Aaaaaarrrrrggggggghhhhhhh!

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This might confuse a stupid person, I would also like to point out I was joking, and that elastic harness would, infact, not be "brilliant!" ;)
 
"Let my words be like vegetables, tender and sweet
For I may have to eat them in the morning"
I think I may have appeared to be a bit unfriendly and sarcastic and apologies for my behaviour. Safety whist driving a horse drawn vehicle is a bit of a passion of mine, due to my disability.
Here's anther clip of just what can go wrong http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sb6tF9MiHqY&feature=player_embedded
This is with grooms and they just didn't seem able to help help.
As to elastic, part of the Saddlechariots harness (not all) is made of elastic. This is for the comfort of the horse and for safety reasons as far as I can understand.
Quote from Mr Mulholland's web site
" Other safety factors include TIG welded stainless steel construction, and wide pneumatic tyres in case you are run over. I don't use spoked wheels because they are a death trap round kids. The ultra low centre of gravity, smooth surfaces, soft touch floor, breakaway harness and modern horsemanship, combine to give a totally modern approach to safety."
After some searching I finally found the utube clip in regards to Prince Philip. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j6sWpFM0CZY
In it he says " I taught myself to drive the team with the stalking ponies at Balmoral" It seems to be "The Team" he taught himself to drive not driving it's self. So I expect he did indeed learn to drive from some very expert people.
His daughter has seen the Saddlechariot. Here's a further quote from Mr Mulholland's website
"This picture shows Princess Anne looking at the Saddlechariot back in approximately 2003. She was informed, educated and interested, and suggested I shouldn't show the Saddlechariot to her father. I asked if he would disapprove, and she said "No, he would buy one."
Wally quote" If I had a SC there is nothing I would really change in my every day driving safety routine. ......but lots I would add! It's the idea that is put forward, that you don;t need to pay any attention to everyday driving safety that really worries me." Maybe you didn't read what is now on Mr Mulholland's site. As I first saw the site this summer, I am don't know what was there before. I can find no reference to anything saying one doesn't need to pay attention to everyday driving safety. The whole idea of a Saddlechariot IS everyday driving safety. That is why it was invented. There does seem to be advice about learning to drive, getting to know your horse/pony and practicing in a safe place first. Might I respectfully advice for those of you who are interested in driving safely for both horse and driver, a further look at the site.
If there is then any questions you are still not sure about maybe you could post them here as I really would be interested. If I'm drive again I want it to be as safe as possible for both the horse and me. If anyone can think of a reason why I should not drive a Saddlechariot then please tell me. The most important thing to me is that I never harm a horse or anyone else intentionally, which I'm sure is important to us all.
 
"Let my words be like vegetables, tender and sweet for I may have to eat them in the morning"

:D I like that :D

I have a saddlechariot (currently on loan to a friend) and love the whole idea (obviously - I bought one!)

Unfortunately because I havent had anyone to help me with the training of the lovely (but distrustful and prone to spooking, especially I subsequently found, at things coming up behind her :rolleyes:) Rosie, this means we never got very far despite having long reined incessantly, dragging the bloody thing behind me with my neighbours shouting 'oi isnt the horse meant to pull that!!!!' (yeah yeah very funny!) I needed another person to progress to the hooking up and moving forward bit and didnt have one. On a sensibler horse I might have done it alone, but didnt have one of those either :p

My current plan is to swap the shafts and harness and teach my mini shetland to drive in it - am planning to grow my arms slightly longer to acheive this, or my coach knows someone who does both driving and natural horsemanship so we may be going on a little holiday :D

Im threatening to ramble so will get to what I think is my point. I do beleive that the saddlechariot is safe, a great idea and loads of fun. I beleive this to the extent that I put my money where my mouth is. It is not an alternative to riding on a mad horse. Now i am fixing my mad horse we would be much better placed to teach her to drive, but of course, I am having so much fun riding, i dont have the time to start again! Tradition style carriages etc just never floated my boat - didnt appeal to me at all. If you want to drive, the saddlechariot is great but make sure you are getting one for the right reasons :D and personally I think the additional safety features and the fact it looks like a blast, are pretty good ones but you have to have a sensible horse - this of course applies to ANY driving. Best of luck :D
 
