Why ride in an outline?

[OwnedbyChanter]

Very true. I love watching dressage and the puissance. And Badminton come to that. But really it could be argued that it is very cruel and the injuries that these poor horses face along the way are horrible.

So now you are saying that we should all just hack are horses as this is what is best for them? Are you saying there has never been an issue with hacking horses and splints, tendons, kissing spine etc etc that what the rest of the us do is now damaging our horses.

Best we don't ride them at all and turn them all back out on to common land and let them be horses.

 

[Trewsers]

Exactly! Does the ‘pootler’ harm their horse by not riding in an outline, or does the dressage rider harm their horse by riding in an outline.

And by ‘outline’ I do mean working through their back, the horse using their hind legs and working into a connection. But surely by the horse using their back end, you are shifting the natural balance of weight distribution. And this is going to cause strain on their joints. How many horses on dressage yards have their hocks routinely medicated? How many hacking horses do?

I had Storm's hocks medicated about seven years ago. I don't think her needing them doing was down to my not riding her in an outline / contact - whatever technical terms there are. I think it was due to being kept in a lot as a young horse and then just being hammered around an arena and then back into a small space. Or she could have just been unlucky? Guess I will never really know.
I don't think the average pootler does much harm overall.

 

[squidsin]

The thing with threads like this, once you start talking about what's 'best' for horses which means that anyone who does dressage, show jumps or events their horse is by default NOT doing what's 'best' for their horses, then it's never going to end well, is it? This thread looks like it's heading towards being massively judgy.

 

[Mary Poppins]

The thing with threads like this, once you start talking about what's 'best' for horses which means that anyone who does dressage, show jumps or events their horse is by default NOT doing what's 'best' for their horses, then it's never going to end well, is it? This thread looks like it's heading towards being massively judgy.

I'm sorry if you feel like I judging you. It's just a discussion and I don't mean to offend anyone. I guess that I have come to a realisation that after being around horses for well over 35 years, I don't actually have a clue about anything at all. Don't take any notice of me. I guess I am trying to make sense of why I have completely ruined my horse and how is happened. Hindsight is a wonderful thing, and yes if I could turn the clock back then I probably would just turn him out and watch him walk round the field. Because if I had done that, he wouldn't be completely knackard now.

 

[Trewsers]

I'm sorry if you feel like I judging you. It's just a discussion and I don't mean to offend anyone. I guess that I have come to a realisation that after being around horses for well over 35 years, I don't actually have a clue about anything at all. Don't take any notice of me. I guess I am trying to make sense of why I have completely ruined my horse and how is happened. Hindsight is a wonderful thing, and yes if I could turn the clock back then I probably would just turn him out and watch him walk round the field. Because if I had done that, he wouldn't be completely knackard now.

You have not ruined him. Nor can you say if he was turned out in the field etc would he be fine. He is not knackered. Yes hindsight is wonderful but eludes most folk. Never think you have ruined him. Things happen with them. J was treated like a prince and sadly pts whilst still in his prime. Chloe is almosr thirty and thriving. Storm - well, we are on borrowed time, every day is precious. Zi - who knows?
I live and breathe them because I'm lucky to have them so close, but still there is loads to learn. Sometimes the learning isn't always nice. And don't try and turn the clock back!!! Too many complications.

 

[Jessey]

@Trewsers is right, you cannot say he wouldn't have his problems if you had done things differently, horses get arthritis/joint problems and a myriad of other problems, it is part of it, part of the highs and lows that are horse ownership.

 

[Mary Poppins]

You have not ruined him. Nor can you say if he was turned out in the field etc would he be fine. He is not knackered. Yes hindsight is wonderful but eludes most folk. Never think you have ruined him. Things happen with them. J was treated like a prince and sadly pts whilst still in his prime. Chloe is almosr thirty and thriving. Storm - well, we are on borrowed time, every day is precious. Zi - who knows?
I live and breathe them because I'm lucky to have them so close, but still there is loads to learn. Sometimes the learning isn't always nice. And don't try and turn the clock back!!! Too many complications.

