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  #1  
Old 30th Apr 2006, 07:23 PM
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Question Chocolate dun??

Our shetland is marked in her passport as brown, but since her winter coat has come our (we've only owned her over the winter) I'm rethinking it.

I haven't got any decent pics of her at the moment, but shes This colour with bay-like legs (legs changing to black) I didn't think much of this, but looking, she has a stripe?!? Is there anything I should look for to see if she is dun?
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Old 30th Apr 2006, 07:41 PM
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anyone?
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Old 30th Apr 2006, 07:53 PM
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What colour are her parents? She would need a dilute gene I think to be chocolate. She could just be a bay or she could be liver, she can also show a dorsal stripe without being a true dun.

Chev has a wonderful Welsh liver chestnut mare who has a false dorsal stripe, without a photograph it is difficult to tell for sure. I suspect if she has black legs she is bay bit with a false dorsal. You really need Chev.

I posted about Choc. dun in a previous thread relating to Spanish horses.
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Old 1st May 2006, 08:42 AM
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She's a rescue pony (lived in a yard behind a chip shop and was fed scrap ) so we don't know her parents colour. I'll try and get some pictures, but the camera's not working at the moment
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Old 1st May 2006, 12:36 PM
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get a photo up- I like Chocolate duns!
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Old 1st May 2006, 12:43 PM
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I will ASAP, but, as i said, the camera doesn't work at the moment, and we live too far away for me to stroll into town and get a new one!
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Old 2nd May 2006, 12:51 PM
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Chocolate dun is one of those wierd terms that you won't actually find a definite definition of I think what most people would describe as chocolate dun would be seal brown or dark bay with dun.

So; first step is to work out whether either of your mare's parents were dun. If neither were dun, then your mare is definitely not dun.

If at least one parent is dun, then you need to look at your mare and see if she shows any factors associated with dun.

Duns *always* have at least diluted body colour (the colour will be diluted to a flat, muted shade) and a dorsal stripe. This is where is starts to get slightly more complicated...

Dorsal striping on a true dun is different to teh stripes you get on non-duns. This is Tia, my liver chestnut mare (and yes, I know this pic makes her look bay. She has a bright ginger winter coat adn very dark points, but she really is liver chestnut) showing her 'dorsal stripe'. It looks like what most people would class as a dorsal stripe (bearing in mind this is winter coat and pretty furry) but it is not a true dorsal stripe for a couple of reasons.



Note first off how the edges are not pin-sharp. On a dun, they would be. The colour 'runs' from the stripe into the body colour - on a dun, that wouldn't happen.

Next, if you look closely, you can see that even though the stripe runs down into the head of the tail, it doesn't conitnue down the dock - on a dun, it would.

The body colour is not diluted. That's the most obvious giveaway.

The hair at the top of Tia's tail is not diluted or frosted - on a dun, there will be lighter, grey or silvery hair at the tope of the tail.

Tia's stripe only appears on her winter coat. Her summer coat is so dark this is hidden; on a dun, that wouldn't happen. Stripes, masks, shoulder and leg barring are all clearly visible all year round, and not subject to changing with coat changes or sun-fade.

Striping on a dun is the same colour as undiluted body colour. Imagine it like this; dun dilutes the coat colour as sunlight fades fabric. If you cover parts of the fabric up, the sun doesn't fade it - so you get patches or stripes of the original, unfaded colour. Dun striping is a bit like that; stripes of undiluted base colour. Countershading, like Tia's stripe is in reality, is caused by the addition of darker hair, so will appear darker than the base colour.

Ok, so that's striping covered...

Duns usually have other characteristics too; their legs are often darker but mane and tail (even black manes and tails) will usually be diluted to a greater extent. Black pigment is diluted as well as red; on a horse with black legs, although the legs won't be diluted to the same extent as the body, they won't be undiluted black.

They will usually have streaks of lighter hair on the outside edge of mane and tail, and often have pale hair inside the ears or on the ear tips.

