Thinking of getting shoes

[Yann]

I know it's not what you're going to want to hear but after some experiences of my own a few years back I'm afraid I do harbour some scepticism about relatively inexperienced EP's. The HPT method is taught in quite a strict and rigid way and trimmers aren't encouraged to deviate from it. The size of the roll at the toe and the comments about the white line separation might be two examples where another style of trimmer would deal with it differently and wouldn't expect the horse to be troubled by it in the least. Stretched white lines are often a result of too much wall being left at the ground.

It is worth bearing in mind that optical illusions can operate when you're looking at hooves with lateral deviations, the farriery text book No Foot No Horse discusses this, so it might be that the foot and leg are still as straight as ever they were and growth is making them look wrong. The hoof won't be symmetrical viewed from underneath, and will usually be out of balance to some degree across the heels too, you will see a difference in height relative to the frog.

How long is it since he was trimmed? That may not be helping the picture, horses that wear unevenly do need trimming frequently to prevent the deviation escalating to the point where it starts to affect their movement. He did look fine to me when I saw him, although he did seem to be landing a bit toe first, will be interesting to see whether that changes in boots or shoes. It is the case that feet that have a tendency to grow to one side stop doing that so much when you put a shoe on, probably because uneven wear is prevented. Whether that's better for the limb or not I'm certainly not qualified to say, I suspect it depends on all sorts of different things.

I think speaking to the vet, and the farrier, and taking it from there is the way forward. If you do end up shoeing him then at the very least you'll know how much of what is going on can be helped by shoes and how much can't. The boots won't have been wasted money though, it's surprising how useful they can be in cases of abscess or shoe loss, and there's no reason you couldn't take the shoes off again either part or full time in future and make use of them then.

 

[artemis]

Could anyone answer this question. How long do EP's train for?

 

[Yann]

Not nearly as long as farriers, however if previous discussions of the subject are anything to go by if you factor out the metal bashing the time spent studying anatomy and theory are pretty similar.

 

[learningcurve]

Do they do an apprenticeship, if so how long.

 

[popularfurball]

I don't knbow about EPs but the UKNHCP practitioners do "apprenticship" style programs - I have put it in commas, as they qualify first and then work under supervision, rather than "learn on the job" style appreciship. They are then supervised at intervals by their mentor. I hink (though I may be wrong) they also have to do updates to learning yearly to maintain membership... though that could be wrong.

 

[Stormin]

I don't know if it is a case of one qualification being better than another, or simply down to that particular situation.
I mean there is always a big difference between farriers. For example, some will be better at shoeing SJers whilst others heavy horses as all horses have certain necessities due to the individual and it's type/work load.
Is it really fair to be suggesting that EP's aren't worthy or as qualified as another qualification ? I don't think so as often it's the individual who will make the difference.

Just because you have done x years of further education, does not make you brainier than the person who left the educational cycle sooner.
I believe that tending to horses' feet (in all shapes and forms) remains an art. You can study it in a classroom but you have to have a certain feel to get it right, especially in cases that are not textbook examples.

Back to Rafi, (sorry for the sidestep) it can't be easy for you as there are so many differing opinions. You are correct in getting a maximum of views but ultimately it is you who will have to sift through all of the information and try to find the solution that fits the problem.

Just one thought though - even if you do decide to have him shod, doesn't mean that you can't take the shoes off a bit later on when the problems are dealt with. I've decided to keep Stormin barefoot in winter (as he doesn't do much work at all) but will probably have him shod again in the summer because it's what appears to suit our needs the best for now.

Good luck :smile:

 

[me_n_super_abby]

There is alot to be said about different trim styles, lets not turn it onto a witch hunt. Applied EP's are regulated, do regular updates and work very hard to earn their qualification as im sure with other types of EP's and trimmers. Everybody has different opinions and experiences of different styles of trims, lets not just focus on the negatives ones. Not saying that for a reaction, sorry :redcarded:

 

[Zingy]

Personally I'd get a good farrier out, if you can find one. Preferably one who is pro-barefoot and will correct the problems by trimming if that's possible and shoe if not. They're not always easy to find unfortunately, but if you can, you get the best of both worlds - you'll get a trim appropriate to the horse and the work it is doing and if there's issues that trimming won't correct, you've got someone who can shoe either long term or short term.

 

[learningcurve]

I don't knbow about EPs but the UKNHCP practitioners do "apprenticship" style programs - I have put it in commas, as they qualify first and then work under supervision, rather than "learn on the job" style appreciship. They are then supervised at intervals by their mentor. I hink (though I may be wrong) they also have to do updates to learning yearly to maintain membership... though that could be wrong.

