Strong Mouth/Necked Cob!!!

[domane]

Oh I am starting to lose heart....

Cherry has recently had her back and saddle checked (thanks Poohsmate! Yet another fan for the club ) - her saddle has been tilting back which has been putting pressure on her back. Anyway, a rear raiser pad has levelled it up nicely, and hopefully temporarily, so now the weight in the saddle is distributing correctly . We are doing lots of long-lining, working long and low to build up her topline and back muscles which will hopefully have her saddle sitting better as well as improving her natural carriage. She has had some treatments too and we are doing daily carrot stretches and leg stretches (to some odd looks from fellow livery bods!) . Cherry really seems to have improved from these - she is tracking up beautifully, sometimes even over-reaching now if I trot on too loose a rein and she feels much more free. I have started feeding her (2 days ago) some Dengie with a higher protein level for muscle development and I'm sure overall she feels so much better - she seems really affectionate with me at the moment so it's all good.

BUT......

She seems to have got incredibly strong in the head and neck!! She has always been strong - when I first got her she was in a dutch gag but she leaned heavily on this so I reverted to a snaffle for schooling and a kimblewick for hacking out. Prior to her back diagnosis I had been persevering in schooling her in a snaffle. Before all this came to light she had just started to be lighter in the mouth (slightly) and her lateral work was improving. Now I find that in the snaffle she is so much MORE stronger than before... I tried schooling the other night and frankly from her shoulders forward it was like an ironing board in the snaffle. I swapped to her kimblewick and she was a changed horse! Supple, responsive and lovely to ride. But I don't WANT to school her in the kimblewick. I feel like I have made great progress in one area, but taken steps back in another. A good-rider friend rode her last night for the first time in a couple of months and she agreed that she has got a lot stronger!! She doesn't bolt BUT she is forward going. I really think she enjoys being ridden...

Here's an example... in the snaffle... if I trot her round the outside of the school, I keep my outside rein fairly tight and "milk" the inside rein to try to bring her head down, whilst using my legs GENTLY to push her into her bridle right? Well when I do that she just runs faster and faster and her head gets higher and higher... she is very leg-responsive and she seems to get confused - sort of "what do you want? Your leg tells me to go faster yet your hands tell me to slow down" so she just runs through the pressure and although I have developed good muscle tone, I just can't find the right balance of hand and leg. I have had some lessons but I just can't afford more at the moment.

I KNOW that cobs are heavy at the front, their strength is in their neck and shoulders as they are designed for pulling. I have done serpentines, circles, transitions, long-lining (admittedly that's quite new), lungeing with and without side reins (but she doesn't bend into the circle when being lunged - she sticks her head OUT if anything and that has never shown any signs of improving) and I'm just feeling very despondent at the moment. Perhaps I should throw the towel in on trying to school her and just revert to be an (un)happy-hacker???? She's 15 so maybe she is just too set in her ways....

Sorry for rambling

PS ETA: I borrowed a 16.3 lad at the weekend and the difference in the flexibility of his neck and the response to my hands was totally amazing... It was like guiding a feather!!!

[jowyles]

I can sympathise you I have exactly the same problems with dexter, I have just started more serious schooling and changed to two reins on his pelham. He can lean heavily on the bit but I have almost erased that problem apart from when we were being lazy. In the double reins he goes well but takes an awful long time to come into work in them when he does it he does go really nicely. But he is soo heavy in my hands, even out hacking! I treid to jump once and he just went straight through it, usually he is very clean. I'm going to have a few lessons soon so hopefully I will then be able to prove but don't worry your not alone! Bloody cobs!

[Colonel]

I was going to be posting something about this.

When I did a Dressage test about 3 weeks ago in the comments were "heavy hands".

I want to know how to make Gabrielle lighter in the mouth as I have her in a French Link and I have to use nearly all my upper body to bring her back. I have tried schooling with half halts in walk and trot and in canter she still gets progressively faster even with half halts (which I have to use all my upper body for!). What can be done please?

I have also tried to be softer in the hands but she doesn't take any notice.

If I put her in her double bridle totally different story! But at pre Novice level we are only allowed to complete tests in a snaffle.

Bry locks her neck, it was one of the first things my new RI noticed on our lesson last week.

When Cherry gets strong instantly put her on a circle, sit deep in the saddle when you sit and pull your inside shoulder back and raise your inside hand as high as you have to go to guide her. Use the outside rein as a 'brake' half halting her with it untill she listens.