Annareeves is probably the epitome of the blind leading the blind to the saddle chariot shop. :D All that advice, yet she has never had her horse to her chariot, and it's out on loan to a friend. :rolleyes:

My main objections to the SC are the safety issues involved in driving without a groom, or, indeed, without any prior training/experience, and the quick release system from which MR. M's adherants take such confidence. They seem to truly believe it is wise to release a horse from a moving vehicle. There seems to be this belief among the SC bods that a horse will just stop immediately it is released from the SC, regardless of what caused it to take fright initially.

The reality is more likely either to go nose surfing, or let the horse go to meet whatever fate could be in store for a bolting horse, with harness trailing, in today's environment.

Buyers of the SC seem to think it is a short cut to driving an equine without having to go through all that boring learning and preparation, and the horse doesn't have to know that much either, because if it all goes pear-shaped you can always just pull the ripchord.........can't you?

Driving without a groom is not only foolhardy, it is downright stupid. Any horse can suddenly take fright when being driven, regardless of the level of its experience, or that of the whip. That horse instantly becomes a danger to anyone in its path. As can be seen by this thread alone, there are many dangers to other horses and riders/whips which can arise from a simple mistake or mishap by one person or one horse.

Why do SC enthusiasts think they have something which will exclude them from such scenarios.

Perhaps the secret is not the partly elestic harness..........could it be that the chariots are annointed with special water at point of manufacture, or blessed by the head honcho himself? Maybe the answer is in the bliss of ignorance.
 
" Other safety factors include TIG welded stainless steel construction, and wide pneumatic tyres in case you are run over.

WHAAT? I thought the whole idea is you pull therip cord and all is well. How in the name of Clarence the Cross eyed lion are you supposed to run over yourself in a cart? As for running any one else over, I think the hoof prints in their back might make them a bit cross!
 
Having had Mr. Mulholland phone up my insurance company and claim that my website broght them into disrepute, I don't wish to have any further dealings with him.

It seems if you hold a contrary view to him, he makes life very unplesent for you.

I also have friends who have bought the contraptions and are only too pleased to get rid. They too had unplesent dealings with him.
 
WHAAT? I thought the whole idea is you pull therip cord and all is well. How in the name of Clarence the Cross eyed lion are you supposed to run over yourself in a cart? As for running any one else over, I think the hoof prints in their back might make them a bit cross!



I personally think it takes the fun out of carriage driving! It looks like some botch job effort in the videos, and the harness looks scruffy and yack. I like to try and look somewhat semi posh when out and about!

I think the website is awful to be honest :eek: and rather odd ideas!

I would rather invest in a real carriage
 
Oh dear, I see that AengasOg hasn't look at Mr Mulholland's site, or my last post. In my last post I gave a link to driving with several grooms and they were unable to do anything to help what looked like a really nasty situation. By all means drive with a groom if you feel unable to deal with driving alone.
I'm not sure what drivers of the old milk cart or ploughs would have to say to this, but I can imagine. In many parts of the world horses are often driven by one person, in fact the UN is now urging getting animals back to work world wide.
Here's a link if you're interested http://www.fao.org/ag/ags/agse/chapterps1/chapterps1-e.htm
It doesn't seem to be just in developing counties, infact there is a lead on the web page to a university in Scotland.
As to "Why do SC enthusiasts think they have something which will exclude them from such scenarios"
I wonder where you get that idea from. It is an added safety precaution and should be treated as such, which is what is advised about Saddlechariots by the inventor.
I take it that the groom's job is to assist the driver in the event of an accident ? Once a horse gets really scared and bolts how is that possible ? I really would like to know. Neither Prince Philip, or the driver in the first clip I provided seem to be able to do it even with the help of grooms. From my experience horses seem to be able to run a great deal faster that us. With a Saddlechariot if the release rope is pulled, it doesn't mean the driver just lets the horse go any more than a driver with a groom would.
Having now attended my second Saddlechariot demo/teaching day, we spent most of the time learning about horse handling and driving. It was certainly not the case of just taking off and bombing round a field, clutching the release rope thinking that's all that was needed.
Saddlechariots can now be used by two people, with wheelchairs, with harrows (with someone walking rather than driving), with a wagon, with more ideas in the pipe line.
As hoof marks and backs, well surely the clips in my last post proves that accidents happen, even with an experienced man like Prince Philip. Surely with those of us who put safety first the type of tire used in a Saddlechariot can do less damage than a traditional one?
Quote "It looks like some botch job effort in the videos, and the harness looks scruffy and yack". Did you mean yuck or yack? IMHO the harness looks fine. Former Animal Welfare Minister Ben Bradshaw seemed to think so too, at least when I met him on the 20th September this year, he didn't say other wise and infact seemed quite impressed with Saddlechariots. I enclose a photo of him, which shows most of the harness.
If anyone wants to drive semi posh way, that is their choice.
For my self I want to drive for pleasure, and am not really bothered so much by the look, but I am bothered about safety, and again I ask if anyone has any comment to make about thier safety I really need to know.
 

