Poll:Is it okay to jump with a standing martingale

[Demson]

I said gadgets shouldn't be used and explained what I meant by gadgets. At no time did I say Training aids shouldn't be used.

I won't argue on here people don't like that. if you want to continue your outburst do so by PM

[Esther.D]

I really think this should be dropped now otherwise I will have to close the thread....

[RachelEvent]

When I refer to gadgets I refer to them as something used to force a horse to do something not help in its training. Someonewho uses a standing martingale to jump is doing so to help themselves not the horse.

I think that defining 'gadgets' like this gets confusing - many people seem to think that the gadgets they use (eg. draw reins) ARE helping their horses training. Even though they may well not be. Martingales are not often referred to as training aids anymore, as people generally don't think of them in this way. Many people use martingales when jumping as a 'just in case' or something to help the rider (theres enough to be concentrating on while jumping, without having to regulate the head carriage). I don't think that this is neccessarily a bad thing: When I showjump, I ride in just a french link snaffle with a cavesson noseband. When I go cross country, I use a running martingale too. This isn't because I want to train my horse, it's because I want something there JUST IN CASE things go wrong, and to help prevent a dangerous circumstance. My horse is well schooled enough, that in a safe environment, I trust him to stay responsive and calm, but out on a xc course, unpredictable things happen, and you don't want to find yourself approaching an upright gate with the horse stargazing, for safety's sake. If my horse was schooled to perfection, perhaps he would never do this. But perfection in training doesn't quite exist, even at olympic level.

The thing about martingales, is that they are different to training aids in that they lie dormant until the horse puts his head VERY high. It is this fact that makes me think of them as an emergency measure rather than something for a training purpose - they certianly don't attempt to teach a horse to stay on the bit. Of course, use has to be sensible - I think that they are justified for safety cross country, and on a horse who occasionally throws his head - schooling can be ongoing. WHen they are used on horses who's heads are permenantly fighting against them, OF COURSE I think it's wrong, and of course it's obvious how they built up the incorrect muscles by fighting against them. Use in this way can't be justified.

why would you choose a standing over running?

There are pros and cons to both running and standing martingales. Whilst running martingales allow for more adjustment of tension, they have problems in that firstly, they can alter the riders contact on the reins and remove the straight line from bit to hand. Secondly, they act on the bit itself rather than the noseband - whilst acting on the bit is a better replica of the riders aid, it can cause problems when jumping if the horse threw his head up violently he can become confused thinking the rider has pulled at his mouth - which could cause him to rush more or to refuse to jump or similar.

A standing martingale is more fixed, but does not interfere with rein aids, and acts on the nose which is possibly slightly less confusing for the horse - ie, the rider could be using the bit to steady and turn, while the standing martingale acts on the nose to lower the horses head. Fitting them correctly is very important, their use is better in a horse which has a tendancy to occasionally 'turn upside down' if fitted correctly, they lie dormant for a big range of motion of the horses head and neck and only come into action if the horse raises his head to a dangerous level.

I repeat, martingales are a short term measure, which do not aid the horses training. However, they can help the rider without actively hindering the horse's progress.

Back to the original question - I wouldn't personally jump with a standing martingale, but I know people that do, and I don't think it's totally unacceptable. In the case of a horse that only very occasionally will turn inside out, I think that they can be a useful safety measure. The correct fitting is very, very, important however.

[MeMe]

Oh dear I expected more from NR, than for this to turn into a major slanging match, resembles the site ALF is talking about on this thread!

Im afraid Im for 'gadgets' seeing as that is what every aid is called then!

But Im for them in the correct circumstances and used in the correct way for the correct thing, and who are we to judge another member and decide that something is not right for them nor their horse?

We can disagree thats fine, but we do not to be condescending in our attitudes, and seem like we are looking down our noses, that is to frequent on other sites.

I personally always insist my horses are hacked in a running martingale, fitted correctly it will play no part if the horse isent spinning around in circles!

But its there as a precaution if needed, and I've seen many a horse stick its head up and run, and not because of rider, out on the roads they can be scared by anything, as Im sure ALF will agree, being heavily into driving, Im sure she has been there and done that!

But I "personally" feel that roads are not to be messed with and the extra precaution causes no harm if applied in the correct manner to which it was intended.

Also MOST, I say most as some obviously are not! Most strive to improve the situation for example Shandy84, she is working to down grade her horse with as little as possible.

I work my horse in as little as is possible for the activity he is doing, sometimes its appropriate to use something.

But on the topic, I dont agree with jumping in Standing Martingales, not to say Im right nor wrong, just my opinion, but then again that probarbly dosent count for much, but as long as Im happy and "I" think my horses are thats all I give a rats backside about.

[Elvengirl]

Great post RachelEvent, finally someone got it right when explaining standing martingale use.

I use a standing martingale on my horse as a "just in case" but that doesn't mean that without one he goes around with his head in the air. He works in a very nice outline with or without. I do not strap it on to hold his head into some sort of "fake" frame and he doesn't fight against it. When he is working on the flat and jumping, it swings from side to side and is not tight and pulling at his nose. We do dressage without one and he works correct in a snaffle and is neither tense, upside down, or unhappy. It's there because, well, say for example, we are coming into a triple combo and someones car backfires and his head goes in the air in a spook. What happens then? Without a martingale we go smashing through fences, with one, I can maintain control and get out of a dangerous situation. And yes, this has happened to someone I know who is a professional and was on a well schooled veteran horse.

Anyone who "knows" the proper mechanics of a jumping horse (ie. the bascule) will know that it is impossible for a martingale to interfere with the jump of a horse over lower fences (by lower I mean around 3 and half feet)

I'm sorry, I do not want to cause any heat and I love all the varying information on this board but I find that people get downright nasty when they talk about martingales and it's just silly. A standing martingale should NEVER tie down a horses head and should ONLY come into effect when a horse is "stargazing" as rachelevent put it, and putting himself and the rider at risk of a bad accident.

If someone feels the need to insult other riders because they use a martingale by saying they are "unable" to ride, they had better get the facts correct because it makes them look ignorant. If a rider chooses to not use a martingale for whatever reason, that's fine, but undermining those that do use one properly is just rude and cruel.

Keep in mind that there are FAR worse gadgets in the horse world than a martingale and I think we should be worrying about those.

[Wally]

With that I think we have all learned a great deal, I am now closing this thread.