Keep her on that circle untill she slows down and if the neck goes rigid put her on a smaller cirlce really encouraging her forwards untill she softens.

Bry is like a different horse in the school, she's still in the kimblewick but our aim is to get her back in a snaffle once she is listening to me more.

Hope that helps

[eventerbabe]

lots of transitions will get her off leaning on your hands.

Just an observation, but it's pointless fiddling to get this outline unless she's really working with her back end. Again, transitions and circles will help this. When her back end is working, only then ride forward into a relatively firm contact. none of this fiddling malarky, that just gives you a false outline if she really is working correctly then you should also feel her lift through her back.

[teabiscuit]

where is cvb when you need her. i think she said that a horse isn't stiff/heavy in the mouth it's stiff in it's body- sorry cvb for hopelessly misquoting you

i've been working through this same problem with fin, he's 16.1hh 3/4 tb 1/4 shire 10 years old, had him all his life so any problems are down to me

we started very much like you have with cherry, got him happy in his back, fit and well - that was our first step.

then we worked on getting him off my leg, he was very dead to the leg, we didn't even think about outline (and not much about steering either) etc, we nearly left the school on many occasions because he used to totally ignore my steering

once he'd go off my leg, started asking him for a shorter outline, not on the bit, just not so long and stretched out as he was used to going

then the bit that really is helping, and where we're at now, lots and lots of lateral work.

first we learned turn on the forhand, then turn about the forhand, then leg yeilding, shoulder in, all in walk, trying it in trot now.

the aim is to get his hocks under him, steer him with my legs into my hands through the lateral work, so that he has to carry himself

he isn't allowed to lean on my hands
for my part i have to stay very soft and supple through a definate contact, which i found very hard to do

also lots of hill work and transitions helps

this process has been going on since last october with weekly lessons with my RI who is a BHSI, i travel for an hour there and an hour back for a 1 hr lesson, so i need to be commited

my brill RI let me ride her advanced dressage horse too so that i could get a feel for what i wnated from fin which helped such a lot
i couldn't ride one side of this bloomin horse but she taught me so much.

this is after me riding 26 odd years, so don't you dare lose heart yet woman, you're only just starting !

sorry to ramble, good luck
xxx

[jenren!!]

Perhaps you're working too hard. It may be that, ok, you have done alot of work with her on the ground and she is improving alot, but dont expect it to work out in the saddle, yet. It's often quite hard to transfer the work you've done on the ground into the saddle. Is she strong to long-line? If not it may be you're holding her too tight, perhaps a 'tug of war' is occurring, when she pulls you pull back. You need to look at yourself and feel if anything you are doing is helping this strong behaviour. Perhaps if you softened your reins, and let her stretch down, she may relax.

The problem is, the work you have done on the ground will have created alot of good muscle and will have created a nice topline, but as soon as the weight of a rider is added there is still more work to do as Cherry has to get used to using her new top line to help her carry you better, so i think you need to do more work building it up mounted also. She is probably running away from your contact because you are confusing her - you are asking her to round however she doesnt understand beacause yes, she may have the right muscle, but just because she has the right muscle doesnt mean she knows exactly how to use it. She does however, know how to use it against you. The best thing to do is, when you start to ride, let her stretch down. Dont fiddle with your reins, lengthen them and keep your legs still. Let her stretch the whole of her top line. Then, start to use your legs to make her pace out. You'll find you are asking her to use her back end, but letting her front end out so she can stretch her neck. Once she is working low in her frame, then try to collect her up. Gently sponge your outside rein, and squeeze with your legs, try and lift her head back 'up'. It may take a while, but the back end always comes first and if you can get her working properly with her back end first, the head will come on its own.

Also, always remember to do lots of transitions, circles and serpentines as these will strengthen her back legs and her top line further.

Good luck

Jenny xx

[domane]

A friend commented last night that I try too hard.... I don't think it's Cherry, I think I'm just a cr*p rider... I need to learn more....but thanks for all your comments....

I will keep trying....

[jenren!!]

Of course you're not. Chin up girl you ride Cherry well. Its just a case of adapting your riding to her that's all. To me that show the points of a good rider.

Jenny xx

[domane]

One more thing I have just thought of....