He is knackard. The drugs in his stifle didn't work and he is still lame. The vet said that his injury was caused by dressage and all this 'working from behind' and trying to get him to lighten in front has basically worn down his stifle joint to the extent that it can't cope anymore. We are waiting a few more weeks to see if field rest helps but otherwise he is facing surgery and even then there is no guarantee that it will work. He has been consistently lame for over 4 months now.

It's not that we even did that much dressage. I always tried to have a mixture of work and we rarely schooled for more than 2 days in a row. But the problems did start last summer when I tried to get serious with my riding and ride him 'correctly'. And we were successful and won our first prelim at a competitive venue with 72% in October. I thought that horses were supposed to be ridden like this and that I was helping him by building muscles in the right places and that it would help his longevity. But this was not the case, the dressage has completely broken him. If I had just let him ride along in the way he always did (nose poking on the forehand) and not pushed him to do tight circles and leg yield etc. his injury wouldn't have happened. I did it to him.

I am not sure that I even want to ride him anymore anyway. That is a big piece of me that wants to find him a nice field and just treat him as a pet. I can't ever see how I can ride him without breaking him again.

 

[squidsin]

I'm sorry if you feel like I judging you. It's just a discussion and I don't mean to offend anyone. I guess that I have come to a realisation that after being around horses for well over 35 years, I don't actually have a clue about anything at all. Don't take any notice of me. I guess I am trying to make sense of why I have completely ruined my horse and how is happened. Hindsight is a wonderful thing, and yes if I could turn the clock back then I probably would just turn him out and watch him walk round the field. Because if I had done that, he wouldn't be completely knackard now.

I doubt you 'ruined' your horse. I know people with horses that have barely ever been ridden that are still broken! Horses break easily - a foot down a rabbit hole, hooning around the field, rolling weird! Don't beat yourself up for riding your horse. That's what they're there for. No, they're not designed to be ridden, but if we didn't ride them, nobody would breed them at all. I feel that that's a different argument however!

The vet apparently told my friend that her horse's injuries (which have also seen him retired now at age 8) were caused by her riding him in tight circles. I don't believe a word of it tbh - for one thing, she barely rode the horse at all, having been pregnant for most of the last five years. I think he did it in the field. I know it's really hard and you are a person who takes things to heart - but I think it unlikely that Ben's problems are your fault.

 

[horseandgoatmom]

Yes 20 20 hindsight is great.

Things happen for many reasons and FOR the diligence and caution taken.
WHY DO THINGS HAPPEN????
IT'S CALLED LIFE......

I was diligent to xray Andi,s knees before round penning her.
I tried to do it all right.

We did lots of low level stuff when RIDING.
I'm not a hellion and im not out for the kill of wild riding in a gymkhana.

I want safe sane and more precise and slower and do just as well as an out of control horse.

On her own she fractured her hock.
The vet said it was nothing i did she had narrow joint spaces.
20 20 hind would I now xray hocks too yes.

She healed fine but I worry she is 15 I've had her since 3 months old from a rescue.

Her head carriage is NATURALLY
higher than Sonny she does not mind
Contact.
SONNY is long and low. He Hates
Contact.
He has a NATURAL long and low.

I'm not sure on that western horses don't last as long.

Heavy stress of some western events take their toll for sure.
Most of us are not doing those events.
Like most English riders are not grand prix jumpers. Or the constant high level stress riding if extreme upper level dressage.

Both my horses are very different frame wise
And I don't push them to be in one
Mold.

I'm also more of a poodle too.
I ride for fun. I love versatility and the
Obstacles etc. But I'm not chasing the ribbons.
That is the icing on the cake of a fun day.

Also I hate the extremely low head of western pleasure classes and the odd looking are they gonna fall over dead gaits with the nose dragging on the GROUND.
There is nothing natural in that.

There is no contact why that extreme is even wanted I have no idea.
But who us to say falling off the abyss to that extreme is not just as bad to a very highly collected dressage horse.

