Buddy seat

[angelfben]

First it’s more dangerous, the car example is supposed to ask/show more dangerous than what, everything is dangerous and many factors define how dangerous something is, the it’s dangerous full stop statements don’t take this into account.

You're right, this is exactly what this is about - the risk factor. To draw back to your car analogy that you seem to be so fond of.. yes getting in a car every day is a dangerous activity. However the extent of the danger and risk involved can be altered and controlled greatly.

E.G.

Scenario A: Small child is travelled in a car, unfastened, with no restraints/child seat or seatbelt. Let's say just for good measure the car is an older vehicle with no modern safety features and is driven at speed and recklessly.

Let us compare this to Scenario B: A small child is travelled in a car, restrained in a modern safety compliant child seat. The car is a modern vehicle, fitted with traction control, anti-lock braking system, airbags, safety-glass, crumple zones etc. And lets say the car is being driven at a sensible speed and with caution.

See just how different the risk factor is in each situation?

Now imagine car driver A announcing "Driving is a dangerous activity, so are lots of things in life". But see just how much different the risk factor can vary given suitable precautions?

In my humble opinion this is how I see the Buddy Seat. Yes riding is a dangerous activity, but I do not see that as a suitable reason to not take any precaution possible to lessen that risk factor. Yes life is dangerous, it would be an extremely boring existance if we were never to take risks, but why heighten that risk so greatly for such little pleasures?

Children and animals are notoriously unreliable. A friends daughter is learning to ride at the moment and regularly 'forgets' to hold on or do as she is told. Luckily there is someone there to re-balance her, and even if she were to slip off it is only a couple of feet to the ground from the small pony she rides. I dread to imagine the consequences of a small child tumbling from a larger horse, and perched behind you in such a way makes it almost impossible to supervise or assist them in any way.

Second it puts pressure in the weakest part of the horses back and that’s bad for all horses full stop, the cavalry example and scientific study into exo-muscular systems are supposed to show how this is not always the case..

I have nothing further to add to this point. There is significant substantiated evidence from leading veterinary authorities, that any weight or pressure on the lumbar region of the horses back should be avoided. If you choose to ignore this in favour of a cavalry practice that was used 200 years ago, that is your perogative.

The vaulting example that has been put forward for consideration is a modern example of how pressure greater than a small child is put in this area of the horses back which does not cause the issues which has been suggested are unavoidable..

Do you know this?

 

[Joyscarer]

So would this buddy seat be in danger of slipping to the side and as a consequence twisting the saddle?

My daughter has a tendancy to ride lopsided and has pulled Joy's saddle and Clava's pony Woody's saddle over to one side. If she were behind me then I wouldn't notice this and it would be very uncomfortable for the horse

 

[Keket]

Scenario A: Small child is travelled in a car, unfastened, with no restraints/child seat or seatbelt. Let's say just for good measure the car is an older vehicle with no modern safety features and is driven at speed and recklessly.

Let us compare this to Scenario B: A small child is travelled in a car, restrained in a modern safety compliant child seat. The car is a modern vehicle, fitted with traction control, anti-lock braking system, airbags, safety-glass, crumple zones etc. And lets say the car is being driven at a sensible speed and with caution.

This is a fantastic analogy, angelfben.

 

[Sunshine-x]

I think it's currently at around £1.18 for a sliced white loaf.

what about brown though? i cant eat white.

 

[Lot1983]

"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics."

 

[Gimp]

I read statiscally, If you had a white loaf in your red car, and travelled in a 3 mile radius home when you purchased it, the potential of having a RTA with more than 4 injuries is 18%

If you had happened to of gone for a brown loaf, in a silver car and travelled between 3 and 7 miles, AND bought milk, the potential of having a RTA with less than 3 injuries is 2%

However it seems if you just travel 2 miles and only buy a brown loaf, the potential of having a RTA with minor scrapes is 0.8% in a black car, however in a conflicting report I read it was 3.2%, they also said if you had a 2nd car at home you chose not to drive on this particular day which is two toned then the potential risk can rise to between 0.4% to as high as 3.7%

Scary thought really

 

[xloopylozzax]

denbenj

ah i hate stats (i had to do that module for maths ) load of twaddle, spouted by people who want to sound clever

 

[Chilli]

Scenario A: Small child is travelled in a car, unfastened, with no restraints/child seat or seatbelt. Let's say just for good measure the car is an older vehicle with no modern safety features and is driven at speed and recklessly.