I can ride Cherry round the canter track at walk, trot AND canter, with absolutely no rein contact (can only go in one direction ) and she will do all three with her head right down, whiskers on the ground - she would surely need to round her back to do that right? (That was when I noticed she was over-reaching "click" "click" and it stopped when I resumed rein contact)

So how come I can't keep her rounded when I take up a contact??? Do you think she is used to my old way of riding her and is resisting because it's easier for her?? She goes beautifully for other people....

[teabiscuit]

finn will do that too,
i cantered him round the school quite happily with the reins on his neck to show my RI exactly what you are saying about Cherry

as soon as i picked up a contact, he got tense, so did i it was a vicious circle.

other people could get him in an outline, i could if i pushed and pulled him into it, but i wanted something else
i wanted it to come easy, harmony i wanted, not fight.

so i started again.

it's worth it, he's twice the horse he was and i'm much happier not fighting all the time.

it does your head in though, in a good way

[Nookster]

On your canter tracks seems like you aren't trying as hard as you would when you are schooling - your brain isn't fixed onto having to have the horse going how you think it should. So on the canter track it happens naturally.

As for picking up the contact - your horse is reacting to what its used to and that could be the action of the bit that they had before - they remember pain.
My boy was ridden in some harsh bits and was and still have be the same and trys to prevent before it happens. She sees you taking up contact and she doesn't feel comfortable to work like that anymore as she wants to evade what she remembers from the contact.

I used to use this technique. Spongy reins and leg - come on give me an outline. Its just false as eventerbabe said.

I stopped all schooling as i was getting myself over paranoid. Went to hacking and in time hacking while schooling. I do nothing now but use my seat to engage my boy and have he works naturally.

there is such a thing as being over bent in my eyes. Horses shouldn't have their chins stuck to their necks - watch others as they ride and you should see and nice curvey outline from bum to head - but not over done and natural

Have you read Mary Wanless - ride with you mind?

[KateWooten]

She's stiff in the neck, right ? So you need to do lots and lots of stretching and suppling exercises at the front end. I have a very similar horse to work with at the moment - 11 years old, and she has always been ridden forward - she's a hunter - and she's highly resistant to any suggextions of mine that we slow down, soften and bend.

Lots of lateral flexion, lots of 'very bendy circles' actually I'm finding is better for a forward-going horse than the lateral flexion standing still. All you do is ask for a circle - a small one - maybe only 10 ft in diameter but you're not looking at the circle really, you're ocussed on the bend in the body, and the neck. You just use the inside rein and legs, ask her head to bend far more than her body - ask, release, ask, release ... when she gives you a good try, release and walk out straight for a few paces, then circle the other way. The action of your hand can be really exaggerated - hand at hip to ask for more bend, hand at knee to release ...over and over.

The point of it is that she really understands 'pressure-release' and to practice stretching. Typically with a young horse, you do all of this lateral flexion at a halt and I thought that was a prerequisite until recently. If you ttry it at a halt with an older horse... they tend to get frustrated before they get the point - it's not an easy exercise for them.

The other thing I had to do with my mare is get her out of the bit altogether. She'd developed such a habit of leaning on it and pulling, I've abandoned it and just ride her ina rope halter. Oh, and I had to promise to only ever pick up one rein at a time until she's really listening and really soft. That takes a bit of a leap of faith for a good english rider, I know, it's counter to everythign we've been taught - but a horse can't brace against one rein - so for a good few weeks, if I pick up one rein, the other has to be slack.

Ride alot on no reins at all - even with a horse that wants to run off all the time - well especially a horse that wants to run off ! She needs to quit pulling because she quits pulling, not because she's always held back ... so throw the reins away, and trot on ... if she gets even slightly too fast, shut her right down again immediately using one rein to bend her to a halt (obviously, practice that over and over again in walk first so the motion is fluid and relaxed). Again that takes a leap of faith - but the last thing you should do with a horse that can brace against two reins, is pull back to slow down - that just becomes a pulling battle.

I did the trotting off and bending to a halt for the first time with my mare yesterday. The first time you spin her to a stop, takes a bit of nerve - I grabbed a chunk of mane - the key is to do it early.. and often. We did 'ok, trot, trot, trot .. aaaannnnnnnnnnd stop' ... over and over again. With the stop, hold the one rein until all feet are still, neck ios stretched out and round so her nose is near your toe ... and hold it til she feels 'soft' ... till she pushes her nose just a little more to create slack in that rein. You will have to have done some lateral flexing at a halt so that she knows if she just 'gives' a little more stretch, then you'll release the rein. After the first 2 or 3 stops, I was able to trot my mare about with the reins draped and she didn't speed up and take off. I don't believe in 'quick fixes' .. but because this one-rein approach really gets at the heart of the problem - the braciness against a straight pull - the change is quite suprisingly quick - I've only had 4 rides on my mare, and the difference is very noticeable.

