Shoeing TWH vs. Quarter horse

[Rockysquirrel]

I am relatively new to riding and don't know everything there is about them. I know everyone will have a different opinion on shoeing a walking horse for show vs. shoeing about any other type horse. I would like to hear them all. From friends that have been into showing, I've been told they need the long toes on the front. From my farrier I hear that to do it properly they all get the same treatment.

Let me hear everyone else's opinions please.

 

[Jane&Ziggy]

Hi! You may not get many informed responses to this as the majority of our members are in the UK, though I know @Lollykay will have some well informed views.

As for my uninformed response, many people in the UK (including me) find the US habit of shoeing horses for show with long or heavy shoes designed to exaggerate their way of going to be abhorrent. Many people (including me) think that the question to ask is, "Does this horse, given its level of work and the condition of its feet, need shoeing at all?" And if the answer is yes, it needs shoeing, then the shoes should be chosen to help the horse as much as possible and hinder it as little as possible.

That's my two penn'orth, anyway. Anyone else?

 

[Jessey]

^^^what Jane said!
Just to add, long toes on any horse increases the stress on the tendons and joints at break over, increasing the wear and damage caused by normal life, shortening their useful life. It’s something to be avoided at all costs in my book.

 

[Lollykay]

Ohhhhh this is a sore (pun intended) subject with me.

In order to keep riding, I have owned Walking Horses since 1990. I am strictly a trail rider. I retired to the literal “Heart of Walking Horse Country” in 2003 and got my eyes opened wide to shoeing practices that should have been banned before they ever got started.

OP, I am sorry but your friends insistence on their TWH’s needing long toes to perform is the biggest bunch of B.S. to come down the interstate They either can’t ride or they are so interested in winning they will do anything to enhance the natural gait of the horse.

If they are trail riders, they simply need to have their horses’ hooves trimmed to what the hooves ask for. Use either a standard slick shoe with borium head nails for slippage, or put rim shoes on them for grip.

I have been blessed to own four Walking Horses in my lifetime. Three of them have been laid to rest, the last one is now 28. None of them ever wore keg shoes like some TWH trail riders thought their horses should wear. My horses were/are ALL trimmed according to what their hooves ask for.

I put St. Croix rim shoes with borium head nails on my horses that needed shoes. The 28 yr old is the TWH with champagne-smooth running walk people pay big bucks for. He’s been with me 26 years, has a diagnosed less-than-Grade 1 club hoof and has ridden in all kinds of terrain BAREFOOT. He never lost a beat, never came up lame.

Not one of my Walking Horses ever had issues holding their intermediate gait unless there was something structurally wrong and they needed a chiropractor.

I would have hoped this ”long toe” garbage would have fallen by the wayside by now but evidently it hasn’t. The rider needs to know how ride and the trainer needs to know how to “set” a horse in its gait with the correct work, which in turn, increases the muscle memory needed to gait. And a high caliber chiropractor should be brought in, if the horse still can’t hold its gait.

That said, some of the show people are too Interested in how high the front legs lift to appeal to the a judges eye and will do what’s needed (flat shod or big lick) to encourage that “lift” in the hopes of a win. Resorting to long toes is the least of what goes on and the flat shod show people can be every bit as guilty of using soring methods as the Lickers.

@Rockysquirrel here is a fantastic article from the newspaper in ”The heart of Walking Horse Country”. Please take a few moments ts to read it and watch these old time videos

Please note this paragraph where it starts out that achieving the smooth natural gait took MONTHS TO ACHIEVE, until someone came up with a shortcut that ruined the horses and their reputation.

Begin Quote:
”the late 1950s this smooth natural gait that took general horsemanship and months to achieve was replaced with the quick training method of "soring". The addition of pads and wedges came along as well and the combination of "soring" and the "package" with a boot or "action device" forever changed the breed. Today we are paying the price for a shortcut that created an "industry", when we could be boasting about the most popular breed of horse in the world.”
END QUOTE

https://www.shelbyvillenow.com/midnight_sun_vs__merry_go_boy

I apologize for the surliness as it is most assuredly NOT aimed at you but rather the people who still haven’t learned their lesson(s) regarding shoeing Walking Horses. They can come up with any excuse they want to but the truth is the fault lies with the farriers first and the rider/trainer second.