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The groom is there to prevent a situation turning nasty. Most folk don't drive a team through obstacles.

Does Ben Bradshaw drive to any level?
 
By all means drive with a groom if you feel unable to deal with driving alone.

Really, I think that is one of the most pompous and condescending remarks I have ever come across.

I am willing to accept the argument that whether or not you drive with a groom is a matter of choice and, perhaps, circumstances. I admit I have done so occasionally, though fully conscious of the risks. I would never recommend, or even suggest, it to anyone.

However, to imply it is a matter of competance is dangerously stupid, rather like kids playing chicken on the roads. The sort of thing lads dare each other after too much to drink.

So then, no - I'll take a stand against such misguided (for want of a stronger word) peer pressure and say that I am proud to admit I do feel unable to deal with driving alone, because things can happen and my life, my pony's life and other people's lives all matter to me. So, Ari Rox, put that in your pipe and smoke it.
 
Oooh Ari rox, you are a nippy sweetie, aren't you?

With a Saddlechariot if the release rope is pulled, it doesn't mean the driver just lets the horse go any more than a driver with a groom would. .

So what does the 'driver' do then, or perhaps I should ask.....what does Mr. Mulholland say the driver should do, having pulled the release rope?............bearing in mind that none of us can run faster than a horse.

I have indeed looked at Mr. M's site. He has a an attitude very like your own, if I remember correctly from his previous ramblings. Or is he now a reformed character?
 
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Last time I tried to get sense out of Ben Bradshaw was like drawing teeth.
 
Oh dear, I see that AengasOg hasn't look at Mr Mulholland's site, or my last post. In my last post I gave a link to driving with several grooms and they were unable to do anything to help what looked like a really nasty situation. By all means drive with a groom if you feel unable to deal with driving alone.
I'm not sure what drivers of the old milk cart or ploughs would have to say to this, but I can imagine. In many parts of the world horses are often driven by one person, in fact the UN is now urging getting animals back to work world wide.
Here's a link if you're interested http://www.fao.org/ag/ags/agse/chapterps1/chapterps1-e.htm
It doesn't seem to be just in developing counties, infact there is a lead on the web page to a university in Scotland.
As to "Why do SC enthusiasts think they have something which will exclude them from such scenarios"
I wonder where you get that idea from. It is an added safety precaution and should be treated as such, which is what is advised about Saddlechariots by the inventor.
I take it that the groom's job is to assist the driver in the event of an accident ? Once a horse gets really scared and bolts how is that possible ? I really would like to know. Neither Prince Philip, or the driver in the first clip I provided seem to be able to do it even with the help of grooms. From my experience horses seem to be able to run a great deal faster that us. With a Saddlechariot if the release rope is pulled, it doesn't mean the driver just lets the horse go any more than a driver with a groom would.
Having now attended my second Saddlechariot demo/teaching day, we spent most of the time learning about horse handling and driving. It was certainly not the case of just taking off and bombing round a field, clutching the release rope thinking that's all that was needed.
Saddlechariots can now be used by two people, with wheelchairs, with harrows (with someone walking rather than driving), with a wagon, with more ideas in the pipe line.
As hoof marks and backs, well surely the clips in my last post proves that accidents happen, even with an experienced man like Prince Philip. Surely with those of us who put safety first the type of tire used in a Saddlechariot can do less damage than a traditional one?
Quote "It looks like some botch job effort in the videos, and the harness looks scruffy and yack". Did you mean yuck or yack? IMHO the harness looks fine. Former Animal Welfare Minister Ben Bradshaw seemed to think so too, at least when I met him on the 20th September this year, he didn't say other wise and infact seemed quite impressed with Saddlechariots. I enclose a photo of him, which shows most of the harness.
If anyone wants to drive semi posh way, that is their choice.
For my self I want to drive for pleasure, and am not really bothered so much by the look, but I am bothered about safety, and again I ask if anyone has any comment to make about thier safety I really need to know.


