Hoof problems - What would you do?

Thanks senjj, I am in Reading area, Berkshire.

Thanks for all the great responses and advice, will give an update shortly about what has been happening over the weekend.
 
horse on my yard has just had his shoes take off due to crumbling feet which have gotten so bad he looses shoes within a day of being shod.

they are looking at a min of 8 weeks before he can possibly be shod again.
 
I totally sympathise with you and your poor hoss, bad feet are a heartbreaking nightmare. the weather is wrecking my boys feet and in theory i should be going barefoot but i just can't bring myself to put him through the pain i know he would be in if i tried, not yet anyway.

i dont really have anything to add, but i hope it works out for you both, best of luck :)


ditto Roofio - I'll be interested to see how this turns out. My boy (TB) is getting crumbly feet too. I've got him on farrier's formula, and I apply cornucrescine every other day. I dont know what I'm doing wrong - I've been blaming weather, and there seems to be evidence of hoof problems in the past according to the farrier. He's only had his shoes on 5 weeks and I need the farrier again. The nail holes are crumbly and I'm really not sure what to do for the best. My farrier doesn't believe in barefoot, so maybe I need someone else... :confused:
 
Water and Hooves

Sorry to join this late but I've been away.

There seem to be some very contradictory, and if as a scientist I might say very unscientific comments about the effects of water on hooves.

A couple of examples to start with. As you all will no doubt know horses evolved principally as creatures of arid areas. They may be hot, as in dessert areas or very cold as in central - Eastern Europe but they are all dry.

If you take a horse or donkey to the tropics they soon have their feet fall off from various infections into the softened horn. The issue is water not heat as this doesn't usually happen in desserts. This happens more slowly in cooler climates but it can happen fast enough if its wet and warm, as perhaps we are seeing this year here. Certainly there seem to be far more problems than in the last couple of years.

I said above this doesn't usually happen in desserts. Well it didn't until about 15 years ago when large scale water desalination installations allowed certain wealthy thoroughbred stables in the Middle East to start having some relatively green (and wet) pastures because they looked rather nice. The horses were on and off these areas with their feet swelling and then drying out and all sorts of previously rare problems started to appear. I don't know anyone who now thinks it a coincidence. The introduction of water was the problem.

Another thing to bear in mind about damage to hooves is that it can take a long time to appear. The damage we are seeing grow through today may be due to insults that happened months ago. Its very risky to correlate what you are seeing today with the recent weather conditions. Drying for example may just show up cracks that formed some time ago in wetter conditions but weren't apparent because of the relatively swollen state of the horn. OK wetting them again or using moisturising creams may make the damage less apparent, but its just camouflage, it isn't resolving the underlying problem.

As for water or moisture getting rid of bacteria, well I don't want to sound impolite but lets just say that bacteria don't grow at all well in dry conditions they need the water. In fact they really like the wet swollen horn as it makes it easier for the enzymes they exude into the horn matrix to work and dissolve the horn so the bacteria can absorb the predigested peptide soup they make.

A couple of further points. The long extracts published earlier on this thread were originally published by a farrier, Bill Mayfield, but were essentially written by Colin Reeves of Keratex. The reference link is below
http://www.wisconsinwalkinghorse.org/articles/harden_hoofs.html

As some of you will be aware Colin Reeves has been very anti the barefoot philosophy, basically I think because Keratex makes hooves far too hard and brittle if its overused.

EnduranceGB barefoot 2004 champion Les Spark has extensively trialled an alternative product which he claims has resulted in him having no competitive veterinary failures for damaged hooves in the last three years. And he rides a serious number of miles. Have a look at the barefoot sections of his website, he has loads of useful experience and is very friendly and helpful if you care to contact him, try the link below.
http://www.fnesaddles.com/Hooves-Barefoot.shtml
 
Re the front shoes off back shoes on thing, from what you've said I would be looking at it the other way round. He's doing ok on his backs when shod therefore he's more likely to do well on his backs unshod.

The fact that he's lame and sore in front is worrying. Why is he lame in shoes? Is the cracking enough to make him lame or is there something else going on? Laminitis? (yes TBs can get laminitis) Imbalance?

I don't see how you can keep him in shoes if he's losing them madly and cracking and chipping. You will need hoof boots though from the moment the shoes are taken off as it would be unfair to expect him to cope without them. You may find that your trimmer can sell or lend you a pair as you may find he needs a different size in the future.

Have you decided what you're going to do? Have you got in touch with a trimmer?
 
just a quickie to say my horse is currently shod behind, barefoot in front so if thats the way thats suggested to proceed, don't worry too much :)
 
From someone who's been there....