 

[Bodshi]

He is knackard. The drugs in his stifle didn't work and he is still lame. The vet said that his injury was caused by dressage and all this 'working from behind' and trying to get him to lighten in front has basically worn down his stifle joint to the extent that it can't cope anymore.

If it were as simple as that all dressage horses would be lame. Unless you were getting Ben to actually stand up and walk about on his hinds I can't see why it would have such a drastic effect, surely Ben must have had an underlying stifle issue already.

Vet's aren't infallible. I've only spoken to one that told me schooling was bad for horses (he rode endurance). There's lots of conflicting information out there and vets may be taught different things at vet school depending on which particular decade they were taught in. I know it's their job to keep up to date with latest thinking, and they may have more idea than the average horse owner about whether or not the information is credible, but still they can't absolutely know all the answers.

 

[SmallHunter]

Who thinks it is important to ride your horse in an outline? What does an outline mean to you? Why is it important or not important to you?

I have completely changed my views on this, but will wait to see what others think before I give my views.

I think it is very important for a horse to be ridden in an outline and by this I mean working through from behind lifting there backs so that they can work in self carriage.
It is important because for most horses this will be the easiest and most comfortable way for them to carry a rider as they are working through their whole body and not overdeveloping certain muscles.
That doesn't mean I constantly ride in a 'dressage' frame but I do make sure that my mare is working from behind and lifting her back, she is 21 this year and working this way has definitely helped to keep her supple, well muscled and free moving.

 

[horseandgoatmom]

Maybe the wording should be
The OUTLINE that works for your horse.

Sometimes we tend to put one thought to a word.

I'm guilty of first thought of collection that would come to mind for many years was
A high level dressage horse in piaffe.

 

[KP nut]

If we sit on horse's backs or hitch them to a harness we are putting them under pressure that may - eventually - lead to injury. If we allow beginners onto ponies they will bounce around and increase that risk. If we jump them we put them under excessive strain. If we compete them XC we may kill them (and ourselves). A horse was euthanised on the XC at Badminton. A pony was euthanised at my first BE event this year at Kelsall. Jonty Evans is currently in intensive care having fallen XC at a 3* event at the weekend. Horses die racing all the time.

I made my peace a long time ago with the fact that my horses are in my life for my benefit. I want to compete and they work hard. They are expected to be athletes and will experience risks and pressures associated with that. In return I give them good quality care, regular treatment and preventative treatment, good food, turn out and company, a varied work-load on different surfaces and plenty of rest in between efforts. I try to be as balanced and sympathetic a rider as I can be within the limits of my skills. I try to train them well so they can cope with what is being asked of them. But all of that just minimises the damage/risks. But even with all the pressures and risks I still think they would choose that life over taking their chances in the wild.

The alternative is to take them from the wild and offer them all the care and benefits of domesticated life without expecting anything from them in return. But then they risk getting fat and bored! If your 'job' as a horse is no longer staying alive, then how do horses get mental stimulation. What matters to them. How do they feel good?

My Aunt has Dartmoor ponies that she rescues as foals and she considers them 'free spirits' and would never dream of breaking them to ride. I think they are probably utterly bored and would much rather have a job to do.

 

[Trewsers]

Maybe the wording should be
The OUTLINE that works for your horse.

Sometimes we tend to put one thought to a word.

I'm guilty of first thought of collection that would come to mind for many years was
A high level dressage horse in piaffe.

Too true, definitely the one that works for your particular horse. J had a naturally low head carriage and always looked as though he was in an outline. Maybe he was maybe he wasn't. Neither of us was a good enough rider to know or feel it. They are all ao different aren't they?

 

[OwnedbyChanter]

Just another point but how many of us actually ride collected and I mean true to form collected.

Collection only comes in at elementary that is true collection. Prelim and novice are working trot working canter. Most leisure riders and lower level dressage riders don’t do collected trot or canter.

We are working on collected now and yes that is hard work for him but I’m not constantly collected it’s a collect than working in short bursts.

I agree with @kpnut I have horses to ride once they can’t be ridden I keep them chanter was 22 when he stopped being ridden not bad for a dressage horse.

