking, rearing, striking, and biting in proximity to people. These must be resolved, else someone will get hurt; or worse. People or horse, there's no logical reason to tolerate dangerous behaviors. In addition, should a horse do the wild thing and seriously hurt or kill someone, then the local magistrate gets involved, and those folks typically get terminal with their decisions. Training the horse avoids all of this kind of trouble.
[*]"Mindset" - Your actions have indicated that you have adopted an appropriate mindset; that of "going to war" if need be. This is entirely appropriate because of your inherent disadvantage of physical size and slowness relative to the horse. And it's something that a horse can understand. Remember the look in his eye?

Success requires that you make up for his advantages with psychological "strength". Your adoption of a "this behavior is unacceptable and I'm going to war" mental outlook/attitude is one of your "equalizers", if not to your advantage. This attitude drives your commitment.
[*]"Tool Handling" - Your use of the lunge whip, or any other tool is appropriate (Dressage whip) to assist in "equalizing" the physical strength disparity. However, you should practice, and get good with it: manual dexterity, handiness, etc. Think of it this way: you'd want to be very handy with it to fend off potential muggers, right?

Also, never hold a sharp/hazardous object in your hands in proximity to the horse, except to complete a specific task, then put the object away. You do not want to get into a situation where you go into automatic mode to correct his sudden disrespect with any sharp/hazardous object in your hand. Your choice of a lunge whip was an excellent choice, as it's exceedingly difficult to physically hurt a horse with it (unless you try very, very hard; and I know you won't).
[*]"Accuracy" - Practice getting accurate with your corrections on a fence post or other target, either with tools or your hands. Should you need to contact Vinny with a tool, you must stay clear of his head at all costs. The remainder of his body is fair game. Pre-select in your mind where you will apply correction should he require correction in advance; think ahead and you'll be prepared. Corrections should never physically damage any horse; but, if you do not think/plan ahead, you may make a mistake.
[*]"Safety" - Safety is paramount, for the horse and for all humans in proximity. If it's better to run away, then do so; then you can be ready to train/correct another day, when you can do so safely.[/list=1]

I never have to go to war any more because I learned how to go to war early. You'll find that once the horses figure out that you're determined to be dominate, they generally avoid the test.

It's not being mean nor "unfair"; there's nothing personal and no hard feelings. It is that I'm the boss (the leader/dominate of the herd). End of discussion. (The "good ole girl" Montana horsewoman who taught me the basics was a great role model; and her horses are exceedingly well-behaved and happy.)

Again, outstanding on your part!

Best regards,
Harry