Let us compare this to Scenario B: A small child is travelled in a car, restrained in a modern safety compliant child seat. The car is a modern vehicle, fitted with traction control, anti-lock braking system, airbags, safety-glass, crumple zones etc. And lets say the car is being driven at a sensible speed and with caution.

See just how different the risk factor is in each situation?

Now imagine car driver A announcing "Driving is a dangerous activity, so are lots of things in life". But see just how much different the risk factor can vary given suitable precautions?

In my humble opinion this is how I see the Buddy Seat. Yes riding is a dangerous activity, but I do not see that as a suitable reason to not take any precaution possible to lessen that risk factor. Yes life is dangerous, it would be an extremely boring existance if we were never to take risks, but why heighten that risk so greatly for such little pleasures?

Children and animals are notoriously unreliable. A friends daughter is learning to ride at the moment and regularly 'forgets' to hold on or do as she is told. Luckily there is someone there to re-balance her, and even if she were to slip off it is only a couple of feet to the ground from the small pony she rides. I dread to imagine the consequences of a small child tumbling from a larger horse, and perched behind you in such a way makes it almost impossible to supervise or assist them in any way.

I don’t disagree, that’s the whole point, there is a big difference in risk between

1) A not very god rider on a spooky horse with a child on the back not old/sensible enough to sit on the back as safely as is possible in a Buddy seat riding down the road.

2) A good rider on a well trained reliable horse (As much as is possible, no one is disagreeing that horses are not 100%) with a child old/sensible enough to be as safely as is possible in a Buddy seat walking in a quiet ménage.

But is there a difference in risk in a child in Buddy seat as opposed to a child on it’s own pony being led on foot or from another horse?

Yes you could argue two adults one leading and the other at the side to help the child if it needs it is safer, but that does not make the Buddy saddle the most dangerous option by far as is suggested by everyone except Jack who has some experience of leading a child on a pony from another horse.

I have nothing further to add to this point. There is significant substantiated evidence from leading veterinary authorities, that any weight or pressure on the lumbar region of the horses back should be avoided. If you choose to ignore this in favour of a cavalry practice that was used 200 years ago, that is your perogative.

My prerogative is to base my opinion on my knowledge of the horses exo-muscular system and the loads that are placed on it through riding be that gates or activities e.g. Jumping, Eventing, Dressage, reining etc and my knowledge of saddle fit the pressure required and duration etc that lead to compressed blood capillaries leading to low grade bruising and beyond, pressure points etc etc, horse breeds and confirmations etc and if I am in any doubt I will ask my friend the post grad lecturer on the subject about a specific example not a generalisation.

If your interested the Cavalry horses did suffer from pressure in the areas being discussed but it was over a period of time and they were carrying between 16-18 stone at all gates sometimes with soldiers in the saddle all day.

Do you know this?

Over 10 years ago the owner of a yard I was at was involved in looking for a Vaulting horse for a woman who was the mother of a member of the British team iirc.

The breed and confirmation of the horse was important as was the temperament, evenness and regularity of the gates, the horses used are hard to find and are very specialised and as such are usually kept for a long time.

If the pressure they experience during Vaulting (and I am not directly comparing them with the Buddy as they are not the same, depending on buddy seat use e.g just walking as opposed to just cantering and the surface area of feet as opposed to the buddy seat and duration of activity) the horses gate would be impeded, degrade and the horses would not be kept for as long as they are.

That’s all I l know about Vaulting I’m afraid.

But this thread is going nowhere(unless you have a baked goods fetish) so this will be my last post on the subject.

 

[sancho]

What about a loaf of granary? Not sure I could handle the cold, hard facts tbh.

Buddy Seat - does it have a strap to secure the offending ankle biter securely around the middle should the normally 100% horse get his or her knickers all twisty??

 

[mu0ljk]

I know some people don’t understand, I don’t think I can do much more to help them.