TB feet, constant wet field last winter. No obvious disintegration because no shoes, but her hooves and soles became very soft, and all she was doing was 30 min in the sand school once a day with the rest spent out at grass. They were so soft they trimmed themselves all winter - there was nothing for the farrier to trim, he just did the frog whenever it started to peel. I have since read a very interesting article that links constantly wet, saturated hooves to laminitis via the damage the constant wet does to the internal structure of the hoof. Basically everything becomes weak and weakly attached. Eventually, that's exactly what happened to her. She became footy at first on stony ground because her feet were soft, but not really bad. Then it got worse and turned into the beginnings of laminitis. Luckily it was caught before it became really bad but it took a long time before they were healed. We had a barefoot guy out (UKNHCP school but also a farrier) and he said that basically her hooves needed time to regrow and sort themselves out. Even now, with the regrowth most of the way down the hoof, she's grass sensitive, something she NEVER was before. You used to be able to turn her out into knee high grass, 24/7 and she would be absolutely fine. Now she wears a muzzle, is out daytime only and on sparse grazing.

What was important at the time was getting her hooves out of the constant wet. They hardened within days once she was in, and then began to sort themselves out. If you turn out a horse, shoeless and without boots etc to protect it, where the horn is crumbling due to the wet conditions, it isn't going to help. The shoes while on help prevent too much wear underneath, without them, the hoof can become very short (hers did). At least that's how it was explained to me.

Just to add - if really footy in front I would bring in NOW and keep in for a few days on hay only, no treats, no sugar of any kind, and check for lami. That's how my horse's lami started...
 
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Jay.O

Don't remove the shoes they will just make him sore and the feet will wear down faster. Look into supplements and specific hoof oils that can help. My horse had bad feet. I kept her shoes on and added suplements and hoof oils. Now there are no worries. Try that before doing anything drastice like removing the shoes.

Bronya
You forgot to mention the care you give to your horses feet yourselves. That caused some mechanical laminitis. Remember its not always caused by grass. Rasping the feet incorrectly can also cause that. She is still not sensitive to grass. LEAVE HER FEET ALONE BRONYA then she will be fine.
 
Jay.O

Don't remove the shoes they will just make him sore and the feet will wear down faster. Look into supplements and specific hoof oils that can help. My horse had bad feet. I kept her shoes on and added suplements and hoof oils. Now there are no worries. Try that before doing anything drastice like removing the shoes.

I spent a year experiencing similar problems to Jay.O and shortly after i posted on this thread for the first time, ended up going barefoot using an EP. we are far from out of the woods yet, but in a month the improvement is fantastic. he is growing hoof, his frogs have improved, angles are beginning to change etc etc. a correctly managed barefoot transition would work wonders for the horse in question. if my horse can do it, with the state of his feet, then so can Jay.Os.


I have spent countless hundreds of pounds on farriery, oils, greases, moisturisers, supplements etc - none of which have been anywhere near as effective as going barefoot.

ETA - bringing personal disagreements into someone elses thread is dangerous ground and detracts from the OPs thread.
 
I have spent countless hundreds of pounds on farriery, oils, greases, moisturisers, supplements etc - none of which have been anywhere near as effective as going barefoot.

Trust me on this going barefoot will do nothing good for horses feet.
Try Formula4feet it repairs feet and can prevent laminitus.

Bronya - Prevention is better than treatment if you are doing anything to your horses feet don't. If what horselover73 says is true and you do incorrectly rasp your horses feet. Get a farrier in to do it correctly.

Dizzy x
 
My horse's feet usually wear down on her own when in work. All I do is neaten up the edges and even the road wear (where it gets longer on the inside of the hoof due to the camber of the road) when she's doing roadwork. If it gets beyond that the farrier/barefoot guy (depending on what needs doing) does them. Ever tried trimming a horse's hoof with a rasp? It is VERY hard work. You can't do more than remove a few mm to even things out without nippers, and I don't own a pair of those or pretend to know how to use them.

I was taught to do what I do by a very good farrier around here who said it was stupid me calling him every two weeks to sort out road wear unevenness and sharp bits. He then checked them every six weeks for a year before he said it was silly him coming to do nothing and just to call him when they got long. That was four years ago. Until what happened in my post above due to them going soft etc, I carried on getting the farrier every few months, for a good three and a half years, for the farrier to say 'her feet are fine, you're doing a good job' or just to trim the frog for me. In fact I was doing next to nothing, the road trims my girl's feet!