Thankyou, I have never used a trimmer, so know very little about them.:redface:

 

[devonlass]

I'll try to get some pics today of his feet and legs - it is his fronts that I'm most worried about.

Ok totally confused here,but that could just be me,it does happen lol.

I thought you said YO was worried he was becoming 'cow hocked',due to his feet turning out?? How can he be cow hocked if it's his fronts??

Very good idea about asking the vet BTW.Do make sure you explain to him though that you feel people *might* be scaremongering a little bit,and that ideally you would prefer to keep him barefoot.

I'm not sure about saying this,and please bear in mind it is only my opinion,but out of the main types of trimmers Kc LaPierre would be my least likely choice for my own horse.Having briefly researched their training programme and ideals,I have reservations about both TBH.
Personally I would go with an EP or UKNHCP trimmer if available.

Like I said though that is only my opinion and based on my limited knowledge of that type of trimming.Am sure there is every chance your trimmer is a very good one,and that being the case she should not mind answering your questions and concerns regarding Rafi's feet.

 

[devonlass]

I don't knbow about EPs but the UKNHCP practitioners do "apprenticship" style programs - I have put it in commas, as they qualify first and then work under supervision, rather than "learn on the job" style appreciship. They are then supervised at intervals by their mentor. I hink (though I may be wrong) they also have to do updates to learning yearly to maintain membership... though that could be wrong.

My UKNHCP trimmer did 3 years training before,(including like you say working with supervision),before she was able to say she was qualified/registered and trim on her own.

You are quite right about the ongoing training as well.My trimmer has to do a certain amount of training and updating with new methods/research etc each year to maintain her registered status.

 

[Bodshi]

I thought you said YO was worried he was becoming 'cow hocked',due to his feet turning out?? How can he be cow hocked if it's his fronts??
.

It's my rambling post that's confusing! YO pointed out that not only are both his front feet now turning out, but that he is also becoming cow hocked, in other words he's gone from having 3 forward-pointing and one turned out foot, to having all four turned out. I've taken some pics today but am struggling a bit with photobucket atm - very slow and tea is nearly ready. Will try to upload them after X Factor.

 

[Bodshi]

Got the pics uploaded and I'd be really grateful for any opinions. I'm looking at the angle of his foot/pastern to the ground and the way his feet turn out. I've looked back through all the photos I've taken since I got him in May and in some his feet to point forward and in some they point out, seems to be how he's standing at the time, but I couldn't get him to stand with them straight today. Maybe it's nothing to do with how his feet are being trimmed at all, I just don't know! I put his new boots on today (with a struggle) and he did seem to go better in them to start with, then he suddenly ran out of steam - I wasn't doing a lot, just walking and trotting. Freeschooled him tonight (without boots) and he went like the wind - lovely forward going floaty trot, wish he went like that when I'm riding him.

Anyway the pics, hope they're ok I've been fiddling about on photobucket for ages trying to resize them.

All four feet

Front feet

Hind feet

New Easyboot Gloves

And again from the side

 

[devonlass]

How sad is it that I have kept checking to see if you had uploaded pics lol,I so need to get a life:redface:

Ok have to say there doesn't look much wrong with his feet to me!! The only thing I would comment on in regard to hoof shape/trim etc is that in couple of pics his heels look a bit under run,and toe looks a little long,BUT that could just be my eyes and/or angle of pics,or could just be something trimmer is aware of and working on.

As far as being toed out to the degree of risking being cow hocked/bowed tendons etc,sorry but either your YO is blind,or scaremongering.He is not standing straight in those pics so is impossible to say for sure but he doesn't look much different to me to any other horse that is standing at an odd angle!! I have some pics of Marb where he looks like his foot is almost back to front lol,but is just how he's standing,I suspect if you made a point of looking at peoples pics on here and took particular notice of the feet many of them would look a bit odd.Sadly most horses don't stand perfectly straight a lot of the time,doesn't mean they all have foot or confo problems though.I have had a horse that was very cow hocked (she was meant to be BTW it's a breed trait in clydies),and no way your Rafi shows any sign of being cow hocked.Being cow hocked is not just to do with their feet,is the angle of the whole lower leg (although they do use a dreadful shoeing method to encourage cow hocks in young clydies),my mare was as cow hocked as they come but her hooves were a great shape,and was nothing to do with them why she was cow hocked.

If you look at the front on pic of him wearing the gloves,he is actually standing relatively straight on one leg,and although diffcult to tell with boots covering hoof,he looks like line of leg and hoof is pretty straight to me??