I understand exactly what you are saying thank you very much - I just don't agree with the conclusions you are making.

 

[Zingy]

2008 just under 3000 RTA deaths

Were all of these car drivers? Or were they also passengers, pedestrians, cyclists, motorcyclists and other road users who happened to be the victims of RTAs? Because if they are the latter, then the statistics prove nothing about how dangerous it is to drive a car, only how dangerous it is to be near someone who is

By contrast, can we assume all the horse rider deaths were riders or carriage drivers and not people who just happened to be passing at the time?

The thing with statistics is you have to be certain of comparing like with like if you're going to actually prove something other than the fact that you don't understand statistics

 

[qhlady]

Who needs a buddy seat? Get yourselves a nice square skirted western saddle, the child can sit on the skirt...legs get locked in under the cantle, if the main rider gets bucked off - the rider behind has a chance of sticking on and grabbing the reins to go back and pick up the dumped rider!

Seriously, this did happen to me.I got dumped in a snow bank. It was actually very funny, and the kind of idiot thing a couple of teenagers get themselves into. No we had no hats on, my glasses were steamed up and covered in snow, and had I landed two feet to the left I'd have lost my brain to a rock.

For Pete's sake... why is this thread still going on? I've ridden double plenty of times, english and western but PERSONALLY I hate buddy seats...I think they are seriously unstable, but I hate the baby seats on bicycles even more... and I see plenty of hippy dippy moms doing their bit for the environment riding a bike everywhere with their little precious strapped on the back. I'd walk a thousand miles with my baby in my arms before I'd strap them to the back of a bike then ride on the street.

I have had both my kids on my saddle with me, both in front and behind, and I can say for sure, that on my western square skirts the extra weight is distributed way better then the "larger" ladies I have seen cramming over- indulged backsides into too small english saddles. Now THERE is some serious lumbar pressure. As can be seen in the shape of the burdened beast when the saddle comes off...

It's the same as the hat debate, ride with one, ride without one. The risk is yours to take, none of my business. See how/where it sits on your horse. If you have a long backed horse, I wouldn't do it for extended periods of time, if you have a short back... not so bad. Either way, to actually cause lumbar damage you need extended pressure of "x" amount. A ten minute ride around the pasture a few times a week is not going to cripple any horse.

I would however practice with a small adult first,don't risk an inexperienced child. I had a horse that you could ride double all day and she'd not bat an eye, but I had another filly that never could bear the weight, even of my little boy as a three yr old... mares esp can be more sensitive around that region as their ovaries swell during heat periods and it would be unfair to add any pressure on top of that.

Enjoy whatever your doing with your horse and stop panicking about everything!

As for the bread question, forget sliced loaves ... by a bread maker... mmmmm fresh warm brown bread... heaven.

 

[Gimp]

As for the bread question, forget sliced loaves ... by a bread maker... mmmmm fresh warm brown bread... heaven.

statistics show however, that 0.4% of bread makers have been the main cause of house fires.

 

[kusha]

statistics show however, that 0.4% of bread makers have been the main cause of house fires.

LOL that's just finished me off!!

 

[qhlady]

love it... perhaps a circuit breaker to help?

 

[landcruiser]

well, it seems like an awful long time since I started this thread... Having taken all your opinions into account I think I'm going to skip the buddy seat and try to loan a leadrein pony. Having tried the buddy seat on ridden and seen it swing from side to side - and also seen how far back on his rump my boy would sit, I don't think it's a realistic option. I think my horse has quite a short back, so even with a tiny treeless the BS is way back.

As far as the safety thing goes though - I do think we are all a bit health and safety mad in the UK. I still can't see why a 6 year old kid behind his mum on a sensible 14.2 horse would be a big problem. I'm much more nervous about having him (and me) in a car doing 70mph on the M25 in rush hour - at risk of starting up the whole car thing again! But we make our own choices, for ourselves and our kids.

 

[western-saddler]

Treeless saddles are getting more popular and compared to a well fitting tree'd saddle the don't distribute the weight as well.