Hmmm... sorrry ... wrote an essay ! Hope it is relevant for you - I know it's not the traditional english approach - this is more the western way of working. I'm <<almost>> sure that it will lead right back into a more english way of riding .. she has her first dressage show next month !

[KateWooten]

oh ... I just read the last three posts or so and realise my 'helpful advice' might not be quite applicable .. oh well.. it probably helped me to write it down more than it helped anyone else to read it ... your horse already goes just fine on a slack rein... but braces against contact - I still think the answer is lots of bending and stretching her head and neck ... maybe th stretchy bendy circles are the way forward because then you do have a contact and it can't be braced against ?

Cheers Kate, that helped me even if it didn't help Jane!!

Seriously Jane, I think Bry and Cherry went to the same school.

Bry has real issues with contact, to her, the tighter the contact the faster the gait.
I've also been working on dropping my reins and then picking them up and using my seat to keep her at the same pace even though I am fiddling with the reins and picking up contact then dropping it. Confuses the hell out of her but she needs to realise just because I have a contact does not mean that she can get faster. I'm not pulling on her mouth or anything.

Also another thing my RI said to me was don't get in a tug of war with them YOU WILL NOT WIN, you have to be more tactical about it.

Each horse is different to ride and you are not a crap rider at all!!

[Sammii]

You are in no way a crap rider Domane! A crap rider doesn't admit there is something wrong going on, do they? And a crap rider wouldn't be as keen to sort it out as you! So stop putting yourself down, it'll just make the situation 100 times worse

[Tootsie4U]

Are you sure she just isnt plainly on the forehand? You said you've been doing alot of long and low. Perhaps you're thinking its long and low but to her its actually a ticket to be lazy. (and laziness doesnt necessarily have to relate to speed)

The outside rein should not be tight. It should only keep her shoulders straight - therefore only come into play if she's popping her shoulder. A constant tight rein can end you up with a leaning horse.

Do your long and low exercise, but try this instead. After a nice warm up, offer her a long rein (not loose, but not tight) at rising trot. Hold your rise for a second longer than you would and ask her for energy. Stay centered, dont lean forward. Dont fiddle with your reins other than to ask her to SOFTEN on the bit - not to bring her head down.

It is impossible for a horse to run around with its back hollow and head in the air if 1) the rider isnt confining the horse at its front end 2) if the horse is truly pushing from behind and 3) if the rider has an independant seat (all so long as tack fits and horse is conformationaly sound). So this exercise should take care of her stress, build her back, help you as a rider, and get her to use herself properly without being on the forehand.

[HairyCob]

Ahh, Jane! Glad I'm not the only one with 'issues' at the moment

I don't have any advice, though reading the advice you've been given I've picked up some tips but just wanted to say YOU ARE NOT A CRAP RIDER!

Having said I have no advice, I will just say that having ridden Cherry , despite being a technically much worse rider than your good self, I can confirm that she is VERY strong, but I did find that she responded well to a bit of asking for 'lateral' movement- when she got a bit strong out on our hack (OK, strong to MY mind ) a couple of times I asked her for a step or two of 'leg yield'... she didn't always understand my crappy aids, but she did kind of 'pause and listen' and became a bit lighter in the hand for a few strides.

I'm probably talking rubbish, but just thought I'd put down my thoughts as I have actually ridden the gorgeous beastie

[Rips]

I haven't read through the entire thread but sometimes horses just respond to a change of bit? Maybe thats what you experienced with her going well in the snaffle for a while after changing back from a dutch gag.
If I change my bit, say from a jointed snaffle to a straightbar the first few days Mo will be all mouthy and receptive of it bt then it gradually wears off and has less effect until you change again. Not of course saying you should do this, but that may be what you experience with the kimblewick.


I school in a snaffle and compete in a dutch gag (2nd ring) works perfect because I do both half anf half. If though, for some reason I didn't get to a few comps and found myself schooling for 2/3weeks instead I would find her a bit strong in the snaffle by the end of it.

I know myself, this is probably because she truly isn't 100% happy with either but if its not broke...