Gloves look a good fit BTW,sorry you had trouble getting them on (this is what I didn't like about the gloves,needed a shoe horsn to get them on and off:giggle.Wouldn't worry about him not moving freely in them at first,boots take a bit of getting used to,just the weight feels a bit weird to them at first,but they get used to it.Mine used to trip a bit and walk like an old man when first wore the boots,but is fine in them now.For what it's worth you will find exactly the same with shoes,again the weight and with shoes often the shape of the foot as well.

Sorry again for waffling and all of that is of course only my opinion,there is every possibility I have no idea what I'm on about lol.My eyesight's not what it was either (I hate getting old!!),but hopefully someone more experienced and with 20/20 vision will reply:tongue:
I really don't see anything terrible in those pics though,not like I was expecting from what your YO said anyway.His feet aren't perfect,but they don't look like there's a lot wrong with them either.You might have to accept that maybe he doesn't move perfectly straight,(if he doesn't),and perhaps he will be prone to uneven wear,but I see no reason he can't stay barefoot and wear boots for when he's struggling with the ground or wear.I certainly can't see what shoes are going to help with or achieve??

Really an going to shut up now lol,apologies again for waffling:redface:

 

[me_n_super_abby]

There is some difference in both back and front on his right? But most have some difference, abby has this due to previous body issues. But rememeber how long he
has been trimmed for by the EP, it does take time. As its on both side id be looking further up the body. Id be looking at maybe getting a body worker in and looking at that too. Sometimes the feet tell you there is something going on else where. And the fact he is going better with no rider/tack. Hope you get sorted. But i would recommend discussing with the EP. Im sure she does body work too? :unsure:

 

[devonlass]

Just out of interest (and any excuse to post pics of my big girl I used to own:tongue,this is my clydie mare,sorry is not a good pic and can't really see her feet,but has so much feather was always impossible to see her feet lol,but hopefully can see how her hocks are postitioned,and that it is a confo thing not a foot thing,she had great feet!!

Out of interest have been looking through all my pics of Marb on photobucket,and in at least half of them he is standing at an odd angle (didn't post as didn't want to h-jack thread with my pics:redface,and looks toed out in many of them,if it makes you feel any better Rafi is certainly not alone in not looking perfectly straight a lot of the time!!

 

[Bodshi]

Thanks ladies. LOL, know exactly what you mean about the eyesight - I'm going to have to give in very soon and get reading glasses - never thought that would happen to me!

I'm so glad you don't think Rafi's feet are really bad. Yes the EP is trying to correct his long toes but she is doing it gradually - the first time she came I couldn't ride him on hard surfaces for four weeks, I think, because she took so much off the foot, and because I want to be able to ride him while she's doing the work she has agreed to do it more slowly. However, now I've got the boots she could maybe be a bit more pro-active, if I decide to keep on with her.

Yes, it is his right side that's the problem area, especially his right fore - the first time she saw him EP asked if he always grazed with his right foot out to the front and he does - I've lots of pictures demonstrating this. She's also mentioned that he is very stiff when pulling his legs out to the side (possibly the problem he had with the farrier) and I was going to get her to do some bodywork with him, but must admit something has held me back.

Yann kindly came over a couple of weeks ago and helped me size his feet for boots so that's why the gloves look a good fit. I think they're ok, as I've read they are difficult to put on and take off to start with if the fit is tight enough.

I was so worried when YO spoke to me yesterday because she said Rafi didn't used to have turned out feet but I've spent ages looking through all my photos and I can find plenty of him with turned out feet. I've also spent a long time googling images of arabs and see quite a lot of them have long pasterns like Rafi and even sometimes stand with turned out feet.

So now I'm thinking, was YO just scaremongering? And if so, how does the opinion of the other lady fit in - I wouldn't have thought she'd be one to join in the scaremongering, particularly as she isn't anti-barefoot, in fact she's considered going barefoot with her driving cob. I actually trust my YO and am sure she wouldn't scare me unless she really thought the horse was in danger, but then again I know she really doesn't think horses can cope without shoes.

Aaaarrrgghh!

Thanks for posting pics of your old mare Devonlass, she's gorgeous. To think, I used to loan a Clyde x and never noticed whether he was cow-hocked. It does go to prove a point though - if they can shoe to emphasise cow hocks, then surely they can shoe to correct them?

 

[eml]

Probably just the camera angle but to me it looks as if his feet don't match each other at the heel and that the hoof /pastern axis is not correct, possibly due to your trimmer trying to reduce the toe??

I would be more concerned though at the reduced mobility/flexibility and address that first.