That really does depend on the treeless saddle, rider and horse. The treeless saddle has to fit, and if it does I have seen pressures from a Port Lewis, with a treeless where you would not think anyone had been riding at all! THe Port Lewis cannot show pressures that are not there, equally if a pressure is there it will not hide it. The treeless saddles do not work for all but they can indeed work very well for some.

I have to agree about the pressure in the wrong place. When vets and true experts are saying again and again not to put any weight in the unsupported area of the back behind the last rib, I tend to believe the 'experts'

Anybody know how long the bars are on a western saddle?

THat would depend on the western saddle...

Didn't the Fhoenix saddles go through exactly this sort of testing, though, and come out good ? I might have the wrong end of the stick, but I thought she'd been through all that and I'd seen the little coloured read-outs that showed good pressure readings ?

Yes they did - with the Pliance testing. They came out showing very good distribution.

I honestly can’t ever see a saddle without a tree getting close to treed saddles when you start jumping even if they could get close on flat work.

That’s not to say treeless are bad just don’t distribute the pressure as well.

I can honestly say that I have not seen one Pliance graph yet showing good weight distribution of ANY saddle while jumping!

I think unless you have found a breed of horse with ribs going all the way back under the buddy seat then, according to vets, physios and biomechanic 'experts' this saddle WILL do harm. How can it not? As was said earlier - even a saddle 1" too long causes problems - some horses are just more stoic than others.

The weakest part really cannot take pressure there and it is not dependent on breed or conformation (unless there is a new breed with infinite ribs that I am unaware of)? Some of the shorter backed horses may well be a little stronger in the loins but not strong enough to carry weight from the research I have read. I cannot comment on the cavalry horses as I have not seen their backs myself neither am I aware how long the horses ridden career lasted to be able to judge how the soldiers affected the horses. Same with the vaulting horse.

 

[old_woman]

I hate the baby seats on bicycles even more... and I see plenty of hippy dippy moms doing their bit for the environment riding a bike everywhere with their little precious strapped on the back. I'd walk a thousand miles with my baby in my arms before I'd strap them to the back of a bike then ride on the street.

I don't think the many millions (yes, millions) of bankers, academics, tradesmen, nurses, schoolteachers, mechanics, salesmen, shopkeepers, call-centre workers and other main-stream and even middle-aged or older members of the population of flattish cities of Northern Europe who ride bikes to and from work, shopping, commuting with the kids or grandkids, to go to the cinema etc etc etc on a daily basis would appreciate being referred to as 'hippy dippy moms' just because they have their kids, shopping, dogs etc with them on or in well-constructed, appropriately engineered carriers of some sort.

May I suggest that your being in a country where the car is seen as undisputed king of the road (sadly we in the UK aren't too far behind) might colour your views somewhat.

The shortage of oil IS going to and MUST have a major impact on the way we live in the not-too-distant future. You might be on a bike yourself before you know it.

 

[qhlady]

Oh dear somebody got their knickers in a twist eh?
Let me guess, you have/had or were raised in one?

Well, while I may be a proud American and drive a great big gas guzzling truck which I love, for your information I lived in the UK for a very long time, so I am VERY aware of what sort of people ride those death traps and strap their babies in, babies USUALLY without helmets, and sorry but my opinion stands.

This however is not a debate on those baby seats, it is a debate on the buddy seat, which I have also said I don't like so excuse me for not continuing to highjack somebody elses thread much as right now I'd really enjoy opening up a debate on all the ridiculous things we do as a society.

Don't assume you know a person because you see one thing written on an internet page... and don't for a second assume you know why I have a particular dislike of those damn bike seats.

I never said I didn't like BIKES. Never said I didn't RIDE bikes... have no problem with little dogs in baskets, no problem with SHOPPING ... DO HAVE A BIG fat problem when I see the HEAVY back end of the bike with child strapped in wobbling at slow speeds, and the fact that the parents who ride like that seem to think they have divine power on the road and the world will stop for them... unfortunately it doesn't always and SOMETIMES one of those MILLIONS get killed.

So, as they say in ole blighty... on yer bike dear.

 

[mikh]

Oh this has got to 6 pages, I don't know a buddy seat is but it must be interesting, off to start at pg 1