I hope this is helpful to you

 

[Rockysquirrel]

Ohhhhh this is a sore (pun intended) subject with me.

In order to keep riding, I have owned Walking Horses since 1990. I am strictly a trail rider. I retired to the literal “Heart of Walking Horse Country” in 2003 and got my eyes opened wide to shoeing practices that should have been banned before they ever got started.

OP, I am sorry but your friends insistence on their TWH’s needing long toes to perform is the biggest bunch of B.S. to come down the interstate They either can’t ride or they are so interested in winning they will do anything to enhance the natural gait of the horse.

If they are trail riders, they simply need to have their horses’ hooves trimmed to what the hooves ask for. Use either a standard slick shoe with borium head nails for slippage, or put rim shoes on them for grip.

I have been blessed to own four Walking Horses in my lifetime. Three of them have been laid to rest, the last one is now 28. None of them ever wore keg shoes like some TWH trail riders thought their horses should wear. My horses were/are ALL trimmed according to what their hooves ask for.

I put St. Croix rim shoes with borium head nails on my horses that needed shoes. The 28 yr old is the TWH with champagne-smooth running walk people pay big bucks for. He’s been with me 26 years, has a diagnosed less-than-Grade 1 club hoof and has ridden in all kinds of terrain BAREFOOT. He never lost a beat, never came up lame.

Not one of my Walking Horses ever had issues holding their intermediate gait unless there was something structurally wrong and they needed a chiropractor.

I would have hoped this ”long toe” garbage would have fallen by the wayside by now but evidently it hasn’t. The rider needs to know how ride and the trainer needs to know how to “set” a horse in its gait with the correct work, which in turn, increases the muscle memory needed to gait. And a high caliber chiropractor should be brought in, if the horse still can’t hold its gait.

That said, some of the show people are too Interested in how high the front legs lift to appeal to the a judges eye and will do what’s needed (flat shod or big lick) to encourage that “lift” in the hopes of a win. Resorting to long toes is the least of what goes on and the flat shod show people can be every bit as guilty of using soring methods as the Lickers.

@Rockysquirrel here is a fantastic article from the newspaper in ”The heart of Walking Horse Country”. Please take a few moments ts to read it and watch these old time videos

Please note this paragraph where it starts out that achieving the smooth natural gait took MONTHS TO ACHIEVE, until someone came up with a shortcut that ruined the horses and their reputation.

Begin Quote:
”the late 1950s this smooth natural gait that took general horsemanship and months to achieve was replaced with the quick training method of "soring". The addition of pads and wedges came along as well and the combination of "soring" and the "package" with a boot or "action device" forever changed the breed. Today we are paying the price for a shortcut that created an "industry", when we could be boasting about the most popular breed of horse in the world.”
END QUOTE

https://www.shelbyvillenow.com/midnight_sun_vs__merry_go_boy

I apologize for the surliness as it is most assuredly NOT aimed at you but rather the people who still haven’t learned their lesson(s) regarding shoeing Walking Horses. They can come up with any excuse they want to but the truth is the fault lies with the farriers first and the rider/trainer second.

I hope this is helpful to you

I definitely am not taking offense to it. It just confirmed what I have believed for quite awhile now. I appreciate your response and advice.

 

[Rockysquirrel]

I definitely am not taking offense to it. It just confirmed what I have believed for quite awhile now. I appreciate your response and advice.

The video is showing up as private.

 

[Lollykay]

The article is older so they may have deleted the video BUT

Heres the video Dr. Bob Womack made, some years ago, of the old timey Walking Horses. I actually have an original 8-track when he first released this story, lol. Dr. Womack was well respected in the Walming Horse industry. I was privileged to visit his farm a few years before he passed. I could have stayed in one of his stalls for a week, just listening to his stories

He does a great job of explaining the breed. Notice these older champion horses were flat shod and no long toes early on.

It is interesting to see how the Walking Horses were and what those in modern times have done to them just to win or because they are so brainwashed they don‘t know any better.

Also, at some point in time, the men thought they needed to hunch over er like a turtle when showing. They look stupid and have, IMHO, lost the elegance of riding these great horses that these gentlemen in old times possessed.

You will see Wilson’s Allen. My first TWH, Duke, (Bonafide Genius) went straight back to Wilson’s Allen on the top and Hall Allen on the bottom. Duke was one of those horses that comes along once in a lifetime. He was with me 24 of his 27 years and is buried on my current farm.

You will also see the great Strolling Jim who is buried 20 or so miles from me. It is too bad he was a gelding when he won the Celebration - he could have changed the Walking Horse world.

My beloved Duke who was born on the Harlindale Farm and was a grandson of Midnight Sun As a sidebar, people moan and groan how awful long shanks areyet think nothing of keeping long toes on these horses, which are damaging. Those are 8” shanow on Duke because he was a big motored horse. I could manage him with my life my fingers. There is no pressure on that bit even though he was excited waiting for the signal to fall in line in the local Christmas parade. I have light hands and that is where the problem lies with many - their hands - they don‘t know how NOT to ride the horse’s head.

 

[Rockysquirrel]

That movie was awesome and informative. Thank you.

I also have a horse that has midnight sun in her line top and, Blondie n Command. She's retired and is definitely showing the effects of when they had her padded.

I know those long toes are not right and bad for the horse and they should be shod like any horse in line with the pastern but I'm fighting a losing battle. All the people that show the walkers up here have the long toes so that makes it the gospel.

So, I'm gathering my ammo by getting all the info I can before I go into battle and try and educate her on what is right. If I go in without all the proof it will be the same as beating myself in the head with a hammer. I have never shown horses therefore I don't know anything.

 

[Skib]

Shoeing according, I think, to the artist Remington was dictated by the terrain. On rocky mountainous ground up in Montana it was beneficial to shoe horses, But shoeing was an expense and not needed down in Texas. I used to have a reference for this but cant lay me hands on it now. Our USA trips are long gone.

 

[carthorse]

That movie was awesome and informative. Thank you.

I also have a horse that has midnight sun in her line top and, Blondie n Command. She's retired and is definitely showing the effects of when they had her padded.

I know those long toes are not right and bad for the horse and they should be shod like any horse in line with the pastern but I'm fighting a losing battle. All the people that show the walkers up here have the long toes so that makes it the gospel.

So, I'm gathering my ammo by getting all the info I can before I go into battle and try and educate her on what is right. If I go in without all the proof it will be the same as beating myself in the head with a hammer. I have never shown horses therefore I don't know anything.

Good for you, and I wish you all the luck in the world with getting them to accept what would be a much better set up for the horses. I know nothing specific about TWHs so can't usefully contribute, but I've known people over here who want some types shod with longer toes because they think it emphasises a flicky action, soundness clearly is far less important to them. Interestingly in the UK most people view long toes as poor or lazy farriery.

@Skib what does that have to do with the question? @Rockysquirrel wasn't asking why or if the horse should be shod, instead she was asking about a specific shoeing style. I'm sure we all know that the main, or at least original, reason for having horses shod was to keep them sound in work.

 

[Lollykay]

That movie was awesome and informative. Thank you.

I also have a horse that has midnight sun in her line top and, Blondie n Command. She's retired and is definitely showing the effects of when they had her padded.

I know those long toes are not right and bad for the horse and they should be shod like any horse in line with the pastern but I'm fighting a losing battle. All the people that show the walkers up here have the long toes so that makes it the gospel.

So, I'm gathering my ammo by getting all the info I can before I go into battle and try and educate her on what is right. If I go in without all the proof it will be the same as beating myself in the head with a hammer. I have never shown horses therefore I don't know anything.