I am sorry that the vet has told you Ben can’t be ridden and that it was dressage that caused this. I know how much he means to you but I also remember that you use to ride him twice a day an hour a time to keep his weight off. Once in the school and one hack surely dressage is not purely to blame and maybe the issues have been underlying for years.

 

[Tir]

I am really sorry that the drugs didnt work as expected, but with surgery an option you are not at the end of the road yet so I really hope you have a good outcome if you opt for that.

I do have a story to tell about the 18 year old horse my sister and I have. Navicular diagnosis at 8, vet advised shoe, keep him going for another few years, not really many other options. Did some research, changed vets, went barefoot, sound horse inside 6 months and he has never been lame on his fronts again.

However, the lack of work whilst we were sorting his feet lead to a very odd lameness behind. Not always, just sometimes. Blocks, hock xrays etc found nothing, eventually found kissing spin. Now we lovingly refer to this horse as the grey giraffe as that is his prefered way of being. We just wanted to ride and have fun, no dressage, no contact, had a nice time but we were passengers. We were told that unless we turned him the right way up with correct riding, to a contact, lifting his back (therefore opening the spinal processes) that there wasnt anything that could be done other than very major surgery. So we learnt to ride, we used a bungee to help as we werent good enough to ask consitantly then and all you had to do was look at the xrays to see why he had to. So he improved, we improved and he is 10 years later doing more than he was then.

Take from that what you will, but I choose to ride my horses as 'correctly' as I can, and if I ride on the buckle they do not go inside out and hollow (unless they are noseying at interesting things!).

 

[Mary Poppins]

Thanks for all the interesting comments. I really don't know how I feel about anything. He has never had his head up in the air, his natural head carriage is quite low with a poky nose. He probably does round his back to a certain extent in this position anyway. I just feel like giving up completely. I have lost all desire to ride and keep thinking about this lovely little yard near to me for rent. It has no riding facilities and the hacking is terrible, but I could keep Ben there and then get a couple of unwanted rescue ponies and make myself my own little sanctuary. That would make me happy right now.

 

[Jane&Ziggy]

I am very, very sorry to hear about Ben, @Mary Poppins . I hate to hear you blaming yourself and saying you have "broken" him - I don't believe this can be true, and I really empathise with your regret.

As for the outline stuff: I have come to believe, having thought for ages that it didn't matter, that it's good to train horses to carry themselves well, with their hocks under them and their backs lifted. This is the way horses go in the wild when there is something at stake - sex, fighting, or escape. They are working at their full athletic potential. For Ziggy I think this matters because he is laminitic, and the more weight he can take on his back end rather than his front end the better for him. The Quarter Horse mare I rode on Dartmoor this weekend, a fast ride for 5 hours over really taxing terrain, went like a Western pleasure horse with her nose practically on the ground - but her back was up and her hocks under her the whole time. She was poised and balanced to cover the ground quickly and safely. We don't ask horses to do this all the time - we don't even ask them to do it all the time they are carrying us - but I think it helps them to cope better with carrying us.

This is not the same as doing dressage, tucking the head in to the chest or working "in a frame". It means being fit and strong through the core and working with the core engaged. Good for people, good for horses, whether they are ridden or not. Is my view!

 

[newforest]

I don't use the word outline, I use the term self carriage. The cob carries herself, I carry myself. She 'works' into a natural contact.

For me its not what something looks like but what it feels like. She feels balanced.
A horse left on its forehand, will probably be uncomfortable for the rider, and at risk of injury further down the line.
Anyone who has ridden a just backed youngster knows the feeling you get and as they develop, gradually that changes. You don't leave them to motorbike around corners, run into canter, or be so unbalanced that they slip and trip because they are uneducated.

I allow long and low but she doesn't fall onto the forehand doing so.
Even a horse with the backside of a bus and the neck of a bull, can push from behind into a harness if she was hitched up.
However-I do not ask for collection, vertical and my definition of outline.

 

[Jane&Ziggy]

@newforest I would be very happy if I saw Ziggy going round on a line looking like that. Especially with grass that long - he would be eating it the whole time!