I recently had the same farrier trim them. I haven't seen him for ages as I'd moved. Due to her being unable to do much work at the time her bars had grown overlong and were laying over. They had become uncomfy and I'd managed to get them a little bit shorter with the rasp in the meantime but that was it. He pulled them out and cut them short for me, then cut the residual wall off (about 3/4mm) because she wasn't doing roadwork at the time and wouldn't need that bit for protection. The person whose advice Horselover73 has taken on this thought that the horse's frog shouldn't touch the ground when barefoot and asked the farrier later if the hooves had been fine when he'd seen them (d'uh, wouldn't have needed him if they had been!!). He said that they were a little flared near the bottom, 'twas all. I have that in writing from him since I had to query it after that person started spreading rumours that he'd said something else. Strangely enough, the flare at the bottom is the lami damaged hoof growing out, the last couple of cm or so of it.

I highly recommend that Horselover73 has a look at: www.barefoot.com with regards to unshod horse's feet and how they should look when not lami'd and how they should be trimmed. It's exactly how this farrier has always done it - remove all the wall until it's flush with the sole, cut the bars back if they're overlong and trim the frog if it's peeling. Some horses will naturally have more concave hooves than others. TBs have notoriously flat feet, ponies much better, harder feet.

Some questions for horselover73 - you should know the answers to these before you judge anything:

1. What are layed over bars and why are they bad?
2. Why are shoes taken off during bouts of laminitis?
3. What should an unshod horse's hoof look like? (pic would be good).
4. What changes in shape would you see in a laminitic horse's hoof?
5. Why is it important that the hoof wall is the same length all the way round?
6. Why is it important the bars don't get too long?
7. Why are shod horse's hoof walls much longer than the sole when barefoot horses's hoof walls are kept flush with the sole?
8. What are the main causes of flaring and what is it?
9. In which specific disease other than laminitis is it often recommended that shoes are removed to help the horse?
10. Why do horses need shoes in the first place?
11. What is the function of the frog?
12. Why does the frog recede when a horse is shod and what are the implications for concussion when in work?
13. What is the function of frog supports and heart bar shoes in the treatment of severe laminitis?
 
Trust me on this going barefoot will do nothing good for horses feet.
Try Formula4feet it repairs feet and can prevent laminitus.

Bronya - Prevention is better than treatment if you are doing anything to your horses feet don't. If what horselover73 says is true and you do incorrectly rasp your horses feet. Get a farrier in to do it correctly.

Dizzy x


Dizzy -

I think i'll trust what i see in front of me every day when i look at my horse - formula 4 feet may well be an excellent supplement, but it didnt work for my boy and certainly didn't give me the improvements i am already seeing in front of me after less than a month.

take a look at this thread http://www.newrider.com/forum/showthread.php?t=119949 if my word is not good enough for you.

whatever personal disagreements are rumbling under here should be kept off this thread and preferably off the board all together ;)

ETA - you may also want to ask Yann, Baymare, Melanie D, Est, Bebe, Wally and anyone else who has barefoot horses before you claim that it will do 'nothing good'
 
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I can give a few examples of barefoot doing lots of good.. :p

Roxy - utter sh*te feet when shod, flat footed, literally no bars, white line disease, constantly loosing shoes, quarter cracks that wobbled.. Tried supplements with no real difference. Now sound barefoot and doing lots of work on all surfaces.

Mia - Foot so wonky it looked at first like there might be damage to the pedal bone, lame with abcesses very often. Now canters over pointy stones for fun and hasn't had an abcess in ages.

Jay - lame even on soft ground, neglected feet, loads of flare and infection. Less than 6 months later she's sound over everything.

Friend's TB sound and moving better as soon as shoes came off and she had a pedicure, nowhere near typical TB feet :)

Another TB, this time with 'typical TB feet', currently wearing boots and pads and sounder that way than she was on the rare occasion she managed to keep shoes on for more than 5 mins at a time.

Formula 4 Feet is a good supplement, and I do feed it sometimes, but its no magical cure for everything. Most of that list up there haven't ever seen F4F :)
 
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I also strongly disagree with the idea that a trim can cause mechanical laminitis. I have yet to be convinced from what I have read especially from Richard Vialls that pure mechanical laminitis exists. He sees a vast number of laminitic horses and has done a fair few disections and it seems that the foot would have to be subjected to a very invasive trim removing a huge amount of structure of the foot, plus there would have to be some form of metabolic issue there already for laminitis to occur.

Rasping round the edge of the flare and removing chips will not cause mechanical laminitis so I suggest unless you have evidence to the contrary you might want to be slightly less hysterical horselover and dizzyblonde.
 
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