1. Pete Ramey is a renowned barefoot trimmer who has videos and books on trimming hooves. He will say to trim the hoof according to what it’s asking for but being a barefoot trimmer, your friends won’t want to hear anything he has to say.

2. I did find this reply from an AFA farrier regarding trimming a TWH.

Trimming And Shoeing Gaited Horses

I am fairly new to the farrier business and came across a client who has several gaited horses. They’re all different breeds — a Missouri Fox Trotter, some spotted saddle horses and a Tennessee Walker.

www.americanfarriers.com

I agree with everything the farrier said EXCEPT the last small paragraph where the farrier says:

BEGIN QUOTE:

”The biggest problem I run into with new clients with Walkers is the back feet hitting the front feet. That can usually be fixed by setting the front shoe back just a little off the toe…”
END QUOTE.

Walking Horses have a tremendous over stride. It amazes me how they manage to get their front hooves out of the way of their hind hooves most of the time.

The TWH in the above photo was only 14.3H. He had a literal jaw-dropping over stride, even in the pasture. He made peoples eyes pop numerous times. He was flat footed so had to wear four shoes during riding season. He never once clipped himself.

My 28 year old with the great running walk, however, does clip himself but only when it’s getting close to trim time; he is 16.1H, yet his big self has a shorter stride than my 14.3H TWH had. My horses are trimmed every five weeks. Rusty’s clipping issue has always been resolved by trimming his back toes a little shorter and slightly rounding/squaring them off.

The 27 yr old who recently passed also needed shoes during riding season. He also never corked himself. He was built short and stocky like the Duke in the above photo.

Rusty, my 28 yr old, is a long bodied horse so my theory is that their body style makes the difference As to whether or not they would have the tendency to clip their front hooves.

Regardless, I would not allow a farrier to set the shoes back off the front toes. It changes the break over in a way that, to me, is not healthy. A farrier would have to show me a video that proves me wrong.. I would ask for the rear hooves to be trimmed slightly shorter and a bit more square, even if shoes were involved.

I still have two more places to look for artillery for you but it’s getting time for me to get my horses their breakfast before they start looking for the cell phone .

 

[newforest]

My views.
Don't hinder, enhance.
Don't get in the way of what nature gives you, assist it where necessary.

 

[Jessey]

Regardless, I would not allow a farrier to set the shoes back off the front toes. It changes the break over in a way that, to me, is not healthy. A farrier would have to show me a video that proves me wrong.. I would ask for the rear hooves to be trimmed slightly shorter and a bit more square, even if shoes were involved.

Setting the shoe back slightly, or trimming the toe as short as the foot needs, has the same effect, increasing the speed of break over, Which gets the front foot out of the way of the hind coming through. What do you think is unhealthy with that?

 

[Skib]

N

 

[Lollykay]

Setting the shoe back slightly, or trimming the toe as short as the foot needs, has the same effect, increasing the speed of break over, Which gets the front foot out of the way of the hind coming through. What do you think is unhealthy with that?

I just have my own personal issue with setting the shoes back to where the toe is hanging over the shoe. I just don’t want to see that and it just does not seem healthy in my mind.

The right way to correct clipping is first of all to keep the trims as frequent as the hooves need. In my horse’s case it’s every five weeks.

It makes more sense to me to shorten up the back toes and square them off a little bit without making them so short you sure the horse up. You don’t want to get into the white line that’s for sure, so whoever does the work better know what they’re doing

When shoes are involved, the shoe should be formed to fit the hoof, not the other way around. So somewhat squaring the toe while wearing shoes is not impossible.

 

[Jessey]

I ask only because I’m interested, we all learn different things as we go

 

[Lollykay]

@Rockysquirrel , I did find some credible articles by DVM’s. The first link is the easiest and most easy to understand read.