lol !:rolleyes:

By all means drive with a groom if you feel unable to deal with driving alone.


Some people you are trying to overtalk, are highly experienced carriage folk. I'm afraid to say some of the comments your coming out with make you look rather comical!

Oh and I did mean YACK !! It looks like its made out of old Rope,pulleys, pipes and lagging!
 
Hello again everyone, I do seem to be popular as the last four remakes seem to be aimed at me. Gee girls, thank you so much. you've made my morning! There's nothing I like better than a really good discussion. Keep it coming!
Wally
"The groom is there to prevent a situation turning nasty. Most folk don't drive a team through obstacles.
Does Ben Bradshaw drive to any level?"
Not having driven at a competitive level or with a groom I must bow to your superior knowledge. It must be great to have a groom, for just the reason you point out. Grooms can't always stop a situation from turning nasty, but I can see that in some situations they could be of great use.
I guess there are other things they are useful for too, such as opening gates, helping one in and out of a carriage, or holding the horses/horse while the driver is busy with other things. Please correct me if I'm wrong. Could you please tell me what else they do, or but I'll understand if you don't have time right now, or this isn't the place.
I had sort of guess that most folk do try to avoid driving a team through obstacles, but thank you for pointing it out. As to Ben Bradshaw's driving ability's last time I saw him he was on a bicycle. He did see to be very good at it, but I will put your question to him as soon as I see him again.
He really is one of the most helpful and charming politician amongst the many I have met, so I'm sure that if I explain why he will be happy to let you know.
Sparky Lily.
I'm sorry if you see my remark as condescending. I can assure you it was not meant to be taken in that way. What I wrote is " In my last post I gave a link to driving with several grooms and they were unable to do anything to help what looked like a really nasty situation. By all means drive with a groom if you feel unable to deal with driving alone." I was referring AengasOg's comment
" Driving without a groom is not only foolhardy, it is downright stupid." not trying to suggest that AengasOg's driving abilities necessitates a groom, if that's what you thought I meant. I will try to be clearer in future
"I am willing to accept the argument that whether or not you drive with a groom is a matter of choice and, perhaps, circumstances. I admit I have done so occasionally, though fully conscious of the risks. I would never recommend, or even suggest, it to anyone."
Please accept the fact that I am not suggesting that one must, or should drive alone either. In fact if I could find some willing helper to enable me to drive, alone or with help, I would be over the moon to have that chance. So far, apart from Mr Mulholland no one has offered me that chance. How does someone who is as disabled as me get the chance to drive safely?
"So then, no - I'll take a stand against such misguided (for want of a stronger word) peer pressure and say that I am proud to admit I do feel unable to deal with driving alone, because things can happen and my life, my pony's life and other people's lives all matter to me. So, Ari Rox, put that in your pipe and smoke it." Um oh dear, I never meant to cause such upset, right at the start of my postings on this thread I stated
" I am now a wheelchair user and there is a version of the Saddlechariot for just this purpose, if there is some danger in using a Saddlechariot then I really would like to know. Surely I would be safer using something with a quick release system than something without ?".
Further to that statement I would like to add, once the NHS have sorted out the pain I am now in whenever I bend one of my legs, or it gets bounced around in any way I will try driving again. The pain is the result of not only having caught polio which left me unable to use one leg, but breaking that leg in May. Unforunatly I also twisted the knee.............. sorry this really isn't about my problems is it? As to smoking and pipes, perhaps there is a more polite way of putting it, but I get the point.