They often have leg barring - again, this is base colour and does not alter or fade with the seasons.

They can also have wither stripes, dark markings on the shoulder, and cobwebbing on the face.

Just about every dun factor marking is immitated by 'countershading' in the absence of the dun gene; horses with primitive markings or countershading can do an incredibly good job of mimicking dun markings. But there are differences, and you can usually tell them apart through looking closely and watching for changes over a season even when they are very convincing!
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Old 2nd May 2006, 07:49 PM
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That took a couple of reafds to understand! I PROMISE to get some pics up ASAP!
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  #9  
Old 2nd May 2006, 08:18 PM
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this is stan. he is registered at a chocolate dun with the connemara pony society. I only know one of his parents colours and that was black. not sure of his mum however Chev had him as a smokey buckskin. (for all i know his mum could have been dun)

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Old 3rd May 2006, 09:44 AM
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Stan isn't genetically dun for one simple reason; the dun gene doesn't exist in Connemaras So neither Stan nor his mum can be dun, because they are Connies, and the breed has no dun gene to make them dun.

Connemaras do however carry the cream gene, which is what causes buckskins and palominos (on a bay and chestnut base respectively). Buckskins are bays with one cream gene; the cream dilutes the red body colour but not black pigment in the coat, so you get the typical golden body with black points that most UK breed societies still call 'dun'. That's what colour Stan is - but in his case, he also has a modifier called sooty (or countershading) at work. Sooty adds black hair to a bay body, which is why Stan's body is so dark over the more golden shade underneath.

Stan's genetics work like this;

first, he has a black base. Unmodified, he'd be a black horse.

Next, he has agouti - that the gene that casues bay. Agouti restricts the black to the points, to create a bay base. Stan is now bay.

Then, he got cream. The cream dilutes the red pigment in his coat to gold - you can see that dark gold shade clearly around his throat, flanks, belly and lower shoulder. UK breed societies often mis-identify that colour as dun (or golden dun) - but it has nothing to do with the dun gene, and is in fact buckskin.

On top of all that, he has 'countershading' - that makes him sooty. Countershading adds dark or black hair in a pattern starting at the top of the horse and extending down his sides. It could be as little as a faint dorsal type stripe or as much as Stan has, but it's a natural camouflage technique in most horses. Countershading effectively flattens a horse in its natural environment; it adds artificial shadow to the top of the horse where there would be none, and so lightens the underparts, which would normally be in shadow. It makes a horse less visible to predators.

Stan has absolutely no dun characteristics; he does have a diluted body colour, but it's the wrong type of dilution for dun. He has none of the dun factor markings that the gene causes.

The Connemara society doesn't yet recognise the genetics that cause the colours they allow; what they call dun is bay with cream, not dun. It's buckskin. The same cream gene causes palomino when it appears on a chestnut horse; the society allows registration of both palomino and dark eyed cream (whihc is light palomino). They refuse registration of 'blue-eyed-cream' - which is a horse with two cream dilutes... because they don't realise that the blue-eyed cream is in reality a palomino, buckskin or smoky black with an extra copy of cream.
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Old 3rd May 2006, 09:49 AM
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chev i understood completely when you explained that. I was just pointing out that breed societies dont seem to recognise buckskin as a colour. I dont think the Dun horse and pony society does either because i was approached by them to register him. I trust that what chev says is right because it all makes sense!
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Old 19th May 2006, 08:04 PM
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Well im not bothered what colour stan is, hes lovely! Iv got a connemara too, who im just starting to compete! She's so talented, can you give me any tips?
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Old 19th May 2006, 08:05 PM
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suzipoo what are you competeing her in?
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  #14  
Old 20th May 2006, 01:54 PM
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hopefully mountain and moorland and workers! here she is......
lil smally.jpg
lilly lo.jpg
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  #15  
Old 21st May 2006, 01:42 PM
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aww she is lovely
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