Long Toe - Low Heel Syndrome - Conley and Koontz Equine Hospital

www.ckequinehospital.com

2. Stephen O’Grady is a renowned U.S. veterinarian/equine podiatrist. He has some great articles but geez-lahweez, they are tough reads even though I can tell he doesn’t mean for them to be.

However, this article by Dr. O’Grady is fairly straightforward.

Equine Podiatry | Dr. Stephen O'Grady, veterinarians, farriers, books, articles

www.equipodiatry.com

Where it says in part:

”At the racetrack, there is a tendency to maintain a low heel coupled with a long toe with the erroneous thought that this increases stride length. The use of a toe grab increases the severity of the long toe-low heel. Farriers, in an attempt to prevent shoe pulling in the front feet will use a shoe that is smaller than necessary. This places the bearing surface of the foot in front of the vertical axis of the limb, creating the same mechanical effect. Over time the foot grows in this configuration. Finally, if the toe is continually allowed to grow excessively long, the heels will follow in the same direction. The long toe I am referring to is the one seen when viewed from the bottom of the foot, where the distance from a line drawn across the widest part of the foot to the toe is markedly increased from a line drawn from the widest part of the foot to the base of the frog. This distance can and does increase in many horses over time as a result of farrier practices.”

END QUOTE

I hope this is helpful, but if you need more articles, Google “long toes, low heel syndrome in horses”. Long toes are considered problematic by vets and any farrier worthy of the AFA journeyman’s card.

 

[Rockysquirrel]

I want to thank you all for your comments and advice. It all confirmed what I believed. We mostly trail ride. Some of it can be steep and rocky so we go with either the borium / drill tech or the carbide pins. She wants to show now and is getting "advice" from all the show people so this is when our normal shoeing practices became an issue.

Around here you can ask 7 horse people the same question and get 7 different answers and 6 reasons the others are wrong. I posted on here kind of expecting the same thing and you all were very helpful and i appreciate it. I'm just going to stick to my guns, I think the farrier is doing exactly what we need.

 

[chunky monkey]

@Lollykay i remember way back when chunky had to have shoes after his pedal bone fracture. The farrier fitted what was the correct size shoe for him, however he kept clipping the shoes with his back feet. He threw a couple and loosened so badly a few times, that i had to get him out to resecure. He even threw the bar shoe off on a hack that was protecting his fracture. The farrier resolved this by going down a shoe size and setting the shoe back a little. I wouldnt say it was back to the point the foot was hanging over the shoe on the front. Although he was on a 8 week trim cycle back then. By the time we got to 8 weeks you could see the hoof coming over. Considering how much hoof chunky grows it could have i suppose been a problem, but it didnt seem to be.
Although i did have to change farriers some years later as my vet suggested and said the back feet werent being trimmed enough and whilst horse wasnt lame it wasnt in his opinion not helping with his back issue. It was something i had questioned with the farrier a couple of times. After changing and seeing how much came off the back toes i was happy to change. His back feet have always been trimmed since on each 6 week visit.
Whether the lack of trimming on the backs was the cause of the shoes being clipped i cant say for certain. This was in my early days of horse ownership. Id only had chunky two months when he did the fracture. Apart from the initial shoe troubles and once where he got it hooked in a knacked fence chunky has never lost his shoes. Yet i remember someone with a thoroughbred who was loosing them every few months.

I do also when i think back wonder if the original farrier was trimming enough of the shoed fronts as well, so they were in effect long.
We will never know but chunky has certainly gone quite arthritic this year. Could the longer toes, lack of trimming on the backs in his early life be the cause of why hes gone more arthritic in his back end.

 

[Jessey]

I couldn’t reply much as was at work last night. But I was presuming the feet were already on a good schedule and being trimmed appropriately etc. if so, then only shortening the hinds (and therefore increasing break over speed) can actually make the interference worse as it gets the hind foot into the front foots space quicker. Obviously it does depend on the cause, but I wouldn’t say trimming only the back foot is a better solution. I’ve got the Pete Ramey bible downstairs, I’ll have to have another read and see how he explains it.