I'm a bit pushed for time right now but will try to answer AengasOg's comments soon, but I'm not sure at all what Frances meant. Perhaps Frances would like to explain further? And please could Wally explain in what way Ben Bradshaw led you to making that comment?
 
I would love to see a saddle Chariot attempt the trials that you have linked, It would be an interesting experiment, what with the low ground clearance oversized wheels and single person, I have 100% belief that if it even made it round a course in the case of an accident, it is better to have many hands to help and okay on the odd occasion groom and driver fall off, but at least the odds are better if you have someone else on there to balance and bump the vehicle.

I personally always have company of some form when I drive out, horses are unpredictible and can take fright and personally I would rather have a good groom who jumps off and to the horses head BEFORE they get themselves into such a blind panic that they need to bolt.

The benefit in this scenario is that with a groom at their head you can safely pull your quick releases (on a traditional harness) and voila horse is free with no harness to damage it and normally nice and calm as the assistance of the groom has allowed you to stop the situation escalating.

As for accidents, I have been driving for two years and have seen only one minor accident. Good training and suitable harness and carriage setup definatly help avoid most problems, and a groom is certainly useful.
 
"I would love to see a saddle Chariot attempt the trials that you have linked"
Brillent:) Where, when, name you place and time and I'll try to arrrange something. As I'm not sure the two place mentioned in the link would be very practical, I think one was in Germany and I'm not sure that the one Prince Philip drove on would be available perhaps somewhere else would be better ?
 
this thread has made me laugh-- you guys are so-o-o witty and funny in your comments. now, i am very live and let live, my philosophy being that if 2 poeple have strong opinions on something, its a waste of time to argue the point, as niether one is going to change thier opinion. however, i cant resist voicing my opinion; judging from the pictures, i personally dont want a saddlechariot, why? firstly, because to me it is ugly; it reminds me of a cut down car that i saw someone use years ago as a car trailer. it also appears very unwieldy from the horses point of view, ie it looks like it would be to bulky and draggy somehow. i prefer my elegant looking ( im sure others will disagree) old style exercise cart with bike springs behind the seat, because it has clean lines, and it is very comfortable. i have spent hours in a chariot which the man who trained my horse for me used as a training vehichle, after the pallet, and before a cart proper. it was built along the lines of an exercise cart, but no seat, a standing platform over the axle, and a front bar at waist high. he used it so that in an emergency, you were already standing and so could jump off to get to the horses head even quicker . but it was really not as comfortable or enjoyable as a nice sprung seat!! very hard on the ribcage and back, and it was well padded, and had room for 2 people to stand in it, ( i would liken it to the choice of sitting or standing when using public transport; if we have to use it, we would far prefer to travel sat on seat) .. as to having a groom, i think that is the most essential piece of kit a carriage driver needs; to me it is an equal partnership, me-the driver, the horse , and the groom- we all have imporant and equal parts to play in an enjoyabe and safe time out in the cart/carriage-- most of us have to make compromises, and try to be as safe as possible. i drive mostly not coachman stlye, but always with a groom. i would hazard a guess that , skills being otherwise equel, we are probably as safe as, if not safer, than a coachman style driver, who did not have a groom to go to the horses head in a crisis, which can ussually be avoided by anticipating and reacting quickly, by the groom going to the horses head. i do consider myself to be a competant driver,( there are others far better, and others far , far worse) but i really would not like to drive in one of those saddlechariots; i imagine the only real or valid use for the quick release would be after the crisis, when you needed to get the panicked or injured horse untangled from the equipment. to release a panicked horse into the situation that had probably caused the panic, would be very irresponsible and potentially lethal to horse and human. my take on it , therefore, is save the cost of purchasing one, and use the money to hire a groom, if one cant be found to help for free.
 
I'm not sure pneumatics are allowed in driving trials! :D :D
 
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