 

[Flipo's Mum]

I feel for you Bodshi, if I was in your position I'd just fret about who has the most unbiased opinion. Farriers may always want to shoe, trimmers may always want to keep barefoot (mine is AANHCP and he's definitely very anti shoeing). It just makes you wonder who will give you the right answer. Is there a right answer?

It reminds me of the predicament my sis was in with my nephew. When he was a baby he was pretty big (his dad is 6ft 3in) and the weight caused his head to be slightly flat at the back. The specialists said she could make him wear a foam helmet for a year to help mold the skull while it was soft and my sis didn't know what to do. In the end she did everything else she could but get the helmet because she couldn't bare the thought of him wearing it for that length of time. His head is far from perfect but she's done her best otherwise.

I think we on here feel that your YO may be exercising the very horsey-world-rife practice of passionately believing their opinion is correct and the only way. That may be the case indeed, she might be right but I think you're right to explore all sources of advice - the vet would probably be a good start - I'm interested in this whole 'he now wouldn't pass a vetting' suggestion.

Devonlass - love your clydie, any excuse to see a heavy is always imo totally justified. I know from the various breeders and enthusiasts around our part, that they love a clydie to be as cow hocked as possible. They breed them especially for that confirmation type.

 

[devonlass]

Thanks ladies. LOL, know exactly what you mean about the eyesight - I'm going to have to give in very soon and get reading glasses - never thought that would happen to me!

So now I'm thinking, was YO just scaremongering? And if so, how does the opinion of the other lady fit in - I wouldn't have thought she'd be one to join in the scaremongering, particularly as she isn't anti-barefoot, in fact she's considered going barefoot with her driving cob. I actually trust my YO and am sure she wouldn't scare me unless she really thought the horse was in danger, but then again I know she really doesn't think horses can cope without shoes.

Aaaarrrgghh!

Thanks for posting pics of your old mare Devonlass, she's gorgeous. To think, I used to loan a Clyde x and never noticed whether he was cow-hocked. It does go to prove a point though - if they can shoe to emphasise cow hocks, then surely they can shoe to correct them?

I know isn't it awful,I am already shortsighted,and now my close up vision seems to be going as well,am dreading my next optician appointment,will probably have to have bi-focals:redface:

I think in regard to the YO thing,that possibly she is scaremongering a little.That's not to say she's doing it maliciously,she probably is of the school of thought that horses need shoes end of.I think people often see what they want to see that fit's in with what they believe if that makes sense?? I'm sure we are all guilty of that at times,but some people like your YO maybe are a bit more set in their way's and not open to consider other possibilities like that Rafi's feet just need a bit more time and trimming to come right.If it turns out he needs shoes then get him shod,I just think your YO is being a little hasty and dramatic in her approach.Maybe the other lady you mention is just being led by YO?? She might not be anti barefoot,but if she doesn't have lot's of knowledge about it yet,she might just be taking what YO say's at face value under the assumption she is more knowledgable??
I think you know enough to make up your own mind TBH,you know him best and are more qualified to make a judgement on his feet than either of those two IMO.

On the cow hocked thing,it would seem a likely conclusion that they could shoe to correct wouldn't it,but I don't think they can really.My fault for not explaining fully when mentioning about the shoeing method used in the clydes.It's an awful method that I *think* is called couping.It's done in youngsters from 6 months old and they shoe them unevenly (so the shoe is built up on one side),to encourage the bone to grow cow hocked.It's an awful practice,and illegal in this country,but still done in Scotland,despite many vets speaking out against it.

I will confess I don't know enough about remedial farriery to know for sure if they can shoe to help correct cow hocks (maybe mild cases they could??) but as true cow hocks are a confo thing,not a foot thing I would assume not.I think the only reason the shoes play a part with the method I mentioned with the young clydes is because it's done when they are young and actually determines how the bone grows.Silly really as most clydes are cow hocked anyway,but I think in the showing world they like even the youngsters to have exaggerated cow hocks,hence helping nature along a bit,terrible thing,but sadly it happens.

As your horse was a clyde x it may not have been terribly cow hocked,and you may not have noticed.It's not a fault at all,same with shires,they were bred that way so they could step in the narrow furrows when ploughing,I *think* that's right anyway,but they are definitely meant to be that way,and is nothing to do with bad foot shape.
I can see how being very toed out would maybe make them appear a bit 'cow hocked',but don't think it would be true cow hocks,as AFAIK they either are cow hocked as part of their confo or they're not.

Again all my thoughts on the matter and necessarily correct,and apologies again for waffling for England,I really must learn to make short posts:redface: